Who are the sheep and the goats?

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by James_Newman:

How can someone who is sanctified by the blood of the covenant be found to be a 'false believer'? How does one get to be sanctified by the blood of the covenant, if it is not by faith?

We have to keep the saving work of Christ separate from our own practical sanctification through good works. Your good works could never be enough to prove that you are saved, and what passes for good works these days would probably sicken some of those men you named above. [/QB]

I hope we don't have any disagreement on the salvation. But there may be some disagreement on the sanctification. However, if we go deeper we may find some fundamental disagreement.

Now the question is how we are sanctified in the daily life after salvation? By doing good works ? Yes, but how in practice?
Galatian 3:3
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit , are ye now made perfect by the flesh ?

Therefore the best and the only way for us to get sanctified and to become holy is to follow the Holy Spirit who testifies what Jesus has done at the Cross. Even in the daily life we are sanctified thru what has been done by Jesus at the Cross.


Now, may I ask you this question?
How do you deal with the sins which you notice in your daily life? I must tell you that I commit sins everyday, either very small or grievous and find myself guilty. The question is what is your solution for it, and how do you resolve them in order to reconcile yourself with God? I hope you read 1 John 1 well and other Gospels.

 

[James_Newman]

The only way I know to take care of sins in my life is to confess them to God.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

But I don't do this to somehow merit eternal salvation. 1 John only makes sense when you consider that it is written for believers. An unbeliever cannot come to God and confess his sins to be forgiven. They do not have access to the throne of grace, which is made possible for us through the blood. Else why would Christ have had to die? Why did He die, for that matter?

Ephesians 2:18-20
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

We have become members of the household of God because we now have access to the Father. We don't go to the Father to ask for permission to stay in the house.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

But we are under the rules of His house now, and the members of the house are going to give account to the master when He returns. We are going to be saved on the last day regardless, which is what He promised. But we may not be saved at the judgment seat of Christ from His wrath, if we have not confessed our sins and repented of them.

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

This word certain used to get lost on me, I think I interpretted it as 'particular', like I like a certain pair of socks. But it is certain as in it is going to come certain. If we, of the household of faith, sin willfully, we will certainly be judged and there is no respect of persons. There is mercy with the Lord, if we will confess our sin to Him, He is faithful and just to forgive us. But woe unto us if we think that whatever good works we may have will save us from His fiery indignation on that day. This is why it is important for believers to be sanctified in their daily walk, not to be saved on the last day, but to be found acceptable before Jesus at His return. Judgment begins at the house of God.

 

[Eliyahu]

J-N,
Now I feel you are quite correct.
God doesn't forgive without Blood. If you know the difference between Confessing Sins and Asking God for the Forgiveness of Sins, then you are correct.
We must Confess our sins, which results from Heartful Repentance and comes from Contrite soul.
We don't ask God to forgive newly because we believe that God has forgiven our sins thru the redemption of Jesus Christ, but confess to God that we committed the sins, then God give us the forgiveness by revealing us that such sins were already forgiven at the Cross and it was included in that forgiveness already. Such revelation is done daily and newly but the actual forgiveness was done at the Cross 2000 years ago.
When we are sanctified, it is not done by our efforts but by the work of Holy Spirit, by the grace of God.

But I was a little confused by your comment on this:


J-N said:
We are going to be saved on the last day regardless, which is what He promised. But we may not be saved at the judgment seat of Christ from His wrath, if we have not confessed our sins and repented of them.


We may have some sins which we have not confessed unknowingly, then do you think we lose the salvation?

 

[J. Jump]

Eliyahu if our sins were already forgiven at the cross then there would be no need to confess them to God. That would be pointless. Because when our sins are forgiven they are removed as far as the east is from the west not to be remembered again.

Confessing sin that is already a non-issue is redundant. The sins that we commit after salvation by grace through faith are not committed in a forgiven state. That's why I John tells us they must be confessed in order to be forgiven. If they aren't confessed they aren't forgiven.

Now you are correct in that it is the shed blood of Christ on the cross 2000 years ago that makes that possible, but they weren't forgiven at that point. They aren't forgiven until they are confessed. Christ's blood is still on the mercy seat.

Again if our sins are forgiven then there is no need for Christ to be a High Priest, but that is exactly what He is doing now. He is the advocate before the Father when we do sin. If those sins are already forgiven and dealt with we don't need an advocate.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:

J-N said:
We are going to be saved on the last day regardless, which is what He promised. But we may not be saved at the judgment seat of Christ from His wrath, if we have not confessed our sins and repented of them.


We may have some sins which we have not confessed unknowingly, then do you think we lose the salvation?

I do not believe a child of God will ever lose the eternal gift that was given freely. I do believe that there are many conditional blessings that a believer will miss if he doesn't submit to the chastening of the Lord and allow the Holy Spirit to clean him up. Primarily, the thousand year kingdom of God on this earth.

 

[Jacob Dahlen]

The sheep are those who are going to heaven, and the goats are those that are going to hell.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Eliyahu:

J-N said:
We are going to be saved on the last day regardless, which is what He promised. But we may not be saved at the judgment seat of Christ from His wrath, if we have not confessed our sins and repented of them.


We may have some sins which we have not confessed unknowingly, then do you think we lose the salvation?

I do not believe a child of God will ever lose the eternal gift that was given freely. I do believe that there are many conditional blessings that a believer will miss if he doesn't submit to the chastening of the Lord and allow the Holy Spirit to clean him up. Primarily, the thousand year kingdom of God on this earth. </font>[/QUOTE]You may be correct or are in the acceptable range. You are quite correct in saying that there are many conditional blessings, not the matter of going to the Hell. Goats are going to where the devil and his angels are going.(Matt 25:41)

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by J. Jump:
Eliyahu if our sins were already forgiven at the cross then there would be no need to confess them to God. That would be pointless. Because when our sins are forgiven they are removed as far as the east is from the west not to be remembered again.

Confessing sin that is already a non-issue is redundant. The sins that we commit after salvation by grace through faith are not committed in a forgiven state. That's why I John tells us they must be confessed in order to be forgiven. If they aren't confessed they aren't forgiven.

Now you are correct in that it is the shed blood of Christ on the cross 2000 years ago that makes that possible, but they weren't forgiven at that point. They aren't forgiven until they are confessed. Christ's blood is still on the mercy seat.

Again if our sins are forgiven then there is no need for Christ to be a High Priest, but that is exactly what He is doing now. He is the advocate before the Father when we do sin. If those sins are already forgiven and dealt with we don't need an advocate.

Now I can understand what you mean, though I differ from you in the way of expression.
I hope you differentiate between Confession and Asking Forgiveness.
When Jesus Christ works for us, He does it by reminding us of the Cross. Yes, such Reminder is not given unless we repent and confess the sin.
However, it is not the new redemption. Forgiveness means Redemption, and if the Redemption was done at the Cross, the forgiveness was done already at the Cross. If anyone doesn't confess the sin, such person is committing the sin of unbelieving what was done already at the Cross. Such person couldn't believe the forgiveness because he or she didn't repent and confess the sin.
I may have mentioned to you about Hitler or Stalin. Their sins were forgiven at the Cross, but they didn't believe it and therefore their sins remain as they are.
In this context, what we have to be clear about are:
1) Jesus paid all the prices for the sins once for all.
2) even the future sins were forgiven at the Cross.
3) If anyone doesn't repent and confess the sins, such forgiveness doesn't become his or her own.
4) When we confess our sins, God doesn't use any other method than the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. He reveals such sins were forgiven already at the Cross unto the person who repent and confess the sins.
5) If anyone continue to ask God to forgive the sins without relying on the Cross and bringing the redemption by Jesus Christ, it is wrong as we find it in the Roman Catholic Mass where the priests ask God to forgive the sins everyweek then do not mention such sins were forgiven already at the Cross.

6) There is no other way for resolving our sins than the redemption at the Cross.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
You may be correct or are in the acceptable range. You are quite correct in saying that there are many conditional blessings, not the matter of going to the Hell. Goats are going to where the devil and his angels are going.(Matt 25:41)

I couldn't agree more. But I don't believe they will be left there. Even Satan himself will come out of hell at the end of the thousand years, but he will then go into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:13-15
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

How can you be sure that a born again believer will not be among these who are delivered out of hell at the great white throne?

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Who's eyes is God wiping the tears from?

Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[James_Newman]

Talk about buried. I gotta get online more often!

 

[Eliyahu]

Hardly I can imagine that the saved, born-again believer would be cast into the lake of fire, then delivered from there.

 

[James_Newman]

How is hell the lake of fire? Death and hell give up the dead that are in them, and themselves are cast into the lake of fire. Hell is temporary, a prison, lasting only for the duration of its use. No unbeliever goes into the lake of fire until after the millennium.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Confusing hell and the lake of fire is quite common and causes many theological problems. It is the result of Catholic teaching that came from Pagan theology that was incorporated into the church.

 

[gekko]

this is what i get from the scriptures - please correct me if im wrong.

lucifer is in hell at the moment - after he is loosed (from where?) and then he'll be bound in the lake of fire...

am i understanding this so far?

 

[J. Jump]

Satan is not currently in hell. Satan is the current ruler of this earth via a heavenly sphere above the earth.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Gekko: //this is what i get from the scriptures - please correct me if im wrong.

//lucifer is in hell at the moment - after he is loosed (from where?)
and then he'll be bound in the lake of fire...

//am i understanding this so far? //

Not only have you not gotten to first base, you turn
at bat hasn't come.

Tell me about this 'Lucifer'? Use Scripture.
If you quote scripture, tell Version, Book, Chapter, verse.
If you don't know how to look up "Lucifer" in a search
engine or Concordance, hollar.

BTW, if you are speaking of the Lead Devil (Head Deamon)
whose name is 'Satan' (AKA: Deceiver) -- if you speak of
Satan, his destiny is the eternal lake of fire.
His present location is disputed
some saying:
"He is bound, if he wasn't bound, we would be in trouble";
others (especially those who know all there is to know
about nuclear war /and the three other forms of war that can
destroy mankind/, world slavery rates, child molestation
rates, genocidal wars, etc. -- Those
folks KNOW that "Satan rages about like a roaring lion,
seeking whom he might devou".

Also remember, Satan is
mono-present (can be in only one place as one time)
compared to God who is omnipresent (existing everywhere
at the same time). So a lot of stuff that Satan gets accused
of is NOT of Satan but of human nature.

 

[gekko]

Lucifer - mentioned here "Isaiah 14:12 - How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!" - in the KJV

human nature? we do things of human nature? what about the other fallen angels? the other demons?

everyone has their demons... no? (i had to use that quote from the move "the visitation" hehe)

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by gekko:
this is what i get from the scriptures - please correct me if im wrong.

lucifer is in hell at the moment - after he is loosed (from where?) and then he'll be bound in the lake of fire...

am i understanding this so far?

No, absolutely wrong on that. The devil is not in hell. I will answer your other part about when and where satan is bound... it happens during the 1,000 year period when he has no one to tempt...


Rv:12:9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Rv:12:12: Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Job:1:7: And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

1Pt:5:8: Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by gekko:
this is what i get from the scriptures - please correct me if im wrong.

lucifer is in hell at the moment - after he is loosed (from where?) and then he'll be bound in the lake of fire...

am i understanding this so far?

No, absolutely wrong on that. The devil is not in hell. He is on earth tempting people. Remember, he was tempting Jesus in the wilderness and remember he was tempting Eve in the Garden of Eden

I will answer your other part about when and where satan is bound... it happens during the 1,000 year period when he has no one to tempt...


Rv:12:9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Rv:12:12: Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Job:1:7: And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

1Pt:5:8: Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour

 

[Ed Edwards]

Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!" - in the KJV
[/QB][/QUOTE]

Here is a CORRECT quote of the Scripture:

Isa 14:12 (KJV1611 Edition);

How art thou fallen from heauen, O Lucifer*,
sonne of the morning? how art thou cut downe to the ground,
which didst weaken the nations?

Margin note: *Or, O daystarre.

The refernce compares metaphorically the King
of Assyria to the planet Venus.
The planet Venus is seen before the sun as the
Morning Star, after the sun as the Evening Star,
and sometimes in the day time as the Day Star.

The term 'Lucifer' as a personification of Satan
is a Catholic tradition. It is bad theology to base
one's doctrine on ONE AND ONLY ONE VERSE.

This is a frequently misunderstood KJV verse.
The name of the Lead Devil is (AMONG BAPTISTS)
not 'Lucifer', his name is Satan.

Claudia_T: //No, absolutely wrong on that. The devil is not in hell. I will answer your other part about when and where satan is bound... it happens during the 1,000 year period when he has no one to tempt... //

Some say We are in the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom. They are wrong.