Which Points of Calvinism Do You Believe?

[psalms109:31]

5 points

the 5 points can be very supported by scripture, but like anything that comes from man it is incomplete work. The scripture is the only complete work of God.

Matthew 11:25At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

So how does the Father draw us, simple through the words of Jesus

John 14:24
He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Since we are the hands and the feet of God and His messenger we carry the drawing power.

We are dead so where does the Spirit and life come from so we can chose God, simple the words of Jesus

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are Spirit and they are life.

It is God who chooses who He is going to save so who has he chosen to save.

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD.

This holds truth to this scripture

Romans 10:11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

Don't worry if you are the elect of God or not just trust in His word.

Romans 10:11
As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in Him will never be put to shame."

 

[TCGreek]

Under your disavowal of Total Depravity I noted that you completely failed to come to grips with Eph. 2:1 ; Eph. 4:18 ; Col. 2:13 and 1 Cor. 2:14 for starters . So your "refutation" is not so compelling . I'd like to know how you explain this . Everyone has a natural antipathy toward God . We are at enmity toward Him , hostile in our minds . We are slaves to sin . Please tell me how your "free-will" was able to overcome all that .

On another matter you think Calvinism teaches that God picks those of His choosing -- "solely according to His will ." You have a vehemence toward that last item . Why ? Everything is done according to His will . Why would any Christian disagree with that ?

You think that God's election is unfair . I know you are a newbie , but come on . Salvation is granted to those of His choosing . It is not a matter of justice (for justice is fairness ) . Every human deserves condemnation . That's justice for ya' . You can't blame God for choosing to save those He wants . It is His perfect right . He's God ! Further , He hardens the rest because it is His will to do so .

You have spoken for me too:thumbs:

 

[Rippon]

Mr. Ps. , The so-called 5 points are not ( and were not ) intended to be a complete work . The propositions were specifically addressing the 5 points of the Remonstrants .

I agree that only Scripture is complete -- no man-made document -- no matter how faithful it is to Scripture is complete . Having said that though , the Canons of Dort are rather comprehensive with the subjects they were treating . They are more full-orbed than just the bare TULIP acronym .

You mentioned something that was unsettling . You said that "we carry the drawing power ." No , we do not . Only the Father draws . Consult the 6th chapter of John .

You said ; " Don't worry if you are the elect of God or not ." I beg your pardon ?! See 2 Corinthians 13:5 -- Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith ; test yourselves . 2 Peter 1:10 -- ... be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure .

 

[psalms109:31]

I have read the canons of dort just like any man, who is short of the glory of God. Only sees part of the truth.

God has not inclined our heart to believe but gave us two roads to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned.

How our we given this life to make the choice of roads by the Life and Spirit that is in the words of Jesus.

Without the words of Jesus i agree with calvinist, three is no hope for us.

You mentioned something that was unsettling . You said that "we carry the drawing power ." No , we do not . Only the Father draws . Consult the 6th chapter of John .

As the scripture says

2 Corinthians 5:16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

I like John 6 people like many was not drawn to Jesus by the Father, they were just following the crowd. It is easier to follow the crowd, but I cannot. I follow Jesus. It was His words that the Father used to draw me.

You said ; " Don't worry if you are the elect of God or not ." I beg your pardon ?! See 2 Corinthians 13:5 -- Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith ; test yourselves . 2 Peter 1:10 -- ... be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure .

If you trust in Jesus you will not be dissappointed if you don't you need to examine yourself. Trusting in Jesus your election is sure

 

[TCGreek]

Mr. Ps. , The so-called 5 points are not ( and were not ) intended to be a complete work . The propositions were specifically addressing the 5 points of the Remonstrants .

I agree that only Scripture is complete -- no man-made document -- no matter how faithful it is to Scripture is complete . Having said that though , the Canons of Dort are rather comprehensive with the subjects they were treating . They are more full-orbed than just the bare TULIP acronym .

And this is the case historically. As you know Rippon, the acronym can be a bit misleading, but like any other acronym, it is to aid the memory and not set in stone.

You mentioned something that was unsettling . You said that "we carry the drawing power ." No , we do not . Only the Father draws . Consult the 6th chapter of John .

You said ; " Don't worry if you are the elect of God or not ." I beg your pardon ?! See 2 Corinthians 13:5 -- Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith ; test yourselves . 2 Peter 1:10 -- ... be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure .

To subscribe to the five points of Calvinism does not mean a person is antinominian. Thanks for stressing our human responsibility. People who do not understand Calvinism fail to take that into consideration, and as a result create many caricatures.:thumbs:

 

[Rippon]

Snippets From The NIV

Mr. Ps. : Again , the Canons of Dort were not meant to be all-comprehensive . The document dealt with specific themes . It did not pretend to address all the counsel of God . The authors of the 5 propositions were countering the 5 propositional claims of the Remonstrants ( Arminians ) . Therefore rthe subject matter was focused and limited in its scope ( sounds like I'm speaking of specific redemption here , but I'm not ) .

I tend to doubt that you have seriously read the Canons of Dort Mr. Ps.

Once more you have come up with a gem . Another quote of yours : " God has not inclined our hearts to believe but gave us two roads to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned ."

First of all you do not appreciate the severity of depravity . . We were slaves of depravity ( 2 Pe. 2:19 ) . The sinful mind is hostile toward God ( Ro. 8:7 ) . Outside of Christ all of us are alienated from God -- enemies in our minds toward Him ( Col. 1:21 ) . As unsaved we are controlled by the sinful nature and cannot please God ( Ro. 8:8 ) . Ephesians 4:18 says that we were darkened in our understanding and separated from the life of God .

Secondly , when saved God does a whole lot more than you are inclined ( pun intended ) to believe . The LORD opens hearts ( Acts 16:14 ) . He has made His light shine in our hearts ( 2 Cor. 4;6 ) . He made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions . ( Eph. 2:5 ) . In another passage in Ephesians ( 2:13 ) ; it says that you who were once far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ . In Col. 1:13 it tells us that He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son .

So for those predestined to life eternal -- the elect ones -- the LORD has indeed done far more than you have imagined . You don't even think that He inclines our hearts to believe . But after examining all of the above verses you have to acknowledge that He does more than you have stated .

 

[psalms109:31]

Art 6 canon of Dort
In accordance with this decision he graciously softens the hearts, however hard, of his chosen ones and inclines them to believe, but by his just judgment he leaves in their wickedness and hardness of heart those who have not been chosen.

That was true in the old testiment. In the hope that Jesus brings whosoever can join, anyone. Through the words of Jesus we can believe and be saved or not and be condemned. The door was not opened to the world until Jesus was lifted up and He poured the Holy Spirit back to the earth. Like I said I agree with calvinist all the way. Until Jesus words came.

God had harden the hearts of men to to bring everything to happen to bring Jesus into the world and to make all scripture point to Him for salvation, now through Jesus salvation has come to all men. His word tells us only believers in His Son will be saved, and whosever can join

I agree with total depravity, without the Spirit that is in the words of Jesus we have no life to make a choice, but the words of Jesus changed that.

The Holy Spirit we were depraved of , but now God had sent Him back to the earth that we are temple's of. Now the Holy Spirit is right at our door of our heart asking to come in and anyone who opens the door He will come in. What we was depraved off God after Jesus sat on the right hand of God and at penticost the Holy Spirit the world was depraved of was sent back.

You living in the past Jesus has given a hope to the world that it never had before, and we are messengers of the good news.

Hebrews 7:18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

The Jews were predestined before even the foundation of the world, but they were cut out for unbelief. We who are not jews are included with the believing Jews when we heard the gospel of our salvation having believed.

There is many groups of people being saved and they are believers.

Romans 11:
19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Ephesians 1:13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Hebrews 3:
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."

16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved ]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Matthew 23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

God wants to save them, it isn't He that isn't willing but them.

 

[Lou Martuneac]

...perseverence of the saints and eternal security since the two doctrines differ.

Agreeing here, but let me add:

In regard to eternal security the Bible is clear. Security has nothing to do with persevering; it is about the preserving power of God. In regard to those who are genuinely born again the Bible says,

John 10:28-29 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise.

A saved man’s eternal security, his assurance and position in Christ are not dependent on how he performs as a Christian. He is saved and secure because of what Christ has done for him.


LM

 

[Lou Martuneac]

I voted "none" since the terms aren't defined.

Reluctant to vote for the same reason. Just the first entry alone "Total Depravity" does not really convey what this first of the five points (T-U-L-I-P) stands for.

I would replace it with "Total Inability," then define that term


LM

 

[Lou Martuneac]

Which points of Calvinism do you believe?

I included both perseverence of the saints and eternal security since the two doctrines differ.

Eternal security is not necessarily a Calvinistic doctrine, and it is not part of the classic points or definitions of the system.


LM

 

[Lou Martuneac]

My Vote...

Which points of Calvinism do you believe?

I reject all five points of Calvinism as I understand them.

Calvinism embraces a rationalistic fatalism rather than biblical faith approach to theology:

Rationalistic fatalism is understandable in light of dictionary usage. According to Franklin's Dictionary & Thesaurus, “rationalistic” is literally: “reliance on reason as the basis for the establishment of religious truth,” and “fatalism” is the “belief that fate determines events.” Of course “fate” is a cause beyond human control to determine. Looking at the statement in this light demonstrates that those referred to rely on reason rather than revelation as the basis for their theological moorings.

The “circle logic” of five-point Calvinism is just that for the whole system crumbles when a single link in the chain is broken. One must approach the system with reason rather than faith. This of course leads to the fatalism just mentioned, which holds that God has predetermined the destiny of all human souls and that all the witnessing, praying, and missionary effort in the world will not change the outcome.

LM

 

[TCGreek]

I reject all five points of Calvinism as I understand them.

Calvinism embraces a rationalistic fatalism rather than biblical faith approach to theology:LM

To charge Calvinism with rationalistic fatalism is nothing new. The Remonstrants were not successful, Wesley was not sucessful, Finney was not, et al.

If one cannot use reason as he approaches Scripture what then can he use. To say that Calvinism crumbles if one point is removed because it is logic based system is to miss the point; you have created a strawman argument.

Opponents of Calvinism are often guilty of creating caricatures. Demonstrate from Scripture that Calvinism is not biblical. By the way, are you going to use logic to do so? Are you going to systematize? I wonder.

 

[Lou Martuneac]

To charge Calvinism with rationalistic fatalism is nothing new. The Remonstrants were not successful, Wesley was not successful, Finney was not, et al.

If one cannot use reason as he approaches Scripture what then can he use.

TCG:

Success is not the point, the 5 points are derived at by a rationalistic fatalism, and nothing can change this fact. You asked, “If one cannot use reason as he approaches Scripture what then can he use?” Answer, “…reason rather than revelation is the basis for Calvinism's theological moorings!”

A Limited Atonement or Particular Redemption is the most controversial of the five points. A limited atonement is difficult for many Calvinists to accept. Many in the Reformed camp back away from this point of Calvinism Many of the five-pointers would consider those who do not fully embrace a limited atonement as falling short of being a true Calvinist.

The five point Calvinist says Christ died only for the elect; the shed blood of Christ and His atoning work on the cross was intended only for the select group chosen for salvation. The five point Calvinist believes the shed blood of Jesus and His atoning death was not meant for and is insufficient for the whole of the world’s population.

You may hear expressions such as, “Christ’s atonement was sufficient for all, but efficient only for genuine believers.” More than any of the other five points this one is inconsistent with many Scriptures that plainly contradict a limited atonement. The power and reach of the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ simply knows no limits.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1 John 2:2 And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

In the following verse (Isaiah 53:6) you read the word. “all.” It appears twice: once at the beginning and at the end of the verse. The first appearance speaks to the fact of universal sin. All mankind is lost and in sin. The second appearance speaks to the fact of the sins of the whole world were laid on Christ. Jesus Christ bore and died for the sins of the whole world. His atoning death was not a limited act. His salvation is available to all, but only imparted to those who receive Him by faith.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Only by coming to the Bible with the trappings of logic and human reasoning can Jn. 3:16; 1 Jn. 2:2, Is. 53:6 be undone and reinterpreted to arrive at a limited atonement.

Only by coming to the Bible with the trappings of logic and human reasoning can a man force into, or extract from these passages something other than what they plainly convey to invent Calvinism’s Limited Atonement.

For more on this and additional problems with Calvinism read, The Dangers of Reformed Theology.


LM

 

[Rippon]

Lou , months ago you said the same strange line as you now have said again : " A limited atonement is difficult for many Calvinists to accept."

Lou , how wierd is that idea of yours ? A Calvinist by definition believes all five points and much , much more from the Word of God . Why would anyone call themself a Calvinist and deny this core biblical teaching ? Why would they bother to call themsef a Calvinist in the first place ?

Please cite any Calvinist who believes that Christ's atoning sacrifice would have been insufficient for the whole of the earth's population ?! Can't document one ? Then withdraw such a silly charge .

 

[TCGreek]

TCG:

Success is not the point, the 5 points are derived at by a rationalistic fatalism, and nothing can change this fact. You asked, “If one cannot use reason as he approaches Scripture what then can he use?” Answer, “…reason rather than revelation is the basis for Calvinism's theological moorings!”

I know that Rationalism as an epistemology has failed. I know Empiricism as an epistemology has failed. I know that Revelation is the true means of knowing God and praising Him. But I ask you one thing, "Don't we have to use reason/mind, not as an end in itself, to understand Revelation?" That is what the Bible seems to indicate (2 Tim 2:7, 15).

We can go into a forum debate over the five points of Calvinism and all the historical arguments as to why it is dangerous. We can do that. But neither you or I, on this forum, would ever come to an argument. You know what the books are that defends Calvinism; maybe you have read them all.

 

[Rippon]

Lou , Calvinists believe in the Revelation of the Word of God . We use our God-given minds to study it . The LORD has endowed His saved ones with reasoning skills . We are encouraged to be Bereans as Acts 17:11 admonishes us .
What you you have ? Professing Christians bragging that they were not using their minds ? Do you want saints to rejoice that they don't reason ? That does not sound reasonable to me

 

[Lou Martuneac]

Dangerous Teaching

I am going to revisit this another time since I have to head out for the 4th.

For now, try this:

The Danger of Teaching that Christ Died Only for the Elect.


LM

 

[npetreley]

I am going to revisit this another time since I have to head out for the 4th.

For now, try this:

The Danger of Teaching that Christ Died Only for the Elect.


LM

It's the tired old appeal to emotions. So what if the free-willer can be consistent with his own soteriology when saying, "Jesus died for everyone". The question isn't whether or not it sounds better. The question is whether or not it is true. If the truth is that Jesus died only for the elect, then you can't change that by going into denial and saying, "Jesus died for everyone."

Why not simply say, "if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." That is always true whether or not you believe in limited atonement.

 

[Lou Martuneac]

Replacement Sentence

Men:

I wrote, “The five point Calvinist believes the shed blood of Jesus and His atoning death was not meant for and is insufficient for the whole of the world’s population.”

Apologies, my bad. I did not thoroughly proof my earlier post. Here is my replacement for the sentence above definition of Calvinism’s Limited Atonement

“Calvinism’s Limited Atonement views Christ's redeeming work as intended to save the ONLY the elect. This means Christ’s substitutionary death paid the penalty of sin ONLY for certain specified sinners, and not for the sins of all mankind past, present and future.”

The balance of my post #133 I stand by 100%.


LM

 

[Major B]

If one embraces Calvinism, he must by definition embrace all the points.
There's no such animal as a 3- or 4-point Calvinists.

What they are are non-Calvinists at best, Arminians at worst.

Richard Baxter, the Puritan, and many others, have had trouble with limited atonement.

I like J.I.Packer's formulation that there are not five points, only one--God Saves Sinners