Who are the sheep and the goats?

lol

 

What is a fake believer, and how do you know you aren't one?

 

Matthew 25:38-40
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

This is nothing to do with accepting Jesus, these are works of righteousness that the believers are being rewarded for. Jesus didn't say 'Insomuch as ye truly believed, ye have done these things unto me'.

 

1. Wicked destroyed by fire (Revelation 20:9).

2. New heavens and earth created (Isaiah 65:17; 2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1).

3. God's people enjoy eternity with Christ on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

 

true enough

 

oh i know. everything we do we have to do it as unto the Lord.


what is a fake believer? look at how Jesus describes the stony ground hearer in Luke 8? ican't remember.

how do we know we aren't one?

well: here's how we know that we are a true believer:

quote from True/False conversion audio transcript found at www.livingwaters.com

"So the true believer brings forth the fruit of a new lifestyle, a lifestyle that is pleasing in the sight of Almighty God. If
we are rooted and grounded in Christ, it should be evident. Jesus said, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He
that abides in Me and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit.” Colossians 1, speaking of the gospel, says “the
gospel brings forth fruit in the believer.”
Okay, what does the Bible mean when it speaks of fruit? Specifically? Well, #1, the fruit of repentance (Matthew
3:8). Zacchaeus had “more than tears.” He said, “Behold, Lord, if I’ve wronged anyone I’ll pay him back fourfold.
I’ll give half my goods to the poor.” He knew God’s Law. He was a Godly Jew. That’s what brought him to Christ.
It was the schoolmaster to bring him to Christ as a Godly Jew, knowing God’s Law. Or should I say, “a Jew that
was humbled by the Law.” He said, “Behold, Lord, if I’ve wronged anyone I’ll pay back fourfold,” which is what the
Law demanded.
I remember reading some years ago about a store that said in a newspaper they found a brown paper bag outside
their door on a Monday morning. They opened it up and there was a pair of pants and a note that said, “I stole
these from you on Friday, became a Christian on Sunday. Here’s the pants Monday. I’m sorry.” That’s fruit of
repentance.
Secondly, the fruit of good works. John Wesley said, it was Colossians 1:10, John Wesley said, “Do all the good
you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, to all the people you can, as
long as you ever can.”
Now if anyone was zealous for evangelism, it was John Wesley. He had a zeal that turned the United Kingdom
upside down. But he said, “Do all the good you can” because he saw in Scripture that good works are a legitimate
tool in evangelism.
Now the modern church, because of what’s happened to some fiery Christian organizations over the years that
have got into social work, they’ve noticed they’ve become lopsided, and they’ve steered away from good works.
And yet the Bible says in the book of Titus, “Let those who of you who have believed in God be careful to maintain
good works.” Jesus said, “Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your
Father which is in Heaven.”
When I was first a Christian, I was… I could be considered by the world as a fanatic. I mean, really fanatical. I
haven’t changed at all. And I used to make leather jackets and suede coats to order for people for years. I made
about 1500 over a ten-year period, and I followed in my father’s footsteps. You know who the first one was to make
a leather jacket? Genesis tells us. God made… clothed Adam and Eve in the skins of animals. Not caveman
stuff. Fully lined, with covered buttons. I mean class. When God does something, He does it properly.
And I actually had this in a brochure that I had, and it just said that. “God was first to kill an animal and clothe man
in the skins of animals.” And I said I was following in my Father’s footsteps, and led through the covering that God
offers through Christ.
But on the window of my store, I had about a 10 foot by 8 foot window to let in the natural light. I had a Hare
Krishna guy got soundly saved. The thing that brought him to Christ, I said “Was it the preaching, what was it?”
And he says, “It was the handshake.” Feel a Christian shook his hand, he just felt a genuineness, and gave some
consideration to the claims of the Gospel, gave his life to Christ, and within half an hour he’s eating a T-bone steak.
I mean, really set free.
And he said… I said, “Ron, what do you do for a living, what did you do?” He said, “I’m a sign writer.” I said,
“Really?” And I got him to, on a 10 foot by 8 foot piece of board, to sign write John 3:1-16. And I put it on my
window. Incredible amount of work for the poor guy. And he said night after night he was doing this sign. And one
night he was very discouraged because it was kind of half an hour per letter to get it right. And he stood back, he
felt quite discouraged, he stood back and he read the words, “No man can do these signs that you do unless God is
with him,” and he was greatly encouraged by the Lord.
Anyway, I put this sign up in the window, and I had on the door, “Behold I stand at the door and knock,” a lot of
Scriptures. And I shared the entrance with a barber. And this barber called me to him one day, and he says, “Ray,
I’ve got to tell you something.” He said, “Guys come into my store, they sit down in the seat, and they turn back
here, and they just say with utter disgust and contempt, ‘What a fanatic next door.’ And they just couldn’t say
anything more, and nausea consumed them.”
But he said, “A number of months ago when you put out a book called My Friends Are Dying and got into drug
prevention work, the same guys would come into the store, sit down for a haircut, and say ‘Doing a good job, that
young man next door.’”
And all that was happening was the fruit of 1 Peter 2:15. Listen to it. “For so is the will of God that by your welldoing
you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men.” “For so is the will of God that by your well-doing you
may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men.” If you’re a Christian who is rich in good works, people will say, “I
don’t believe what he believes, but boy I can see that he’s genuine.” You’ll put them to silence, you’ll stop their
mouth by your good works.
And I saw this a number of years ago. So as an assistant pastor of a local assembly, I said, “Let’s get into good
works.” So I went to a place that sold vegetables, I said “Look, I want to give away 100 bags of vegetables around
our local church.” I said, “Can you supply us?” They said, “Yeah. If you let us put our name on the bag, we’ll give
you a good deal. In fact, we’ll give you double.” So what they did, is they gave us a bag about three feet high
packed full of carrots, cabbages, all sorts, corn, all sorts of vegetables, and they put their name on it.
And then we got on a truck, we put a letter on each bag that said something like, “Dear friend.” It didn’t say,
“Greetings in the wonderful name of Jesus,” there was nothing Christian on it at all. “Dear friend or neighbor, we’re
concerned about you, we care about you, we’re a local church in your area. If we can help mow your lawn, trim
your hedge, if there’s anything we can do to help you, please call on us. We’re here for your benefit. Yours,
sincerely,” and just signed it. Put that at the top of the bags, then put them at the gates of 100 homes. Now I said
to the guys putting them there, “Don’t knock on the door, don’t get into a conversation, don’t let anyone think you’re
trying to get a foot in their door.”
The reaction was incredible. We had people stop us on the street and burst into tears. One woman burst into tears
of gratitude. Another woman said, “I have been in this area 60 years, and this is the first time the local church has
done anything for me.” Another one said, “I’m an atheist, but I just want to wish you all the best in the community.”
Another guy, his girlfriend made a commitment to the Lord, and told him. He put his fist into the wall with anger
because he was a professing atheist and he saw an evident token of the love of God in those vegetables, and he
could not handle it. He just went “umph” like that. I mean, it was just such a powerful thing. One woman, as I said,
she said, “I couldn’t believe these vegetables were mine.” Two bucks, is what that bag of vegetables cost. Two
dollars. “For so is the will of God that by your good works you put to silence the ignorance of foolish men.” “Let
your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in Heaven.” The
fruit of good works.
Number three, the fruit of thanksgiving (Hebrews 13:15). I mean, if you’re soundly saved, there should be a cry
within your heart, “thanks be to God for the unspeakable gift.” If there isn’t the fruit of thanksgiving, if there isn’t a
gratitude burning in your soul, you may not be saved.
Number four, the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22). It should be evident in, “love, joy, peace, patience, goodness,
gentleness, faith, meekness, and temperance.”
Number five, the fruit of righteousness (Philippians 1:11). There should be the fruit of that which is right, the fruit of
righteousness in your lifestyle. Remember Matthew 3:10 says, “every tree that brings not forth good fruit will be cut
down and cast into the fire.” Therefore as Christians, in our evangelistic endeavors, we should do everything we
can not just to get decisions, not just to get church members, youth group members, but to produce fruit-bearing
commitments to Christ, because “every tree that brings not forth good fruit will be cut down and cast into the fire.” "

"This message was first preached in 1983. True and False Conversion is non-copyrighted, duplication is encouraged.
www.LivingWaters.com – Living Waters Publications, P.O. Box 1172, Bellflower, CA 90706 – Order line: 1-800-437-1893"

 

and this is what a fake believer is:

"So what we’re going to do is look at Matthew 4:3 to get an insight into what hinders and what produces genuine
fruit. Mark 4, should I say, Mark 4:3.
Now when the Bible says, “behold,” what it’s doing is blowing a little trumpet and saying, “this is important.” When
Jesus said words like, “harken,” it was a little trumpet. In verse 3 of Mark 4, Jesus uses both words. This is a
double trumpet, so this is incredibly important.
He said, “Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow: And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way
side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it. And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth;
and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and
because it had no root, it wither away. And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it
yielded no fruit. And other fell on good ground, and it did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth,
some thirty fold, and some sixty, and some a hundred. And he said to them, He that has ears to hear, let him
hear.”
“And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto
them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom: but unto them that are outside, all these things are
done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand;
lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.”
“And he said to them, don’t you know this parable? How then will you know all parables? The sower is the sower
of the word. And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan comes
immediately, and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. And these are they in like manner which are
sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; And have no
root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution arises for the word's
sake, immediately they are offended. And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
And the cares of this age, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word,
and it becomes unfruitful. And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive
it, and some bring forth fruit, some thirty fold, some sixty, and some a hundredfold.”
Verse 13, I think is one of the key verses in the entire Bible. Jesus said to them, “Don’t you know this parable?
How then will you know all parables?” In other words, the parable of the sower is the key to unlock the mystery of
all the other parables. When you and I get a grip on the understanding that the parable of the sower is about true
and false conversion, stony ground hearer, thorny ground hearer, good soil hearer, two false, one genuine, then we
begin to understand the other parables, that there are true and false conversions. The good fish, and the bad fish,
the true and the false. The foolish virgins, the false, the wise virgins, the true. The man who built his house on
rock, the genuine convert. The man who built his house on sand, the false convert.
See I used to think the foolish man who built his house on sand was the unbeliever. No, you read what Jesus said.
He said, “he that hears my sayings and does not obey them is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.” The
ungodly don’t hear the saying of Jesus. Most of them know “judge not lest you be judged,” and the golden rule, “do
to others as you’d have them do to you.” And both, they’re twisted, they don’t understand them.
No, the church is filled with people who hear the sayings of Jesus and don’t obey them. They don’t evangelize,
even though Jesus said, “you are my witnesses,” “let your light shine before men,” “go unto all the world and preach
the gospel to every creature.” They don’t. They are like the man who built his house on sand.
Now using the harmony of the gospel, and the parable of the sower is also Luke 13, sorry, Luke 8 and Matthew 13,
using the harmony of the gospel we’re going to look at the six characteristics of a false convert, the stony ground
hearer.
Firstly, with a false convert, according to Mark 4:5, there are immediate results. They don’t weigh the issues. The
gospel they hear is not a gospel that’s preceded by the Law. They’re not made to tremble before the throne of a
holy God. They’re told they need to get assurance they’re going to Heaven. They think they’re already going to
Heaven. Most people think that. Why? They go about to establish their own righteousness, being ignorant of the
righteousness which is of God.
62% of Americans believe in a literal Hell, but they don’t believe they’re going there. They think they’re too good.
Now that’s human nature. “Every man will proclaim his own goodness.” “There is a way that seems right to man,
but the end thereof is the way of death.” The modern gospel says, “You need to have assurance that you’re going
to Heaven. You shouldn’t go to Hell. You need to come and give your life to Christ. You must have faith in Jesus,”
and they preach Christ crucified.
So the sinner thinks he deserves Heaven anyway, comes and gives his heart to Jesus, and gets assurance he’s
going to Heaven. He’s got no understanding of sin because Paul said, “I had not known sin but by the Law.” 1
John 3:4 says, “sin is transgression of the Law.” He’s given assurance that he’s saved, he’s followed up, he’s set in
a church, he finds new friends, a new lifestyle, gets ahold of his alcohol problem, deals with it, and things go sweet.
And there’s still no repentance, and when there’s no understanding of sin, there is no Godly sorrow, which works
repentance. And Jesus said, “Unless you repent, you will perish.” And the church is filled with people who have
assurance of salvation when it’s not Holy Ghost assurance. These ones don’t weigh the issues. It’s easy to get a
decision from them because the bait of eternal life is hung in front of them.
Secondly, there is a lack of moisture (Luke 8:6). There is no thirst for God, for the living God.
Thirdly, there’s no root in themselves (Matthew 13:6). There is no depth of Godly character.
Number four, they receive the Word with gladness. Again, there’s no Godly sorrow because the Law hasn’t been
brought to them that they might see themselves in truth. God’s Law is like a mirror. When there’s no mirror, you
can go around the whole day, if someone doesn’t tell you, and have a dirty face. You’ve got no idea.
Each day, every one of us looks in the mirror to see the state. You get up in the morning, look in the mirror to see
what damage has been done during the night. I mean, there’s no greater evidence that we’re in a fallen creation as
looking in the mirror first thing in the morning. I mean, we rest ourselves after a hard day. So in the morning, you
should be rested. No, the eyes are puffy, you say, “Ugh… oh…”
They don’t look into the perfect Law of liberty and see themselves in truth. God’s Law is like a mirror. Therefore,
they don’t go to the water of the blood of Christ to wash, because they don’t see themselves as in desperate need
of God’s forgiveness. Paul said, “by the commandment, sin became exceedingly sinful.” (Romans 7:13). So they
receive the Word with gladness (Mark 4:16).
Number five, they receive the Word with joy. Their laughter isn’t turned to mourning, and their joy isn’t turned to
heaviness (Matthew 13:20).
And Number six, for a while they do believe. (Luke 8:13). There is a genuine false conversion experience. For a
while they do believe."

"This message was first preached in 1983. True and False Conversion is non-copyrighted, duplication is encouraged.
www.LivingWaters.com – Living Waters Publications, P.O. Box 1172, Bellflower, CA 90706 – Order line: 1-800-437-1893"

 

This is all great, but how is conversion and belief the same thing? Peter was a believer before he was converted. I was a believer before I was converted. Jesus didn't say 'whosoever is converted will be saved'. This is a problem. Jesus will save believers, not converts. You have to believe to be converted, but you don't have to be converted to believe. So if a bunch of unconverted goats think they are doing great things for the Lord, but their hearts are wrong and they omit the weightier matters, they will still be saved. Even if it is 'as by fire'.

Ray Comfort has a lot of good stuff to say, but this idea of working to prove you are saved is not part of it. They get right up to the cross, but then say ok, pick it up and you will be saved.

 

take up your cross daily - isnt that a verse in the bible?

who said we had to prove anything?

 

You can word it any way you want to, if your saved you will automatically have works, or if you aren't working your not really saved, or whatever. It means the same thing. You are looking at your works and saying 'my what lovely fruit, I must truly be saved.'

Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Is that not exactly what these people here are doing? What about this guy?

Luke 18:11-12
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

You ought to pick up your cross daily, but is this what saves you? I hear the Comfort squad on the streets of Fort Worth, and they tell people that salvation is like a parachute, that you have to put the parachute on to really be saved. How do I put it on? How many times do I have to put on the parachute? If I sin, does the parachute come off? If I have to look at anything but the cross of Jesus Christ to know I am saved, I can never know I am saved.

 

Fake Believer.

1. It is mentioned in Mt 7:16-20 as well.

2.Read 1 John 2:19.
They went out from us, but they were not of us ; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us


3. Even in the following case the salvation may be a little doubtful.

Therefore Paul asks in 2 Cor 13:5

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you Examine yourselves , except ye be reprobates?

(If you do not know your own selves that Jesus Christ is in you, then you are reprobates!)


There were fake believers even at the time of Early Churches.

If anyone is born again truly, his or her life is changed.

In most cases, not in all cases, if we hear the testimony about how someone is saved or believed in Jesus, we can discern whether such person is truly saved or not. I am not talking about any works after the salvation.

Please note what the Lord says:
Mt 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


He doesn't say that I knew you before but deserted you now.

From the beginning, I knew ye not!


If anyone is truly born again, his or her life is authomatically changed because Holy Spirit works in them.

 

Matthew 7 16-20 is dealing with false prophets. Do you have to be a prophet now to be saved? We should examine the fruits of teachers.

All these things are true, we should examing ourselves, we should look at the fruit in our lives and see if we are walking in a way that is pleasing to the Lord. But we have to be saved first.

You and I are both saved. I think. Anyway, we both believe that Jesus died for our sins, that he is the perfect sacrifice and nothing else could atone for our sins. That does not mean that I know Christ, or that you know Christ. Knowing Christ comes through fellowship, through abiding in His word. Either of us could hear those same words from the Lord, I never knew you, if we are not right in our heart, and we are not walking in fellowship with the Lord. We can easily decieve ourselves into thinking that because we have some fruit and feel holy that we are walking in fellowship with the Lord.

Thank the Lord that my eternal salvation is based on what He did, not on what I do.

 

The sheep and the goats Scripture is given by Christ right after He explains the Tribulation and His return in Mt. 24.

The sheep are those that helped the Jews and the Christian converts during the Tribulation. The goats did nothing.

The sheep get to live on and populate the earthly kingdom without then there would be no peopel left on Earth (the saints being spiritual now in our new glorified bodies). The goats get killed and sent to hell.

These verses could in no way refer to salvation since salvation is not of works. The Scripture here needs to be taken in context to Mt. 24.

 

Amen, Brother JackRUS -- Preach it!

 

So now we are to believe that unbelievers can be saved by their works?

Matthew 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I would think that these unbelievers in the tribulation would have a hard time ministering to the jews if they were themselves unable to buy or sell without the mark. They do have a mark right?

Revelation 14:9-10
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

 

This interpretation is often found among the true believers. In our church there are many who preach as you do.

Do you think some of the goats or all of the goats could have been saved? Then the saved people will go to the Hell ?

Born-again believers will not go to Hell because of any act or any behavior. There was a fundamental problem with the belief of the goats.
They were not saved! Therefore their life was fruitless!

This interpretation is found among many who believe the Rapture before Tribulation, which is wrong as we read Rev 11 and 12.

 

Matt 7:17-19
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Do you know that all believers are the prophets, either great or small?

1 Cor 11:4-5

Every man praying or prophesying , having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. 5 But every woman prophesieth that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

My eternal salvation is not based my works or my behavior but my life was totally changed since my salvation.

Martin Luther was changed since he was born again reading Romans 1:17

John Wesley was changed on May 24, 1738 after he was a priest of Anglican church. Thereafter his life was totally changed.

Pascal was born again on Nov 23, 1654.

Good works or good behavior are not the pre-requisite for the salvation, but are the result of salvation as Jesus said in Matt 7:17-19

 

All those guys have books written about them. What does that prove? Many people have had their lives changed by Christ, He is in the business of changing lives. But it doesn't follow that everyone who believes is going to change. I agree wholeheartedly that everything you say is evidence of salvation ought to occur in the believers life. But believers can resist the Holy Spirit, and they can sin horribly. And they will be judged for their works, not for their eternal salvation, but there will be a reward for wickedness in a believer.

Hebrews 10:29
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

How can someone who is sanctified by the blood of the covenant be found to be a 'false believer'? How does one get to be sanctified by the blood of the covenant, if it is not by faith?

We have to keep the saving work of Christ separate from our own practical sanctification through good works. Your good works could never be enough to prove that you are saved, and what passes for good works these days would probably sicken some of those men you named above.

 

we've got to stop embracing those that name the name of Christ and saying "you're a christian you've accepted Jesus in your heart"

who do you know who isn't saved?