Which view really exalts man?

[webdog]

If I had a quarter for each time I heard or was told my views on soteriology exalt man, I would be a lot closer to retirement.

I see Christ's atonement appeasing God's wrath against sin, death and the curse, man not perishing for want of payment of sin, but for rejection. Christ is the only one able to pay an infinite penalty against the Father, and He did just that.

The limited atoners believe Christ payed for the sin of the "elect", with the reprobate also making their payment for sin in hell for eternity. This means God is satisfied with both payments, hence elevating the lost's payment on par with Christs pertaining expiation.

Who's view really elevates man more, the one that believes only Christ is able to make sufficient payment for sin...or the one that teaches both man and Christ equally pay for the same thing equally satisfying the offended?

 

[Havensdad]

If I had a quarter for each time I heard or was told my views on soteriology exalt man, I would closer to retirement.

I see Christ's atonement appeasing God's wrath against sin, death and the curse, man not perishing for want of payment, but for rejection. Christ is the only one able to pay an infinite penalty against the Father, and He did just that.

The limited atoners believe Christ payed for the "elect", with the reprobate also making their payment in hell for eternity. This means God is satisfied with both payments, hence elevating the lost's payment on par with Christs pertaining expeation.

Who's view really elevates man more, the one that believes only Christ is able to make sufficient payment...or the one that teaches both man and Christ equally pay for the same thing?

The one that impugns God's righteous character, and accuses Him of punishing men who have had their sins paid for in full, rather than admit men are weak, and pitiful, and incapable of helping themselves...and conversely, that God is powerful and sovereign, and in control of all things.

 

[webdog]

The one that impugns God's righteous character, and accuses Him of punishing men who have had their sins paid for in full, rather than admit men are weak, and pitiful, and incapable of helping themselves...and conversely, that God is powerful and sovereign, and in control of all things.

Now do you care to discuss the topic of the thread instead of inserting the typical pejorative laden red herrings? Struck a nerve, did I?

 

[AresMan]

Who's view really elevates man more, the one that believes only Christ is able to make sufficient payment for sin...or the one that teaches both man and Christ equally pay for the same thing equally satisfying the offended?

They're not equal because Christ sufficiently and efficiently purchased the Church/elect/sheep with His own blood. He is of infinite worth. The reprobate, "paying" for his sins in hell can never do so sufficiently, hence eternal punishment.

 

[webdog]

They're not equal because Christ sufficiently and efficiently purchased the Church/elect/sheep with His own blood. He is of infinite worth. The reprobate, "paying" for his sins in hell can never do so sufficiently, hence eternal punishment.

Does God accept both payments or not?

 

[Iconoclast]

Does God accept both payments or not?

aresman answered your question....the perfect payment Jesus made fulfilling the terms of the Covenant of Redemption,,,is accepted....

man...unable to pay satisfactorally....pays an eternal price of seperation...neverending....he remains in the realm of sin and death,in a cycle that does not stop.

 

[webdog]

aresman answered your question....the perfect payment Jesus made fulfilling the terms of the Covenant of Redemption,,,is accepted....

man...unable to pay satisfactorally....pays an eternal price of seperation...neverending....he remains in the realm of sin and death,in a cycle that does not stop.

So man has dictated to God what payment He is to receive as He hasn't accepted their payment? Are they paying for their sin in hell or not?

 

[convicted1]

Well, in Hebrew 2:9, it states that Jesus tasted death for every man. In John 12:32, Jesus stated that,"If I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me." Seems like Jesus paid the sin debt in full for all, and those who will accept salvation according to the terms of the gospel(repent and believe), will be saved. However, many will reject the invitation and die in unbelief, and suffer for all eternity because of it.

 

[jbh28]

Christ's payment on the cross is of infinite value sufficient to atone for the sins of everyone. Not everyone will believe. Those that don't believe will for an infinite amount of time suffer in hell for their sins. They have not received the benefits of the atonement and must suffer for his sins. If Christ's atonement was sufficient for all and efficient for all, then none would be in hell because the sin of unbelief would have also been paid for. We all will be judged in the end. The believers("sheep") will go to heaven because he will be righteous because of the imputed righteousness of Christ. Those that don't believe("goats") will be judged "according to their works" and will have to suffer the penalty of their sin.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Desiring...like many of us, to take a random and unnecessarry pot-shot at my Calvinist brethren's Theology...I looked at this thread but honestly....I don't see what the problem is supposed to be...Maybe you can explain in more detail webdog? I may be missing something, but infinite perfection was crucified on the cross....the unrepentant will spend an eternity infinite time (so to speak) in punishment for their un-belief.
If....Calvinists see the whole thing as though there were some kind of "sum total" of payment for an amalgam of various crimes with a varying, yet ultimate "payment in full" balance due....then I reject that view of the atonement: but as I see it....
1.) Infinite perfection/holiness offended with sin
2.) Infinite perfection/holiness punished at the cross
3.) Infinite loss in Hell for non-believers
4.) Infinite joy/blessedness for the redeemed....

Infinity + 1 = absurdity

Along the same vein however.... if our determinist friends would suggest that sins are paid for "twice"....from a non-Cal view...see above:
Infinity either plus or minus 1 is absurd

 

[quantumfaith]

Christ's payment on the cross is of infinite value sufficient to atone for the sins of everyone. Not everyone will believe. Those that don't believe will for an infinite amount of time suffer in hell for their sins. They have not received the benefits of the atonement and must suffer for his sins. If Christ's atonement was sufficient for all and efficient for all, then none would be in hell because the sin of unbelief would have also been paid for. We all will be judged in the end. The believers("sheep") will go to heaven because he will be righteous because of the imputed righteousness of Christ. Those that don't believe("goats") will be judged "according to their works" and will have to suffer the penalty of their sin.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Havensdad]

Christ's payment on the cross is of infinite value sufficient to atone for the sins of everyone. Not everyone will believe. Those that don't believe will for an infinite amount of time suffer in hell for their sins. They have not received the benefits of the atonement and must suffer for his sins. If Christ's atonement was sufficient for all and efficient for all, then none would be in hell because the sin of unbelief would have also been paid for. We all will be judged in the end. The believers("sheep") will go to heaven because he will be righteous because of the imputed righteousness of Christ. Those that don't believe("goats") will be judged "according to their works" and will have to suffer the penalty of their sin.

You are exactly right in saying that Jesus' payment was sufficient for all. But Christ was not a substitute for all... only for the sheep.

To believe in a universal atonement, is to deny the Biblical doctrine of spiritual union with Christ. Romans 6:6 says that our 'old man' was crucified WITH Jesus, when He was on the cross. Not EVERYONE's "old man"...just believers. Just sheep. Galatians 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ..."

 

[Havensdad]

Now do you care to discuss the topic of the thread instead of inserting the typical pejorative laden red herrings?

I thought the topic of the thread was "Which view exalts man"? Is that not what it said/says?

Struck a nerve, did I?

Of course. Any time someone impugns the righteous nature of my Lord, and tries to leave Him at the bidding of sinful man, I get (rightfully) irritated.

 

[Iconoclast]

So man has dictated to God what payment He is to receive as He hasn't accepted their payment? Are they paying for their sin in hell or not?

Man dictates nothing to God.He is cast into Hell.It is not for man to "accept"anything.Man is cast into second death no matter what he thinks, or feels!

Are they paying for their sin in hell or not?

Hell is the place where men receive the wages of sin,,it is more that their evil works that they sowed in the flesh...bear the fruit of the flesh....corruption.
Man gets paid the reward of unrighteousness
Those in heaven who sowed to the Spirit have a reward,having laid up treasure in heaven as Jesus taught.

The idea you seem to be suggesting of man somehow paying,or earning enough merit to escape torment does not seem to be found in scripture,
It is not in LK.16...the rich man had no such hope.
In eph2 unsaved man is described as without God,having no hope.

 

[Iconoclast]

Well, in Hebrew 2:9, it states that Jesus tasted death for every man. In John 12:32, Jesus stated that,"If I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me." Seems like Jesus paid the sin debt in full for all, and those who will accept salvation according to the terms of the gospel(repent and believe), will be saved. However, many will reject the invitation and die in unbelief, and suffer for all eternity because of it.

No Willis.....it does not say everyman...it says every...or everyone....so the context explains who the everyone are....the brethren, the sanctified,the church, the seed of Abraham.....in other words.....the elect sheep:thumbs:

"For every man." This rendering is quite misleading. "Anthropos," the Greek word for "man" is not in the verse at all. Thus, one of the principal texts relied upon by Arminians in their unscriptural contention for a general atonement vanishes into thin air. The Revised Version places the word "man" in italics to show that it is not found in the original. The Greek is "panta" and signifies "every one," that is, every one of those who form the subjects of the whole passage—every one of "the heirs of salvation" (Heb. 1:14), every one of the "sons" (Heb. 2:10), every one of the "brethren" (Heb. 2:11). We may say that this is the view of the passage taken by Drs. Gouge and J. Brown, by Saphir, and a host of others who might be mentioned. Theologically it is demanded by the "tasted death for every one," i.e., substitutionally, in the room of, that they might not. Hence, every one for whom He tasted death shall themselves never do so (see John 8:52), and this is true only of the people of God.

What we have just said above is confirmed by many Scriptures. "For the transgression of My people was He stricken" said God (Isa. 53:8), and all mankind are not His "people." "I lay down My life for the sheep," said the Son (John 10:10), but every man is not of Christ’s sheep (John 10:26). Christ makes intercession on behalf of those for whom He died (Rom. 8:34), but He prays not for the world (see John 17:9). Those for whom he died are redeemed (Rev. 5:9), and from redemption necessarily follows the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:14), but all have not their sins forgiven.

"For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings" (verse 10). This gives the third part of the apostle’s reply to the objection which he is here rebutting, and a most arresting statement it is: he now takes still higher ground, advancing that which should indeed bow our hearts in worship. The word "became" means suited to, in accord with, the character of God. It was consonant with the Divine attributes that the Son should, for a season be "made lower than the angels" in order to "taste death" for His people. It was not only according to God’s eternal purpose, but it was also suited to all His wondrous perfections. Never was God more Godlike than when, in the person of Jesus, He was crucified for our sins.

"For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." There are five things in this verse claiming our reverent and diligent attention. First, the particular character in which God is here viewed; as the One "for whom are all things and by whom are all things." Second, the manner in which it "became" the Most High to bring many sons unto glory by giving up His beloved Son to the awful death of the cross. Third, the particular character in which the Son Himself is here viewed: as "The Captain of our salvation." Fourth, in what sense He was, or could be, "made perfect through sufferings." Fifth, the result of this Divine appointment: the actual conducting of many sons "unto glory."

 

[webdog]

Christ's payment on the cross is of infinite value sufficient to atone for the sins of everyone. Not everyone will believe. Those that don't believe will for an infinite amount of time suffer in hell for their sins. They have not received the benefits of the atonement and must suffer for his sins. If Christ's atonement was sufficient for all and efficient for all, then none would be in hell because the sin of unbelief would have also been paid for. We all will be judged in the end. The believers("sheep") will go to heaven because he will be righteous because of the imputed righteousness of Christ. Those that don't believe("goats") will be judged "according to their works" and will have to suffer the penalty of their sin.

The above bolded is just the reason for this thread. It is false. Man is NOT infinite, hence cannot pay for an infinite amount of time. Infinite means no beginning and no end. Man does not, and can not meet this. Only Christ could, hence man is NOT paying for their sins and cannot.

 

[webdog]

Desiring...like many of us, to take a random and unnecessarry pot-shot at my Calvinist brethren's Theology...I looked at this thread but honestly....I don't see what the problem is supposed to be...Maybe you can explain in more detail webdog? I may be missing something, but infinite perfection was crucified on the cross....the unrepentant will spend an eternity infinite time (so to speak) in punishment for their un-belief.
If....Calvinists see the whole thing as though there were some kind of "sum total" of payment for an amalgam of various crimes with a varying, yet ultimate "payment in full" balance due....then I reject that view of the atonement: but as I see it....
1.) Infinite perfection/holiness offended with sin
2.) Infinite perfection/holiness punished at the cross
3.) Infinite loss in Hell for non-believers
4.) Infinite joy/blessedness for the redeemed....

Infinity + 1 = absurdity

Along the same vein however.... if our determinist friends would suggest that sins are paid for "twice"....from a non-Cal view...see above:
Infinity either plus or minus 1 is absurd

The problem is the bolded. Eternity is not the same thing as infinite.

 

[webdog]

I thought the topic of the thread was "Which view exalts man"? Is that not what it said/says?

Well, you have shown you know how to read a title...now try reading the content.

Of course. Any time someone impugns the righteous nature of my Lord, and tries to leave Him at the bidding of sinful man, I get (rightfully) irritated.

*yawn*

 

[mandym]

It seems to me that people who spend a lot of time debating learn to depend on their ability to make an argument more than they do scripture.

 

[webdog]

Man dictates nothing to God.He is cast into Hell.It is not for man to "accept"anything.Man is cast into second death no matter what he thinks, or feels!



Hell is the place where men receive the wages of sin,,it is more that their evil works that they sowed in the flesh...bear the fruit of the flesh....corruption.
Man gets paid the reward of unrighteousness
Those in heaven who sowed to the Spirit have a reward,having laid up treasure in heaven as Jesus taught.

The idea you seem to be suggesting of man somehow paying,or earning enough merit to escape torment does not seem to be found in scripture,
It is not in LK.16...the rich man had no such hope.
In eph2 unsaved man is described as without God,having no hope.

You have now switched around from man paying for their sins to man receiving payment for their sins, which are not one in the same.