John 3:16, The word "world" according to Thayer's difinition means pertaining to believers only. 8) Any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort. a) a) used of believers only, John 1:29, 3:16, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9, 2 Cor 5:19. The all men in Acts 17:30 is all men of the elect. Everyone has a free will to make choices, but the natural man will not, and indeed, cannot choose anything that is of a spiritual nature, such as a spiritual God. 1 Cor 2:14. All scripture must be in harmony with each other without any contradictions if you are understanding the truth.
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Who are the elect?
- Thread starter Winman
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The author did an excellent job presenting his position biblically. I've maintained this for years here on the BB, that the "elect" in context (when referring to humans) refers to true Israel (not all Israel is Israel). The fact alone there are elect angels show a special subdivision among those who are the Lord's. It is mighty presumptious and haughty, IMO, for a believing gentile (who has been grafted in alongside the elect) to claim this moniker.
Forest...are you PB?
Forest...are you PB?
Completely illogical and void of context. Whosoever of believers will be saved? You are saying it should read "for God so loved believers that He gave His only Son, that whosoever (of the believers) believes will not perish but have eternal life"? Kind of redundant stating believers who believe will not perish.
Yeah, I'd say it was the title that sold you on him:
"Why God Did Not Elect Calvinists"
....if he's hammering the Calvinists he couldn't be ALL wrong, now could he?
The elect are the real Jews who are Jews inwardly, circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, born from the Jerusalem that is above who is our mother, who are Israelites indeed, from every nation, tribe, kindred, and tongue. These have always been the true Israel, OT & NT.
In the reply to a comment to him concerning the video (scroll down in the OP link), he begins with:
"Dear Friend in Yeshua"
If he's Messianic Jew of course he's going to tout DNA Israel as being the elect.
Old Union Brother
New Member
I was going to say the elect are those that God Saves, but your quote is much better.
convicted1
Guest
convicted1
Guest
I am with you on this, Brother Jeff!
May God bless you and your family, Brother! :love2:
Hi Winman, the video was too long for me, but let me address the general idea.
First it was asserted election has nothing to do with salvation. However 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says Gentiles, Thessalonians, were chosen for salvation.
Next we have a word game where the Jews are elected, but the Gentiles are "grafted." Somehow it escaped the speaker that God chose to graft some people in, making them elect for the purpose of salvation.
In summary, I do not think this view can be supported biblically, but he did make some correct points. Israel was elected corporately to carry out part of God's redemption plan, but every individual member of this corporately elected group was put into the group based on God crediting their faith as righteousness, just like Abraham.
First it was asserted election has nothing to do with salvation. However 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says Gentiles, Thessalonians, were chosen for salvation.
Next we have a word game where the Jews are elected, but the Gentiles are "grafted." Somehow it escaped the speaker that God chose to graft some people in, making them elect for the purpose of salvation.
In summary, I do not think this view can be supported biblically, but he did make some correct points. Israel was elected corporately to carry out part of God's redemption plan, but every individual member of this corporately elected group was put into the group based on God crediting their faith as righteousness, just like Abraham.
what saves either jew or gentile though?
Our "personal faith" that we choose to exercise in receiving Christ, or His election of us due to JUST His own Will?
Does it go faith , than God elects us based upon our response to Him
OR
does it go God first choses us, election, that results in us placing faith in jesus and get saved?
convicted1
Guest
I guess not......LOL
Reply again
Jesus saves everyone. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus, He is the way.
Just His own will, for it does not depend upon the man that wills, Romans 9:16
Yes and no, we are first called by the gospel, and if we received Christ, God credits our faith as righteousness or not, depending on His sovereign choice, but if He does, then He puts us spiritually "in Christ" and seals us in Him with the Holy Spirit.
Yes, He chooses us for salvation by setting aside in Christ,i.e through sanctification by the Spirit, and those He sets apart are those whose faith He credits as righteousness, i.e. through faith in the truth in God's eyes, not ours.
God choose in his covenant an elect people before the foundation of the world, Eph 1, and gave them to Christ to die for their sins which he did upon the cross without the lose of one, John 6:37-41. As his elect are born into this world as natural beings God will quicken them to a spiritual life and then through the instructions of the Holy Spirit they will believe. Christ secured those that God gave him for eternal life while he was on the cross, those of his elect who were before Christ, and those that would be born after Christ's crucification. Eternal salvation happened for all of God's elect by Christ on the cross. Not one soul has been saved eternally sense the event on the cross. Christ died for "the world of God's elect". The scriptures were written not to those that are not His, but to his elect as instructions of how they should live their lives here as they sojourn in this world. The scriptures tell us how his elect were saved eternally, and does not tell us how we are to be saved eternally. All scriptures must harmonise before you understand the truth.
convicted1
Guest
God's Elect is Jesus Christ, the chosen Lamb of God to die for the sin of the world. We who are saved are grafted into His Election.
One of the confusions that happens is we have multiple people being "elected" and for different reasons. As convicted1 mentioned, Jesus Christ is the elect. Isaiah 42:1-8. In Deuteronomy 14:2 we see the Jews being chosen. In 2 Thessalonians 2:13 we see people being chosen for salvation. The disciples were chosen by Jesus. Mary was chosen to the mother of Jesus on earth.
The problem with the video is that the guy took one reason and assumed it always means that. He then forced the meaning of all other passages to mean the same.
The problem with the video is that the guy took one reason and assumed it always means that. He then forced the meaning of all other passages to mean the same.
convicted1
Guest
I see Ephesians 1 as God's chosen being the OT Prophets, and the Disciples, etc. They were on an entirely different playing field than we were. God spoke to these verbally, whereas we hear Him speak through His written Word.
They were given power to raise the dead, heal the sick, give sight to the blind, make the lame to walk, the deaf to hear, etc. We don't have that power, but we do have the power of prayer.
Yes, the who are elect needs first to address elected for what purpose of God? So the real topic is who are the elect for salvation! Not elect to be the Messiah, only Christ fills that bill, not elect to be a prophet of God, or a bad purpose like Judas, but for the purpose of salvation. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 tells us those individuals chosen for that purpose were chosen from the beginning not before the foundation of the world, and they were chosen by God in the Person of the Holy Spirit setting those individuals apart in Christ and those who were chosen were chosen based on God crediting their faith as righteousness.
Folks that throw in elections for other purposes are just throwing up smoke to cloud the issue.
Folks that throw in elections for other purposes are just throwing up smoke to cloud the issue.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Exodus 19:
5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you[Or possession, for the whole earth is mine. You] will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”
Ephesians 1:
11 In him we were also chosen,[Or were made heirs] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
Revelation 7:
4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
Matthew 15:24
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
John 1:
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
Luke 12:9
But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God.
Psalm 69:28
May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.
Revelation 3:5
The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.
Romans 11:
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
Revelation 7:
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”
Romans 11:
23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Hebrews 5:
8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek
5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you[Or possession, for the whole earth is mine. You] will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”
Ephesians 1:
11 In him we were also chosen,[Or were made heirs] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
Revelation 7:
4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
Matthew 15:24
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
John 1:
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
Luke 12:9
But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God.
Psalm 69:28
May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.
Revelation 3:5
The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.
Romans 11:
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
Revelation 7:
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”
Romans 11:
23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Hebrews 5:
8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek
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