If you are tagged out at second rather than third, the base is different but the result, the stumbling block is still an out.
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Who are our modern Nicolaitians?
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
Being enticed into faithless behavior can be accomplished using various false teachings, but at their core, they all pervert God's word.
Sir, I provided specifics, the Nicolaitians appear to entice believers to engage in spiritual adultery. And that could be doing stuff we are not supposed to do, and not doing stuff we are supposed do. No different from Balaam, as specifically stated in post #6.
Sounds like a spot on description of the early RCC. Especially with the "Nico" in the "laitians."
37818
Well-Known Member
Really?
When a Jew is forced out of his country it is a sign that he is cut off from his covenants with God. There are several reasons for this that I will not go into now but I will say that the government of God was and is a theocracy. The citizenship of the kingdom agreed to this form of government in Exodus 20. All those in this nation were of one family or they agreed to adopt and live under the customs and culture of the Divine King and be governed by his law. The only reason this would ever change is if they rejected and rebelled against their king and ignored his law. The king would then be justified by taking his protection away and allow another nation to overcome them, at which time they would be under the laws of that person or people. If this Divine King was a gracious King he might consider this as a disciplinary measure to allow such a thing and devise a plan to rescue them from the penalty of his broken law and from the oppression of other nations, an action which God did. He would simply enter into their realm as one of them and keep his law perfectly and forgive every one who would accept the reconciliation between them and the righteousness of the law by enduring the consequence of breaking it, death. Then, because he had no personal accountability of breaking the law, God raised his physical and human son from the dead, imputing his righteousness to all his guilty citizens who would simply understand it and receive it by faith. When they did this they became an eternal citizen of this kingdom, even if they had to be raised from the dead.
God then prepared a special man, Paul, ordained him an apostle to the gentiles and sent him to these gentiles/Israelites on his first missionary journey and declaring to them the good news that God, after 700 years would take them back as his people and under a law that has been perfectly kept by his son, Jesus Christ. He would justify them and receive them as his sons if they would come to him in his name, imputing his righteousness to them.
This is exactly what happened to the northern nation of Israel when driven oiut of their land in 722 BC. Everybody in that part of the world knew who these strangers in Asia minor were. There were synagogues in every city. Many of these strangers attended the annual feasts and corresponding festivals of Israel in Jerusalem. The people of Asia, the province, not the continent, maintained a synagogue in Jerusalem. The Jews from Jerusalem and the Pharisees worried that Paul and Barnabas were going to persuade them away from the law by preaching the Mosaic Law had ended as the principle of divine dealing of Jehovah and turn them from the outward observance of it as the manner to be saved. They followed behind Paul with their corrupting doctrines.
Paul, was the preacher to the gentiles and he came preaching Jesus and salvation through faith in him alone because God considered them gentiles at this time. Yet these people remain under the Abrahamic Covenant and all them who believe will enter the kingdom of God and it will be as Peter said for them. They will be a holy priesthood when the kingdom is finally realized on the earth. This is the message we read about in the letters of Peter and the other apostles. James addressed his letters to the 12 tribes scattered abroad. His was the first of the New Testament letters and he said not a single word about the church because revealing church doctrine was not his calling. If the 12 apostles and 70 elders will occupy the office of kings and rulers under Christ in the kingdom, then these can be resurrected to occupy the priesthood.
No one in our present time seems to know who these people are and don't seem to care. They are the gentiles in Romans 9 to whom God is showing mercy to through Jesus Christ and Paul even quotes Hosea concerning them. These are the sheep that are scattered on a thousand hills that Jesus Christ came to seek and to save. They are the ones who, unlike the Judean Jews, sought him by faith while the Judean Jews sought righteousness by means of keeping the law.
It does not take a Ph.D. or a noted philosopher to learn these things. It takes a saved person who will believe the words and seek out their context.
We would certainly need to consider some sort of Jewish philosophy to the people in Ephesus when we consider the Nicolaitans since it is one of the first churches established. These people had deeds and doctrines. The fourth church mentioned, Thyatira was more likely a type of the Catholic Church we know now with it's leaven. It, the Catholic Church, did not come along until the fourth century. This one had a woman teaching in it.
I can wrong about some things but I am not wrong about God keeping every covenant promise to his elect nation, Israel, that he made to them in The Abrahamic, Palestinian, the David, and the New Covenants. We gentiles are greatly blessed by the wonderful grace of God by making us a partaker of her spiritual blessings. Praise God for that.
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Mic 4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.
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Why are you asking endless questions to no discernible purpose? The topic addresses those in modern day Christianity who engage in practices similar in affect to those of the Nicolaitians.
I think those who hinder bible study fall into that group.
You addressed many topics, let me try to address just one.
The "elect nation, Israel" were not just blood line Jews, but refers to "all Israel" (Romans 9:6 and 11:26) which includes New Covenant Gentiles., as you indicated. But we are a holy priesthood now, are sacrifices in the service of Christ are acceptable now.
Folks, this poster simply continues to ask endless questions, but never acknowledges that the answers have been previously given. No recall of post #1 and Easy Believism!
37818
Well-Known Member
John 3:16, versus lordship salvation, Matthew 7:21-23, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Easy believeism, Matthew 11:30, For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Good grief, why did not post you were an Easy Believism advocate. Apparently you are one of those who "secretly introduce" destructive heresies.
Yes, I believe those that advocate Easy Believism are modern day Nicolaitians.
You posted about 12 disruptive and diversionary posts, that did not say "I[37818] do not believe Easy Believism is a stumbling block to faithful service to Christ!"
John 3:16 does NOT say everyone who puts their trust and devotion in what they believe about Christ, will never perish! That is an unstudied fiction!
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Any teaching that imposes a "system of hierarchy" upon a gathering of God's people, such as a Clergy / Laity distinction, I believe to be the "doctrine of the Nicolaitains".
That includes a rank structure that has "average Christians" placed under ( and subordinate to ) first, "the Pastor".
After that, "the associate pastor(s)".
Next, the "Lay Pastor" ( if there is one )
Then, the deacon(s).
Lastly, ( and if your local assembly has this ) the church "Trustee(s)".
Any and all of these titles and positions are not authoritative in the sense that believers "take orders" from such;
Rather, any and all of these offices exist to serve ( with humility ) the brethren... not to lord it over them.
I remember some years ago, when the men of the congregation ( in the Independent Baptist church I was attending at the time ), were told ( not asked ) by the pastor to come forward and pray for something church-related at the front, and it striking a strange chord in me that basically said, " What's going on here, am I back in the Navy or something?"
I thought it odd that such things would take place in God's house, when Scripture teaches otherwise.
In other words, in letter and in spirit, we as believers are not to act this way towards each other because the Lord has specifically stated in Matthew 20:24-28 that those that would be great among us would instead serve the body in humility of mind ....and they do so because the Holy Spirit has put them there ( Acts 20:28 ).
As believers, we have one King... Jesus Christ.
Aside from that,
There are no Generals, no Colonels, no Lieutenants, no Sergeants, no Corporals and no Privates.
We are all equals in the body of Christ and we all stand on nothing except His grace and mercy towards us.
That includes a rank structure that has "average Christians" placed under ( and subordinate to ) first, "the Pastor".
After that, "the associate pastor(s)".
Next, the "Lay Pastor" ( if there is one )
Then, the deacon(s).
Lastly, ( and if your local assembly has this ) the church "Trustee(s)".
Any and all of these titles and positions are not authoritative in the sense that believers "take orders" from such;
Rather, any and all of these offices exist to serve ( with humility ) the brethren... not to lord it over them.
I remember some years ago, when the men of the congregation ( in the Independent Baptist church I was attending at the time ), were told ( not asked ) by the pastor to come forward and pray for something church-related at the front, and it striking a strange chord in me that basically said, " What's going on here, am I back in the Navy or something?"
I thought it odd that such things would take place in God's house, when Scripture teaches otherwise.
In other words, in letter and in spirit, we as believers are not to act this way towards each other because the Lord has specifically stated in Matthew 20:24-28 that those that would be great among us would instead serve the body in humility of mind ....and they do so because the Holy Spirit has put them there ( Acts 20:28 ).
As believers, we have one King... Jesus Christ.
Aside from that,
There are no Generals, no Colonels, no Lieutenants, no Sergeants, no Corporals and no Privates.
We are all equals in the body of Christ and we all stand on nothing except His grace and mercy towards us.
Thanks, Van. The reason I posted as I did on the subject of the Nicolaitans is because I am a context man. I know that Paul the apostle and Barnabas did not begin their first missionary journey from Antioch Syria that took them through the region of Asia Minor before 42 AD. I know that they had won many converts in the region of Galatia because Paul wrote his epistle to the Galatian churches in AD 49, his first of thirteen epistles. In this letter he rebuked them for giving audience to the Judaizers who included keeping the law of Moses for salvation.. So we know that Paul began his second missionary efforts over mostly the same area and when he came to the Roman province of Asia, in which is the city of Ephesus, he was forbidden to go into Asia and was directed by the Holy Ghost into Macedonia by a vision.. So he went to Philippi where he founded a church, then to Corinth in Achaia and to Thessalonica. This all before 51 AD because he wrote 1 Thess and 2 Thess in AD 51/52. He reminded them he had been there and preached to them. 2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
He wrote the epistle to the Romans in AD 58, a church he had not visited and had been started by others. This was from Corinth after all that was written had passed between Acts 1 and Acts 18. He was later imprisoned in Rome and and wrote the epistles of Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, and Philemon from there in AD 60. All the NT epistles were written and all the apostles and prophets were dead before the dispersion by the Romans in 70 AD, except the apostle John.
John, the apostle, wrote 5 books of the NT and if my information is correct he wrote them all from 90 AD, the decade in which he too died. His last book, the Revelation of Jesus Christ is a "prophecy." A prophecy takes place from the present tense of the seer and unfolds knowledge of things to happen in the future going forward. He meets Jesus on the isle of Patmos in 94 AD and was commanded to write this prophecy in a three-fold division. It would be past, present, and future. Here is what he said to John;
Re 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
What is in the past? It was the vision of Christ he had just seen when he was told to write. This vision is from Re 1:10 through Re 1:20
The things that are are the 7 churches. They occupy the present tense. Two chapters are devoted to them.
After that he is to write the things that will be hereafter. In my educational background that would be the things that will be here after the churches. You can check the verb tenses in the KJV to see if this is what happened. The remainder of the Revelation is the remainder of the prophecy from chapter 4 verse 1 to the end that has not yet come to pass. Re 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
The reason for this much explanation is to make the case that Paul and the Jewish Christian writers said nothing about the Nicolaitans and the problems they presented in their letters and may be the cause of it. This tells me that this sect arose after the dispersion and was probably the indicator that the Ephesians had left their first love. It affected the Pergamos church. Paul was killed by the Romans in probably 67 AD. The last epistle before the dispersion was Jude in 69 AD.
If I have any dates wrong it is not on purpose.
I am not sure why but the Revelation is given in the context of these seven churches in Asia, these being mostly descendants of the northern nation of Israel, strangers.
Thanks for the "on topic" post. And I agree, I attend a church that belongs to Jesus, and is not our beloved Pastor's church. But we are to form assemblies with elected by the members "leaders." such as Pastors, Teachers, counselors and administrators. One test that I used was apparent humility, folks who did not see themselves as special, who were willing to listen and work toward a consensus. But I was in a Baptist church.
37818
Well-Known Member
Well your belief I believe is wrong.
Jesus taught an equal botherhood of believers. And an equal priesthood of believers. And one should not take God like titles, like [Holy] "Father."
Matthew 23:8-9.
Scofield 1917 note,
'Nicolaitanes
From nikao, "to conquer," and laos, "the people," or "laity." There is no ancient authority for a sect of the Nicolaitanes. If the word is symbolic it refers to the earliest form of the notion of a priestly order, or "clergy," which later divided an equal brotherhood Matthew 23:8 into "priests" and "laity." What in Ephesus was "deeds" Revelation 2:6 had become in Pergamos a "doctrine Revelation 2:15.'
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Well we can agree, "to conquer the people" is the suggested meaning based on root word meanings. However, to conquer the people through subversion, after the likeness of Balaam's behavior, is the meaning the OP addresses. The subversion was aimed at causing the people to behave less faithfully, such as eating what they thought was ok, when it was not.
Easy Believism subverts the gospel by teaching it is ok not to strive to follow Christ even in the face of adversity.Thus it represents modern day Nicolaitians.
And it omits the truth taught by God's word that God must credit our faith as righteousness. And as taught in Matthew 7, if the faith lacks commitment to follow Christ, but rather practice lawlessness, that faith will not be credited leading to salvation.