Who are the 'elders' and 'four beasts' of Revelation 5:8?

[Alofa Atu]

The fact that they’re interceding on our behalf and carrying incense shows that they are priests – as this is a priestly duty, per Exod. 30:1, Num. 7 and Num. 16.

The angelic beings are indeed ministering with God, as it is written:

Psa_104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

Heb_1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.​

Yet, as I have said from the OP, they already existed before this earth was created. All of Heaven ministers to God. It is the way of Heaven. Selflessness.

As for your SDA “Soul Sleep” perversion – this is based on Ellen White’s total lack of understanding of Scripture.

Not at all. She used to believe as you do, being at one time a Methodist. It was not until she heard the scriptures concerning the matter, that she studied the matter out. See the video and citation above. As, also stated, most of the ECF were conditionalist also.

In verses where death is referred to as “sleep” (Dan 12:2, 1 Cor 15:51) – this is what is known as phenomenological language – or, the language of appearances. In other words – they only “appear” to be sleeping to the human eye.

Yes, I can understand the use of language, as Jesus was clear with Lazarus. Yet, the "death" referred to is simply the first and not the "second": death. All persons, that are in the first death, still "live unto" God:

Luk_20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.​

This does not mean that they (dead - asleep) are conscious somewhere. It means God can still resurrect them. They are not beyond His power to bring to life.

Notice the text is in context of the resurrection (not before):

Luk 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Luk 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
​

This is why Jesus was able to say BOTH “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep” (John 11:11) AND “Lazarus is DEAD” (John 11:14).

Yes, agreed.

The soul itself never loses consciousness.

Oh, you just stepped over the line and make the leap of illogic, to prove your apriori. The text you cited did not say that Lazarus was conscious. The "soul" is dead (alseep), Ezekiel 18:4,20. The "soul" is the whole person/being (Genesis 2:7; Job 33:30; Psalms 42:2, 56:3; 1 Corinthians 15:45; Revelation 16:3; etc).

In Rev.20:4, we again see disembodied souls of martyrs

You just added to scripture. Scripture, in Revelation 20:4, doesn't say "disembodied". It says:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.​

The "souls of them", can also be said, the "persons of them". This is also a future event, not yet taken place. It is to take place during the 1000 years to come (though I know as a staunch Romanist, you are either Amillennial, or mystical, or both).

You redefine the word "soul" which is not found in scripture, to mean something which is taught by neo platonism, which is where Romanism got its theology as admitted in print.

in Heaven – those who were martyred during the Tribulation.

See response previous.

So – you have an AWFUL LOT of souls in Heaven making a LOT of noise – for a place that’s supposed to be quiet and empty . . .

I never said Heaven was empty in any place on this board - ever. I have always said that Heaven was filled with creatures (unfallen beings, like the sons of God and angels, animals, etc).

What Heaven does not host, is the 'deceased' (those who sleep in the dust of the earth). Every Ash Wednesday, you say it, but do not recognize what is said. Ashes, dust and to that which "you" return, for it is from that which we are all made.

 

[MarysSon]

What about the texts I cited in the OP? Will you consider those texts with me? Afterall, those are scripture.

Did you know that Jesus cited the scripture which calls those of mankind "gods" (John 10:35; citing Psalms 82:1,6), and this was from the beginning (Genesis 3:5), etc. Do you know what it means? I do. Be glad to show you if interested.

Even Rome says (though it isn't what scripture says/defines):

"... "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81 ... (81 - St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc. 57, 1-4.) ..." - Catechism of the Catholic Church - "He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, and born of the Virgin Mary"​

Who are the 'gods' among the Romanists?

"... Innocent III. has written: " Indeed, it is not too much to say that in view of the sublimity of their offices the priests are so many gods." 8 ... (8. "Sacerdotes, propter officii dignitatem, Deorum nomine nuncupantur." Can. Cum ex injuncto. De Haret.) ..." - Dignities And Duties Of The Priest; Alphonsus De Liguori (PDF); page 12 - https://ia801408.us.archive.org/17/items/roman-catholicism-alphonsus-de-liguori-dignities-and-duties-of-the-priest/Roman Catholicism - Alphonsus De Liguori - Dignities And Duties Of The Priest.pdf
​

I do not think you have read the history of how sister White first understood the state of the dead (remember she used to be Methodist, which taught the unscriptural theology of immortal soul/spirit theology):

"... One day I listened to a conversation between my mother and a sister, in reference to a discourse which they had recently heard, to the effect that the soul had not natural immortality. Some of the minister's proof texts were repeated. Among them I remember these impressed me very forcibly: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." "The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything." "Which in His times He shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of Lords; who only hath immortality." "To them who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life." "Why," said my mother, after quoting the foregoing passage, "should they seek for what they already have?" {1T 39.1}

I listened to these new ideas with an intense and painful interest. When alone with my mother, I inquired if she really believed that the soul was not immortal. Her reply was that she feared we had been in error on that subject as well as upon some others. {1T 39.2}

"But, mother," said I, "do you really believe that the soul sleeps in the grave until the resurrection? Do you think that the Christian, when he dies, does not go immediately to heaven, nor the sinner to hell?" {1T 39.3}

She answered: "The Bible gives us no proof that there is an eternally burning hell. If there is such a place, it should be mentioned in the Sacred Book." {1T 39.4}

ith glorious immortal life. {1T 40.2} ..." - Testimonies For The Church, Volume 1, pages 39,1 - 40.2​

So, she heard her mother and another sister speaking, then a sermon and studied the matter out from the scriptures. She made up nothing.

You might consider this study of the scriptures, and we can go over any concerns or questions or texts.

Different subject. Non sequitur.

Yes, in that order. The word "angel" simply means those sent with a message for another. God created many "worlds" before ours (Hebrews 1:2, 11:3; Psalms 33:6, etc), and thus as this world, notice:

Isa_45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Job_1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job_2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.​

Even the Jesuits of Rome know, though in a twisted manner. Citations upon request.

Yep, the higher and lower creatures, sure, from the ape and dog and dolphin to the ant and flea and mote the flitters in the sunbeam.

Just like a dishonest anti-Catholic SDA to present a partial quote taken out of context. The words of Aquinas are symbolic in reference to the passages of Scripture they are describing (Mark 8:34, 2 Pet 1:4). There are quotes Irenaeus and Athanasius as well in this portion of the Catechism that are also dripping with symbolism:

460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

77 Cf. Mark 8:34.
78 2 Pet 1:4.
79 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 3, 19, 1: PG 7/1, 939.
80 St. Athanasius, De inc. 54, 3: PG 25, 192B.
81 St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc. 57, 1-4.

As for Alphonsus Liguori, whom you ALSO took out of context – he was writing about the God-given priestly power to forgive or retain sins (John 20:21-23).

In his treatise he also uses symbolic language and even uses the term “as it were”, which means, “in a way” or, “in a manner of speaking”.
Bottom line: He was NOT calling priests “gods”.

"On priests," says St. Gregory, "it is incumbent to give the final decision, for by the right that they have received from the Lord they now remit, now retain sins." 4 St. Clement, then, had reason to say that the priest is, as it were, a God on earth. 5 God, said David, stood in the congregation of the gods? These gods are, according to St. Augustine, the priests of God. 7 Innocent III. has written: " Indeed, it is not too much to say that in view of the sublimity of their offices the priests are so many gods."


As for Ellen White – it only takes ONE false prophecy to make a FALSE prophet.

She prophesied that the world would end in 1843, 1844, 1845 & 1851: "Now time is almost finished, (1851) and what we have been 6 years in learning they will have to learn in months." (Early Writings, p. 57)

Ellen White is a FALSE prophet


Now - try being HONEST for a change – then we can have an educated conversation . . .

 

[MarysSon]

The angelic beings are indeed ministering with God, as it is written:

Psa_104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

Heb_1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.​

Yet, as I have said from the OP, they already existed before this earth was created. All of Heaven ministers to God. It is the way of Heaven. Selflessness.

Not at all. She used to believe as you do, being at one time a Methodist. It was not until she heard the scriptures concerning the matter, that she studied the matter out. See the video and citation above. As, also stated, most of the ECF were conditionalist also.

Yes, I can understand the use of language, as Jesus was clear with Lazarus. Yet, the "death" referred to is simply the first and not the "second": death. All persons, that are in the first death, still "live unto" God:

Luk_20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.​

This does not mean that they (dead - asleep) are conscious somewhere. It means God can still resurrect them. They are not beyond His power to bring to life.

Notice the text is in context of the resurrection (not before):

Luk 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Luk 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
​

Yes, agreed.

Oh, you just stepped over the line and make the leap of illogic, to prove your apriori. The text you cited did not say that Lazarus was conscious. The "soul" is dead (alseep), Ezekiel 18:4,20. The "soul" is the whole person/being (Genesis 2:7; Job 33:30; Psalms 42:2, 56:3; 1 Corinthians 15:45; Revelation 16:3; etc).

You just added to scripture. Scripture, in Revelation 20:4, doesn't say "disembodied". It says:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.​

The "souls of them", can also be said, the "persons of them". This is also a future event, not yet taken place. It is to take place during the 1000 years to come (though I know as a staunch Romanist, you are either Amillennial, or mystical, or both).

You redefine the word "soul" which is not found in scripture, to mean something which is taught by neo platonism, which is where Romanism got its theology as admitted in print.

See response previous.

I never said Heaven was empty in any place on this board - ever. I have always said that Heaven was filled with creatures (unfallen beings, like the sons of God and angels, animals, etc).

What Heaven does not host, is the 'deceased' (those who sleep in the dust of the earth). Every Ash Wednesday, you say it, but do not recognize what is said. Ashes, dust and to that which "you" return, for it is from that which we are all made.

First of all - Psalm 104:4 is allegorical language. It is merely saying:
"He makes the winds His messengers, flaming fire His ministers His Angels."
If you don't see symbolism here - you are reading WAY too much into the text. Heb. 1:7 is a reference to the same Psalm.

As for the "Disembodied" souls in Rev. 20:4, it is referring to martyred souls IN HEAVEN - and the resurrection has not yet taken place. They do NOT ave their glorified bodies. ALL of this is PRIOR to the false SDA idea that souls "wake up" at the Resurrection of the Dead after being "asleep" since they died.

 

[timtofly]

I am not sure the topic is, but a few things to address. Jesus did mention Lazarus as a begger, did die, and the rich man who let him beg at his gate also went to hell. Jesus said they did have a conversation. So the soul does not sleep in dust. Only the empty shell of the body returns to dust.

Since you already quoted all the verses. EGW, herself indicated consciousness in hell, and consciousness in heaven. Jesus Himself taught it. In fact, Jesus established Paradise as in heaven, the place where all OT saints went on the third day after the cross. The thief being the last OT saint to die, and the first NT saint to enter Paradise. That day. Paradise was not Abraham's bosom. The reason being Paradise was Eden and was guarded by an angel. No human could enter. The Atonement of Jesus on the Cross, opened Paradise, and the Angel was out of a job. Jesus said, "Today, thou shalt be with me in Paradise." It was a place of living souls, ghost if you please. Jesus appeared to Mary early the 3rd day. Jesus spoke and she knew. Why did she not see and recognize? He was a Ghost with no signs of just being beaten beyond recognition, and dying on a cross. He did not even look like a healthy Jesus, nor could she touch him. There was no physical substance, a ghost only. That is how all those in Christ, exist as souls in Paradise, under the alter, in heaven. Paul said, "in death one is absent from the body, and present with the Lord."

Only at the rapture of living saints, at the opening of the 6th seal, will both the dead in Christ and those alive in Christ, finally get a tangible body, of light, and the full state of a son of God.

The angels are the stars of day 4, and Job 38:7. The son's of God are the image of God created on day 6. Genesis 1 clearly states when both angels and son's of God were created. The first week was 6 days at the beginning of creation. This universe, earth, heaven, and under the earth, is all this reality is. The stars are angels, and there are two literal lights in the sky. God did not lie in Genesis 1. That is all there is in this reality. Yes there are other cubed realities where GOD is transcendent outside of this cube we call reality. No! Other realities do not come into this one, and we are not told if we can enter other realities. At the end of the last 1000 years, the lake of fire and the sons of God, and angels along with the Trinity will be instantly placed into the next reality, instantaneously. John describes it briefly, as the actual reality we live in compared to the next one. Perhaps during the last 1000 years, we will learn more, as we live under restored pre-fall conditions. There was never preparations of works. We were to obey and trust God. Now in the last months of the body of Christ, we need to put away all this world has to offer, and make the path to Atonement straight. Not the doctrines and theology of man, and not even traditions. The Gospel to be preached and lived out only. God stopped work. Why do we not heed God’s signs? It is time for the Lord's prayer to be constant in our minds.

 

[Alofa Atu]

"... He [Jesus] was a Ghost ...

That (what you just shared) is pure spiritualism. It is occult (and teaches platonism, neo platonism, dualism, OOB, etc), and not of God, but of the devil (I speak of theology).

Jesus said:

Luk_24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.​

Scripture foretold:

Isa_26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.​

Matthew 27, etc, (Psalms 68:18; Ephesians 4:8, etc) speaks of the others raised with Jesus in glory:

Joh_17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
​

Jesus was no 'ghost'.

As for the other material I shall address it later. In detail, by God's grace.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Just like a dishonest anti-Catholic SDA to present a partial quote taken out of context. The words of Aquinas are symbolic in reference to the passages of Scripture they are describing (Mark 8:34, 2 Pet 1:4). There are quotes Irenaeus and Athanasius as well in this portion of the Catechism that are also dripping with symbolism:

460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

77 Cf. Mark 8:34.
78 2 Pet 1:4.
79 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 3, 19, 1: PG 7/1, 939.
80 St. Athanasius, De inc. 54, 3: PG 25, 192B.
81 St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc. 57, 1-4.

Would you care to explain, using my original reply that has the citation, How I took anything out of context? Here is the original post - Who are the 'elders' and 'four beasts' of Revelation 5:8?

It is speaking of "sharers in his divinity" (in context of "gods") in the very quotes Vatican.va refers to. That is all I was referring to. I didn't even make any statements on the citation, except the following:

"... Even Rome says (though it isn't what scripture says/defines):..."​

... As for Alphonsus Liguori, whom you ALSO took out of context – he was writing about the God-given priestly power to forgive or retain sins (John 20:21-23).

In his treatise he also uses symbolic language and even uses the term “as it were”, which means, “in a way” or, “in a manner of speaking”.
Bottom line: He was NOT calling priests “gods”.

"On priests," says St. Gregory, "it is incumbent to give the final decision, for by the right that they have received from the Lord they now remit, now retain sins." 4 St. Clement, then, had reason to say that the priest is, as it were, a God on earth. 5 God, said David, stood in the congregation of the gods? These gods are, according to St. Augustine, the priests of God. 7 Innocent III. has written: " Indeed, it is not too much to say that in view of the sublimity of their offices the priests are so many gods."

Again, using the original reply - Who are the 'elders' and 'four beasts' of Revelation 5:8?

Share how I took the citation out of context? The only comment I made on it was:

"... Who are the 'gods' among the Romanists?..."​

This in answer to the first citations "gods".

You mistake Liguori's words. Liguori cites "Clement" as saying "as it were". My quotation was not Clement from Liguori, but rather Innocent III, who said directly, "Indeed, it is not too much to say that in view of the sublimity of their offices the priests are so many gods."

Innocent III never said, "as it were". That was Clement. Innocent III even said, "it is not too much to say ..."

Bottom Line. There was a bait and switch, but it was not from me. There was obfuscation, but again, not from I. There was out of context, but neither from my replies.

There is more to cite from Rome of course.

As for Ellen White – it only takes ONE false prophecy to make a FALSE prophet.

She prophesied that the world would end in 1843, 1844, 1845 & 1851: "Now time is almost finished, (1851) and what we have been 6 years in learning they will have to learn in months." (Early Writings, p. 57)

Ellen White is a FALSE prophet

Already addressed here -

[1] - Do The SDA See Ellen White As Modern Prophetess Then?

[2] - Do The SDA See Ellen White As Modern Prophetess Then?

[3] - Do The SDA See Ellen White As Modern Prophetess Then?​

If you read carefully, you are taking sister White out of context. I demonstrate that in those three posts. Please read carefully. Thank you.

Now - try being HONEST for a change – then we can have an educated conversation . . .

Character assassination. Not worth addressing. Next.

 

[Alofa Atu]

First of all - Psalm 104:4 is allegorical language. It is merely saying:
"He makes the winds His messengers, flaming fire His ministers His Angels."
If you don't see symbolism here - you are reading WAY too much into the text. Heb. 1:7 is a reference to the same Psalm.

You do realize, that the 'transloosion' (portmanteau) that you used is not actually representative of the Hebrew? Your 'version' states that God makes 'winds' his messengers, and 'fire' his angels (messengers), but the KJB (and also Hebrew, and even the NT by Paul) shows that it is referring to living beings, actual angels, not 'winds' and 'fire'. Notice:

KJB -

Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.​

Hebrew OT -

Psa 104:4 עשׂה מלאכיו רוחות משׁרתיו אשׁ להט׃​

so called an LXX -

Psa 103:4 ὁ ποιῶν τοὺς ἀγγέλους αὐτοῦ πνεύματα καὶ τοὺς λειτουργοὺς αὐτοῦ πῦρ φλέγον.​

GNT TR -

Heb 1:7 και προς μεν τους αγγελους λεγει ο ποιων τους αγγελους αυτου πνευματα και τους λειτουργους αυτου πυρος φλογα​

DR (Douay Rheims) -

Psa 104:4 Who makest thy angels spirits: and thy ministers a burning fire.
Heb 1:7 And to the angels indeed he saith: He that maketh his angels spirits and his ministers a flame of fire.​

Latin Vulgate (Jerome) -

Psa 103:4 qui facis angelos tuos spiritus et ministros tuos ignem urentem
Heb 1:7 et ad angelos quidem dicit qui facit angelos suos spiritus et ministros suos flammam ignis​

Your 'transloosion' doesn't even agree with the official Roman Catholic Bibles (Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur).

As for the "Disembodied" souls in Rev. 20:4,

Again you added the word "disembodied". The word is nowhere present in the text, written or implied (as it specifically says, "lived" (which means resurrected, for it implies a state of non-living for a time, until they 'lived' at the time to reign), not dead/deceased or disembodied).

it is referring to martyred souls IN HEAVEN - and the resurrection has not yet taken place.

Depends on the resurrection you refer to. The resurrection in Revelation 20:4 has not taken place, that is for certain. I never said otherwise. I spoke of other resurrections that did take place (Moses (glorified, see Luke 9:31), Firstfruits and Jesus' own).

They do NOT ave their glorified bodies. ALL of this is PRIOR to the false SDA idea that souls "wake up" at the Resurrection of the Dead after being "asleep" since they died.

The persons, such as Enoch (never died), Elijah (never died), Moses, the Firstfruits (Matt 27) and Jesus all have glorified bodies. The last three (Moses, firstfruits and Jesus) have all been resurrected from sleep/death and have entered Heaven after.

Isa_26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Dan_12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.​

 

[timtofly]

That (what you just shared) is pure spiritualism. It is occult (and teaches platonism, neo platonism, dualism, OOB, etc), and not of God, but of the devil (I speak of theology).

Jesus said:

Luk_24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.​

Scripture foretold:

Isa_26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.​

Matthew 27, etc, (Psalms 68:18; Ephesians 4:8, etc) speaks of the others raised with Jesus in glory:

Joh_17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
​

Jesus was no 'ghost'.

As for the other material I shall address it later. In detail, by God's grace.

That was only during that 3 day period. Jesus received His glorified body, after ascending to heaven. He then came back to meet with the disciples in the upper room. He visited with them for 40 days.

He appeared to Mary, and the two walking to another village in that form. From what is indicated, the OT saints came out of the graves as ghosts themselves. They also walked around Jerusalem with Jesus. Jesus told Mary they had not gone to Paradise yet. They had to wait 3.5 days. After that is when Jesus returned to meet with the disciples in the upper room.

 

[MarysSon]

Would you care to explain, using my original reply that has the citation, How I took anything out of context? Here is the original post - Who are the 'elders' and 'four beasts' of Revelation 5:8?

It is speaking of "sharers in his divinity" (in context of "gods") in the very quotes Vatican.va refers to. That is all I was referring to. I didn't even make any statements on the citation, except the following:

"... Even Rome says (though it isn't what scripture says/defines):..."​

Again, using the original reply - Who are the 'elders' and 'four beasts' of Revelation 5:8?

Share how I took the citation out of context? The only comment I made on it was:

"... Who are the 'gods' among the Romanists?..."​

This in answer to the first citations "gods".

You mistake Liguori's words. Liguori cites "Clement" as saying "as it were". My quotation was not Clement from Liguori, but rather Innocent III, who said directly, "Indeed, it is not too much to say that in view of the sublimity of their offices the priests are so many gods."

Innocent III never said, "as it were". That was Clement. Innocent III even said, "it is not too much to say ..."

Bottom Line. There was a bait and switch, but it was not from me. There was obfuscation, but again, not from I. There was out of context, but neither from my replies.

There is more to cite from Rome of course.

Already addressed here -

[1] - Do The SDA See Ellen White As Modern Prophetess Then?

[2] - Do The SDA See Ellen White As Modern Prophetess Then?

[3] - Do The SDA See Ellen White As Modern Prophetess Then?​

If you read carefully, you are taking sister White out of context. I demonstrate that in those three posts. Please read carefully. Thank you.

Character assassination. Not worth addressing. Next.

Okay - soooooo, you accuse me of taking EG White out of context - yet it's okay when YOU do it regarding the Catholic Church??

You absolutely took Alphonsus Liguori - and Innocent III out of context as they were using allegorical/symbolic language based on passages of Scripture, as I explained to you. You are acting as if these words came out of his head for "no reason" at all, which is dishonest on your part. As I showed you from the FULL quote from the Catechism - Athanasius also used this symbolic language regarding the priesthood.

As I stated before – when you are ready to have an educated conversation – let me know . . .

 

[Yeshua1]

Saimana Faumuina, a gentile believer in the Messiahship of Yeshua.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is Jesus Yahweh to you?

 

[timtofly]

Depends on the resurrection you refer to. The resurrection in Revelation 20:4 has not taken place, that is for certain. I never said otherwise. I spoke of other resurrections that did take place (Moses (glorified, see Luke 9:31), Firstfruits and Jesus' own).

The persons, such as Enoch (never died), Elijah (never died), Moses, the Firstfruits (Matt 27) and Jesus all have glorified bodies. The last three (Moses, firstfruits and Jesus) have all been resurrected from sleep/death and have entered Heaven after.

Isa_26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Dan_12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.​

Moses did not die. The fight over his body was not over a dead body. The fight was because the body was alive. Satan demanded a dead body, but never received one, because it was not dead.

Enoch and Elijah are the same person.

That is why the four beast are the four witnesses. They are 4 humans. Two menorahs, and two olive trees. Revelation 11:4
"These are the two olive trees and the two menorahs standing before the Lord of the earth."

 

[Yeshua1]

I said nothing about "secret" creations. Scripture plainly mentions these, as cited in the OP, notice again:

Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luk 15:5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
Luk 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Rev_12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.​

This world is the one lost sheep. The 99 are the representative of the unfallen worlds ["friends and neighbours", see Psalms 24 and Revelation 4-5], which "need no repentance", and "which went no astray" (did not sin), who "rejoice[d]" when Jesus return to Heaven ["home"], where they all dwell.

As it is written:

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Joh 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.​

Each "world" is as a "mansion" or gorgeous room, within the "Father's house", which is the universe spread out like a "tent" for God and His whole family.

Isa_40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:​

The 24 Elder (aka "Ancients") are the representatives of the unfallen worlds before God. They are distinct from the other angels (morning stars). Notice:

Job_38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?​

When Adam was created, He was called a "son of God".:

Luk_3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.​

Adam had Dominion over this world, until satan usurped it, and became the new "god of this world" (2 Corinthians 4:4).

You may understand our position better if you consider this presentation on it:

In part, yes. No question. As it is written:

Mat_6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Luk_11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.​

Thus, when God had Moses to separate the tribes, etc, it was after a pattern, that already existed in Heaven. The earthly model was to reflect the Heavenly model already present (before a Levitical priest ever existed).

This is where the occult (Jesuits, Masons, etc) and astrologists twist the scripture, "As above, so below.", and seek for guidance for things on earth by planetary motions, etc., all of which is simply taking that which was God's plan and altering it to suit the carnal heart.

The supreme irony is that while ellen white did not believe in hell, she is there right now!

 

[timtofly]

The supreme irony is that while ellen white did not believe in hell, she is there right now!

And folks here say my post are lies.

Did you watch her die, and did God show you were her soul went?

Why would God tell you where souls go when they die? You, EGW, and many others make claims quite often, that are not true. Those claims do not determine where your soul is going to be when you die. Thank God.

Now people who constantly keep lying, Jesus clearly states who their father is.

 

[Yeshua1]

And folks here say my post are lies.

Did you watch her die, and did God show you were her soul went?

Why would God tell you where souls go when they die? You, EGW, and many others make claims quite often, that are not true. Those claims do not determine where your soul is going to be when you die. Thank God.

Now people who constantly keep lying, Jesus clearly states who their father is.

Paul would agree with me on her, Galatians 1:8!

 

[timtofly]

Paul would agree with me on her, Galatians 1:8!

So you were there when she died in 1915?

How else would you know her physical condition? Would you trust hearsay?

 

[Alofa Atu]

Moses did not die. ...

It is written:

Deu_34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.​

I trust God's word over yours. Further evidence:

Moses, according to the Word of the LORD, died in the land of Moab, and fell on the sleep of death, and was buried by the LORD Himself.

Furthermore the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, and sware that I should not go over Jordan, and that I should not go in unto that good land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance: Deuteronomy 4:21

But I must die in this land, I must not go over Jordan: but ye shall go over, and possess that good land. Deuteronomy 4:22

And he said unto them, I am an hundred and twenty years old this day; I can no more go out and come in: also the LORD hath said unto me, Thou shalt not go over this Jordan. Deuteronomy 31:2

And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thy days approach that thou must die: call Joshua, and present yourselves in the tabernacle of the congregation, that I may give him a charge. And Moses and Joshua went, and presented themselves in the tabernacle of the congregation. Deuteronomy 31:14

And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Deuteronomy 31:16…

And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people: Deuteronomy 32:40...

So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. Deuteronomy 34:5

And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. Deuteronomy 34:6

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. Jude 1:9

And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated. Deuteronomy 34:7

And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended. Deuteronomy 34:8…

And when thou hast seen it, thou also shalt be gathered unto thy people, as Aaron thy brother was gathered. Numbers 27:13

Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people. Numbers 31:2

Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. John 8:52

Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? John 8:53

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Romans 5:14​

 

[Alofa Atu]

...Enoch and Elijah are the same person. ...

I know of no "Baptist" who teaches that, as it is unscriptural. What are you?

Enoch was the 7th from Adam (as per Genesis 5:18, Luke 3:37, etc):

Jud_1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,​

Not so Elijah, who was a Tishbite, of Gilead:

1Ki_17:1 And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the LORD God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.

1Ki_21:17 And the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying,

1Ki_21:28 And the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying,

2Ki_1:3 But the angel of the LORD said to Elijah the Tishbite, Arise, go up to meet the messengers of the king of Samaria, and say unto them, Is it not because there is not a God in Israel, that ye go to enquire of Baalzebub the god of Ekron?

2Ki_1:8 And they answered him, He was an hairy man, and girt with a girdle of leather about his loins. And he said, It is Elijah the Tishbite.

2Ki_9:36 Wherefore they came again, and told him. And he said, This is the word of the LORD, which he spake by his servant Elijah the Tishbite, saying, In the portion of Jezreel shall dogs eat the flesh of Jezebel:​

 

[Alofa Atu]

...As I stated before – when you are ready to have a [...] conversation – let me know . . .

If you want to leave the conversation, that is your prerogative. I can see why you would want to though. As you will.

 

[Alofa Atu]

That was only during that 3 day period. Jesus received His glorified body, after ascending to heaven. He then came back to meet with the disciples in the upper room. He visited with them for 40 days.

He appeared to Mary, and the two walking to another village in that form. From what is indicated, the OT saints came out of the graves as ghosts themselves. They also walked around Jerusalem with Jesus. Jesus told Mary they had not gone to Paradise yet. They had to wait 3.5 days. After that is when Jesus returned to meet with the disciples in the upper room.

Did you read Isaiah 26:19 about the "dead body" of Jesus being raised with the others, and Matthew 27 in connection with its fulfillment? Luke 24:39 is indeed after Jesus ascended and returned to meet with the disciples, which is a fulfillment of other typology and prophecy.

Yet you intend that the scripture teaches Jesus was a 'ghost' until he returned to meet with the disciples? Isaiah 26:19 and Matthew 27 do not share your spiritualistic view. Furthermore, it is written:

Joh 20:11 But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
Joh 20:12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. [Past tense, the body was in the tomb, but when resurrected and glorified, got up and walked out. There is no 'ghost' here.]
Joh 20:13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him. [Mary was confused, as the body of Jesus was missing from inside of the tomb, for she had not yet known of His resurrection.]
Joh 20:14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. [She did not know it was Jesus for several reasons. She was weeping, the unexpected resurrection (her mind did not expect Jesus could be alive to make such connection), Jesus had a change of clothes (was not in the burial clothes as had been, for they remained in the tomb) and Jesus was glorofied, no longer weak, emaciated in fallen flesh.]
Joh 20:15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
Joh 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.[Jesus spake with a mouth, which must have vocal chords, a throat, tongue, etc all connected together in His resurrected and glorified body. With what shall you have a 'ghost' speak with? Name the parts it uses to do this.]
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. [Mary tried to touch Jesus' resurrected and glorified body, but He restrained her from so doing, until He had ascended and returned.]
Joh 20:18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her. [Mary does not recount having seen a 'ghost'. She recounts having seen "the Lord", knowing now the reason for the missing body from the tomb.]​

The other Gospels share the same:

Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Mat 28:5 And the angel [Gabriel] answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
Mat 28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. [the body of Jesus was now missing from the tomb, as when Gabriel (and also 'herald') came down, by command of the Father, called forth the Son to life, who arose bodily and walked out of the tomb, saying, "I am the resurrection and the Life."]
Mat 28:7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

Mat 28:8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
Mat 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
Mat 28:10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.​

Spiritualism teaches that 'ghosts' do not need resurrection, nor have any. 'Ghosts' don't have 'feet', as it is an attribute of the body. A 'spirit-body' is a contradiction in terms, a self contradiction.

Mar 16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

Luk 24:3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.

Luk 24:5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
Luk 24:6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
Luk 24:7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. [Just as foretold]

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Joh 2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Joh 20:2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

Joh 20:5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
Joh 20:6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
Joh 20:7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.​

The Pharisees, Romans, etc were not afraid of a 'ghost' returning. They feared a missing body. They sealed that tomb as physically as they could, and even evil and good angels surrounded it. It was the most protected place ever on earth.

You are teaching pure spiritualism, that Jesus was a 'ghost'. It is not Baptist theology. It is satan's theology. It is antithetical to the Gospel itself, and to all the evidence of the resurrection.

 

[timtofly]

It is written:

Deu_34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.​

I trust God's word over yours. Further evidence:

Moses, according to the Word of the LORD, died in the land of Moab, and fell on the sleep of death, and was buried by the LORD Himself.

Furthermore the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, and sware that I should not go over Jordan, and that I should not go in unto that good land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance: Deuteronomy 4:21

But I must die in this land, I must not go over Jordan: but ye shall go over, and possess that good land. Deuteronomy 4:22

And he said unto them, I am an hundred and twenty years old this day; I can no more go out and come in: also the LORD hath said unto me, Thou shalt not go over this Jordan. Deuteronomy 31:2

And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thy days approach that thou must die: call Joshua, and present yourselves in the tabernacle of the congregation, that I may give him a charge. And Moses and Joshua went, and presented themselves in the tabernacle of the congregation. Deuteronomy 31:14

And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Deuteronomy 31:16…

And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people: Deuteronomy 32:40...

So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. Deuteronomy 34:5

And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. Deuteronomy 34:6

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. Jude 1:9

And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated. Deuteronomy 34:7

And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended. Deuteronomy 34:8…

And when thou hast seen it, thou also shalt be gathered unto thy people, as Aaron thy brother was gathered. Numbers 27:13

Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people. Numbers 31:2

Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. John 8:52

Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? John 8:53

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Romans 5:14​

Moses wrote his own epitaph. Does not mean he died. It meant he was not going to be on earth any more.

God never said Moses had to die. He just couldn't enter Canaan. God was not going to show us that Moses got to go in a spectacular way like Elijah did.

Moses was transported to the Mount of Transfiguration like Elijah was. God just did not let Moses have his grand exit, perhaps 100 years after entering Canaan. We will never know, because Moses lost his cool, and disobeyed God.

No, Satan could not have the body. Moses showed up with Elijah in a glorified one. Neither of them had to wait for the Cross and the day of Atonement.

If you want to be like Satan and think Moses is dead, it is a free choice. One will not be lost in their sins over the matter.

Who knows how many people think that Elijah died, it was just in a fiery blaze in the sky? Even the church may have some resurrected alive into heaven. Are they all going to be killed in mid air, just because all humans "have to die". Death is leaving this physical behind. Moses left the physical behind and was immediately on the Mt of Transfiguration with Elijah and Jesus in glorified bodies. Just like Elijah was last seen in the air, and then immediately was also on the Mount of Transfiguration. Then both Moses and Elijah immediately went where God needed them to go.