"... white Christianity is doomed..."

[Quantrill]

The Thunderstorm that Changed Martin Luther's Life
"Martin Luther was studying law at a university. And he was terribly frightened by a bolt of lightning that came near him. He cried out, "St. Anne, help me! I will become a monk!" St. Anne was the patroness of miners..."

If you consider this account to be Luther's salvation experience, so be it. I do not.

As far as I have been able to find out, he never had an encounter with the Holy Spirit resulting in him becoming a child of God.

Therefore, I conclude he was a lost sinner, enemy of God, used by Satan to confuse mankind concerning the gospel.

Concerning the reformation he started, what is the consistent doctrine of salvation throughout the denominations that identify as "reformed"?

If there is no consistency, then confusion must prevail.

I grew up in as a Lutheran, was an alter-boy, etc., and never heard that I needed to be born again.

[2Pe 2:1 KJV] 1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

[1Co 14:33 KJV] 33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

First of all, the reformation was the result of God. Not Luther. And it was already occurring with many others before Luther. It was Luther that brought it to the forefront.

Reformed doctrine and the Reformation are two different things. The Reformers were coming out of the darkness of Romanist doctrine. And many still held to some Roman false doctrines. Luther himself was not trying to break away from the Roman Church. But he questioned the authority of the Roman Church.

In other words, the Reformers didn't know everything about the Bible. So their doctrine would change as they grew and studied the Scriptures.

But, there is nothing to support your claim that Luther was a false prophet. Nothing. As I said already, his opinion of the Jews didn't affect his salvation. And just because you never heard the gospel in your Lutheran church doesn't mean anything. It just shows how far the Lutheran church has fallen away.

Have you ever read Luther's commentaries on (Romans) or (Galatians)? Perhaps you should.

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[Wesley Briggman]

The Reformers were coming out of the darkness of Romanist doctrine. And many still held to some Roman false doctrines.

And still do.

In other words, the Reformers didn't know everything about the Bible. So their doctrine would change as they grew and studied the Scriptures.

And still don't.

But, there is nothing to support your claim that Luther was a false prophet.

Obedience to a saint of the RCC never produced a prophet of God.

As I said already, his opinion of the Jews didn't affect his salvation.

I agree. He never experienced salvation, therefore his opinion of the Jews did not have any affect.

His treatise of the Jews, "OF JEWS AND THEIR LIES", was not a product of a born-again believer who has the Mind of Christ.

[1Co 2:16 KJV] 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Quantrill]

And still do.



And still don't.



Obedience to a saint of the RCC never produced a prophet of God.



I agree. He never experienced salvation, therefore his opinion of the Jews did not have any affect.

His treatise of the Jews, "OF JEWS AND THEIR LIES", was not a product of a born-again believer who has the Mind of Christ.

[1Co 2:16 KJV] 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Have you ever read Luther's commentaries on (Romans) and (Galatians)?

Quantrill

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Have you ever read Luther's commentaries on (Romans) and (Galatians)?

Quantrill

No. And do not intend to.

I cannot foresee any commentary he could compose that would change my view of his spiritually lost state.

 

[Quantrill]

No. And do not intend to.

I cannot foresee any commentary he could compose that would change my view of his spiritually lost state.

Probably best.

It shows you are not looking for the truth about Luther. You want to condemn him. You have found something you can hang your hat on to condemn him with. Why read something that shows you that you are wrong?

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[Wesley Briggman]

Probably best.

It shows you are not looking for the truth about Luther. You want to condemn him. You have found something you can hang your hat on to condemn him with. Why read something that shows you that you are wrong?

Quantrill

I cannot condemn or redeem anyone. I do not have any desire to condemn Luther. That is God's perview.

Does he give his testimony of being born-again in one or both of his commentaries? If so, I will accept his word and admit my error.

However, I will never agree with his consubstantiation doctrine, among others.

Luther himself was not trying to break away from the Roman Church.

As far as I know he never did breakaway from the RCC, it kicked him out. Afterward, he took issue with other of their doctrines.

And just because you never heard the gospel in your Lutheran church doesn't mean anything. It just shows how far the Lutheran church has fallen away.

Fallen away from Biblical teaching? A church cannot fall away from a doctrine it never embraced.

Pleas provide me any documentation from a certifiable Lutheran source that the Lutheran church taught a person must be born-again to become a child of God.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Reformed doctrine and the Reformation are two different things.

Could reformed doctrine have developed without the Reformation? Sounds like you think it could have. I think they are intertwined and inseparable.

 

[Quantrill]

I cannot condemn or redeem anyone. I do not have any desire to condemn Luther. That is God's perview.

Does he give his testimony of being born-again in one or both of his commentaries? If so, I will accept his word and admit my error.

However, I will never agree with his consubstantiation doctrine, among others.



As far as I know he never did breakaway from the RCC, it kicked him out. Afterward, he took issue with other of their doctrines.



Fallen away from Biblical teaching? A church cannot fall away from a doctrine it never embraced.

Pleas provide me any documentation from a certifiable Lutheran source that the Lutheran church taught a person must be born-again to become a child of God.

You said Luther never experienced salvation. If that is not condemning...what is?

Why don't you just read Luther's commentaries on (Romans) and (Galatians). You don't need to trust what I say that he said.

I am not arguing in defense of the Lutheran Church. I am arguing with you over the person of Martin Luther.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Could reformed doctrine have developed without the Reformation? Sounds like you think it could have. I think they are intertwined and inseparable.

Not all Reformers had the same doctrine. Of course the Reformation was necessary for Protestantism to exist and develop it's doctrines.

Point being: The reformers didn't have all knowledge of the Bible. They had enough at that time to know they had enough of the Roman Church. That doesn't mean there wasn't more to learn. But many in the 'Reformed Faith' act as if what the Reformers knew was the total of Bible knowledge. And that just isn't so.

Quantrill

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Not all Reformers had the same doctrine.

Apparently still don't.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

WORLD WAR II · TIME-LIFE BOOKS · ALEXANDRIA, VIRGINIA

When Hitler began preaching anti-Semitism, he might have
taken his text from the 16th Century German theologian
Martin Luther, who in railing against many groups that op-
posed his new church declared that the Jews were "like
a plague, pestilence, pure misfortune." Luther charged:

"They let us work in the sweat of our noses, to earn money
and property for them, while they sit behind the oven, la-
zy, let off gas, bake pears, eat, drink, live softly and well
from our wealth."

Actually, Martin Luther's anti-Semitism-and German
anti-Semitism for generations after him-differed little in
kind from anti-Semitism anywhere else in Europe. But the
ancient prejudice seemed to grow stronger in Germany in
the early 19th Century with the rise of nationalism; in fact,
in Germany the two often intermeshed.



Page 135


BY ROBERT EDWIN HERZSTEIN

AND THE EDITORS OF TIME-LIFE BOOKS

 

[Quantrill]

WORLD WAR II · TIME-LIFE BOOKS · ALEXANDRIA, VIRGINIA

When Hitler began preaching anti-Semitism, he might have
taken his text from the 16th Century German theologian
Martin Luther, who in railing against many groups that op-
posed his new church declared that the Jews were "like
a plague, pestilence, pure misfortune." Luther charged:

"They let us work in the sweat of our noses, to earn money
and property for them, while they sit behind the oven, la-
zy, let off gas, bake pears, eat, drink, live softly and well
from our wealth."

Actually, Martin Luther's anti-Semitism-and German
anti-Semitism for generations after him-differed little in
kind from anti-Semitism anywhere else in Europe. But the
ancient prejudice seemed to grow stronger in Germany in
the early 19th Century with the rise of nationalism; in fact,
in Germany the two often intermeshed.



Page 135


BY ROBERT EDWIN HERZSTEIN

AND THE EDITORS OF TIME-LIFE BOOKS

You love the articles against Luther, yet refuse to read Luther's commentaries on (Romans) and (Galatians). Typical.

Quantrill

 

[Wesley Briggman]

It shows you are not looking for the truth about Luther. You want to condemn him. You have found something you can hang your hat on to condemn him with. Why read something that shows you that you are wrong?

If you consider Luther to be a brother in Christ, consider the following command:


1Ti 6:3 KJV - If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Ti 6:4 KJV - He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Ti 6:5 KJV - Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

 

[Quantrill]

If you consider Luther to be a brother in Christ, consider the following command:


1Ti 6:3 KJV - If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Ti 6:4 KJV - He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Ti 6:5 KJV - Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Ok. I considered it and still consider Luther a brother in Christ.

Quantrill

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Ok. I considered it and still consider Luther a brother in Christ.

So be it.

 

[Scott Downey]

So be it.

Reassuring Weller of his saving faith, Luther wrote, “When the devil throws our sins up to us and declares we deserve death and hell, we ought to speak thus: ‘I admit I deserve death and hell. What of it? Does this mean I shall be sentenced to eternal damnation? By no means. For I know One who suffered and made satisfaction in my behalf. His name is Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Where he is, there I shall be also.’”

https://voice.dts.edu/article/lutherandcalvinonsalvation/