Who Are the Two Witnesses of Rev 11?

[James_Newman]

Matthew 17:11
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elijah truly shall first come, and restore all things.

If John the Baptist was the only fulfillment of that prophecy, then that means Jesus was wrong.

 

[Grasshopper]

It was a partial fulfillment,

But you said it was to have a double fulfillment. If John was a fulfillment of Elijah and Elijah was to come before the dreadful day of the Lord then in order to be a double fulfillment there has to be a day of the Lord associated with John. He fulfilled the other qualifications of Malachi, why not the association with the Day of the Lord? What purpose did John serve as being Elijah if he did none of the things associated with this coming Elijah?

Lets see if we can find any prophecies that had double fulfillments.

Isaiah 7
11 Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Here is the near-term partial fulfillment of Isaiah 7:14
Isaiah 8:3 And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bore a son. Then said the LORD to me, Call his name Maher-shalal-hash-baz.

but we are told that Jesus' birth was the fulfillment of that prophecy

Matthew 1:22-23
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Was the child in 8:3 that was to be the fulfillment of Is 7:14 called Emmanuel as the prophecy said?

Was the wife of a prophet who gave birth to this child a virgin as stated in 7:14?

Not sure this passage is a double fulfillment. But for arguments sake, let us say it is. Is this the exception or the rule? Can we find numerous double fulfillments in prophetic utterances or only 1 or 2? Can you find OT prophecies that had double fulfillments? Is Jesus a mere first/partial fulfillment of a yet greater Messiah? It is a slippery slope you tread on.

 

[Grasshopper]

Matthew 17:11
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elijah truly shall first come, and restore all things.

If John the Baptist was the only fulfillment of that prophecy, then that means Jesus was wrong.

Or you are wrong and misunderstand the purpose of Elijah.

 

[James_Newman]

No brother, I'm standing on solid ground.

2 Peter 1:19
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Here's another one.

2 Samuel 7:12-16
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established forever before thee: thy throne shall be established forever.

The near-term fulfillment is Solomon, but the future fulfillment is Jesus.

 

[James_Newman]

Or you are wrong and misunderstand the purpose of Elijah.

What does purpose have to do with shall being future tense? Remember, we have to take these timing indicators literally.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Grasshopper: //Where may we find this principle in scripture?//

Frequently the fulfillment of a prophecy is NOT in scripture.
So this principle isn't frequently found in scripture but
is found among those with the ability to count to TWO
or higher.

Isa 7:14 (KJV1611 Edition):
Therefore the Lord himselfe shal giue you a signe:
Behold, a Uirgine shall conceiue
and beare a Sonne,
and ||shall call his name Immanuel.

Margin note:
|| Or. thou, Oh Virgin shall call

First Fulfillment:
Isa 8:3 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I went vnto the Prophetesse,
and shee conceiued and bare a sonne,
then said the Lord to mee,
Call his name Maher-shalal-hash-baz.

Isa 8:3(KJV1769 Edition with Strong's Numbers):
And I went7126 unto413 the prophetess;5031
and she conceived,2029
and bore3205 a son.1121
Then said559 the LORD3068 to413 me,
Call7121 his name8034 Maher-shalal-hash-baz.4122

H4122
מהר שׁלל חשׁ בּז
mahêr shâlâl châsh baz
mah-hare' shaw-lawl' khawsh baz
From H4118 and H7998 and H2363 and H957;
hasting (as he (the enemy) to the) booty,
swift (to the) prey; Maher-Shalal Chash-Baz;
the symbolical name of the son of Isaiah: - Maher-shalal-hash-baz.

Grasshopper: //Was the child in 8:3 that was to be the fulfillment of Is 7:14 called Emmanuel as the prophecy said?//

So, is that close enough to "Imanuel" for you?

Grasshopper: //Was the wife of a prophet who gave birth to this child a virgin as stated in 7:14?//

Yes.

 

[Grasshopper]

What does purpose have to do with shall being future tense? Remember, we have to take these timing indicators literally.

Jesus is merely acknowledging their question concerning Malachi's prophecy, He is saying that they were right in saying Elijah shall come and shall all things. He then gives them the correct interpretation.

Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already,

Here is what Barnes says regarding their misunderstanding of Elijah:

Mat 11:14 -
If ye will receive it - This is a mode of speaking implying that the doctrine which he was about to state was different from their common views; that he was about to state something which varied from the common expectation, and which therefore they might be disposed to reject.

This is Elias ... - That is, “Elijah.” Elias is the “Greek” mode of writing the Hebrew word “Elijah.” An account of him is found in the first and second books of Kings. He was a distinguished prophet, and was taken up to heaven in a chariot of fire, 2Ki_2:11. The prophet Malachi Mal_4:5-6 predicted that “Elijah” would be sent before the coming of the Messiah to prepare the way for him. By this was evidently meant, not that he should appear “in person,” but that one should appear with a striking resemblance to him; or, as Luke Luk_1:17 expresses it, “in the spirit and power of Elijah.” But the Jews understood it differently. They supposed that Elijah would appear in person. They also supposed that Jeremiah and some other of the prophets would appear also to usher in the promised Messiah and to grace his advent. See Mat_16:14; Mat_17:10; Joh_1:21. This prevalent belief was the reason why he used the words “if ye will receive it,” implying that the affirmation that “John” was the promised Elijah was a doctrine contrary to their expectation.

 

[James_Newman]

But Jesus was not stating that the partial fulfillment erased the literal fulfillment. Elijah truly shall come. John the Baptist was not literally Elijah. He came in the spirit of Elijah. Maybe you can show some other examples of God saying things will happen when they have already occured that DON'T involve double fulfillment of prophecy.

 

[Grasshopper]

But Jesus was not stating that the partial fulfillment erased the literal fulfillment.

You are assuming John was only a partial fulfillment. Jesus says no such thing.

Elijah truly shall come.

Jesus said he did come.

John the Baptist was not literally Elijah.

Correct. The Jews expected a literal Elijah, but Jesus corrected them. Elijah was never meant to be a reincarnation of the Prophet.

He came in the spirit of Elijah.

Which is the correct meaning of Malachi 4.

Maybe you can show some other examples of God saying things will happen when they have already occured that DON'T involve double fulfillment of prophecy.

Again, Jesus wasn’t making the case that Elijah will come, He was saying that the Elijah that shall come has already come.

Since John didn't fulfill the requirements of Elijah in your view nor did the "Day of the Lord" occur in that time, then why was John called "Elijah" by Jesus? Hw was simply just the one "crying in the wilderness".

 

[James_Newman]

I think you are making some assumptions yourself. You are assuming that Elijah would not come twice. Seems a lot of people made that same mistake with the Messiah.

 

[LeBuick]

Look guys, we're all Baptist here, why don't we just appoint a comittee?

 

[Tom Butler]

I get irritated at folks who post a new thread then run off and leave it. But I've held off until I could read all your comments. And, too, I yield to all of you who are much more knowledgeable about eschatology than I will ever be.

All of you make good cases for the identity of the two witnesses.

Mel, I concede your point about the timing--their appearance in the last 3 1/2 years instead of earlier.

I was also intrigued by your idea that one of them is likely John. New to me.

I said: "From Rev. 1:20, Jesus defines a candlestick as a church. A local church, as a matter of fact."

LeBuick asked "If that is so, how does Elijah fit into the equation?"

My answer is, if that is so, I don't see how he can.

LeBuick also raised that possibility that the two witnesses represent two priesthoods, Levitical and Melchizedek. Never heard that before. Can you develop that further?

Most of you seem to start with the presupposition that the witnesses must be two individuals, and those two individuals must never have died before. I'll be happy to be enlightened, but I don't see how the text of Rev 11 demands that. And it seems to me that there has been an attempt to force that into the text.

Further, it seems that most of you have abandoned the principle that scripture interprets scripture. When Jesus defined a candlestick as a church, and Paul defines an olive tree as Israel and a wild olive branch as Gentile believers--and when John identifies the two witnesses as candlesticks and olive trees--then we really have to jump through some hoops to conclude that the witnesses are two literal individuals.

That said, I'll fall back on my oft-repeated cliche: Re: the end times, this is where I am today. I may not be there tomorrow.

 

[webdog]

Or you are wrong and misunderstand the purpose of Elijah.

...or he knows when to read something as literal compared to hyperbolic.

 

[Mel Miller]

Two Witnesses (Prophets)

Tom,

All this discussion about partial and literal fulfillment or even about "double" fulfillment is unnecessary and beside the point of prophetic interpretation with reference to the Endtime of 1260 days according to Daniel, Jesus and Revelation.

Quibbling over a choice of Jesus or Two Witnesses as the most important persons in the lives of Believers during this period is also beside the point. It needs no response because PastorSBC1303 and others misconstrue my statement about the most important “persons”. Such a response reveals a shallow depth of understanding IMO.

WHY do I say this? Because these TWO will be demonstrating the “Authority of Christ” on earth for all Believers (as well as the world) for all of the 1260 days of this time that God has chosen for the “NOW of His (Endtime) Kingdom Power” so that Believers will be prepared to “love not their life unto death” during this appointed time of “Satan’s anger and wrath”. Rev.12:10-17.

The Church has not yet recognized that Jesus spoke of this (Endtime) period as one in which “some” must be prepared to “taste death” even after the Two Prophets are killed … knowing that deliverance is coming within 3½ days for those who survive. Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7,11.

Jesus prepares these “few” who must die to complete the number required to die before the Father “avenges their blood” on the last day. Rev.6:9-11; Mark 9:1.

Tom, I am not personally concerned if these two must NOT have experienced death! SINCE being “appointed to die once” does not necessarily prevent a person from dying “twice”. But Jesus, seriously and not flippantly, allowed that John the Apostle might not die until He comes in (kingdom) power. Furthermore, the two persons in Rev.10:11 require that John “must prophesy again before many peoples, nations, tongues and kings”. No other person is as well qualified to fulfill that prophecy!

Finally, your concern about these TWO being humans is the most important part of the prophecy. The two “candlesticks and olive trees” of Zech.4:11 are counterparts to the two “candlesticks and olive trees” in Rev.11:4. They were responsible for building the 2nd Temple.

Elijah and the Apostle John, IMO, will be responsible for protecting the 144,000 Jews who will be the “Firstfruit” (not only of those who survive to the end) BUT also the “Firstfruit” of a third of the Jewish Remnant who will be “kept alive” (Zech.13:8-9; Luke 17:33; Luke 21:28,31,36) to inaugurate the worship of the Millennial Temple by the 12 Tribes as described in Ezek.40-48.

Even the descendants of the disciplined Tribe of Dan will be restored to their intended place. Ezek.48:1.

This subject of the Endtime-Reality of the “NOW Salvation and Kingdom of God and of the Authority of His Christ” through the demonstration of God’s Power for 1260 days is the least understood aspect of prophecy.

Failure by Biblical Scholars to understand Mark 9:1 was one of the prime reasons for the false doctrine we call “Preterism or Partial Preterism”.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Look guys, we're all Baptist here, why don't we just appoint a comittee?

I thought there was a Standing Committee on Committies?
Why can't THEY appoint a committie to see into this matter :wavey:

:wavey: - I like this Baptist Smilie - he only waves ONE HAND
AT A TIME and at no time does his FEET LEAVE THE GROUND

 

[Tom Butler]

Mel, thanks for your reply.

You'll notice in my posts that I have been careful not to make flat assertions, and have couched some of my views in the form of questions. As I said in an earlier post, some of the views of who the two witnesses are are brand new to me, so it would ill behoove me to plant my feet firmly on one opinion, lest I find myself looking silly.

I also appreciate the sweet spirit--and the humor--displayed in this discussion.

The committee may resume its deliberations.

 

[Mel Miller]

Two Witnesses (Prophets)

Tom,

I believe each reference to 1260 days refers to Daniel's 1290 days of the
Endtime which Daniel was so much concerned about. Dan.12:11. That is the period during which Believers "love not their life". Rev.12:11.

If that is so, then these Two would come on the world scene (from heaven) at the very time the "abomination sits in the temple" and the Antichrist claims that he is the Almighty One ... "showing himself that he is god". They are appointed to "stand against him". Rev.11:3-4.

"Some of those standing (t)here (perfect participle PP; while these two demonstrate God's kingdom power) will not taste death, by any means, until they see the Kingdom of God having already come in power (2nd PP)"
Mark 9:1. This to me clearly refers to the 1260-day Endtime.

I like to think that the PP in Rev.11:1 refers to those "worshiping in the temple" as a reference to the 1st half of Daniel's 70th Seven. This PP suggests a period of time during which they are allowed to worship. John "measured the temple and altar and those worshiping" in the 3rd temple yet to be built (from our viewpoint). Rev.11:1-2.

However, the reference to 1260 days in verse three must refer to the 2nd half of that period which will be cut short from 1290 to 1260 days. During the 2nd half Jerusalem will be "trampled under the feet of Gentiles". The outer court of the temple will be under Gentile jurisdiction even during the first half.

So the period during which "some will not taste death by any means" refers to the 2nd half ... the time which will be cut short "lest no flesh be saved". Jesus, in Mark 9:1 and Matt.16:28 has prepared, in advance, to fortify these final martyrs to stand firm in the face of certain death !!!

So I see no support for the prevalent view among Pre-Tribbers that the Two Witnesses prophesy and "stand against the AC" during the first half of Daniel's 70th Seven. (That includes the Left Behind Books). They are
trying to bolster the view that Antichrist rules the world for all 7 years.
Mel www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //So I see no support for the prevalent view among Pre-Tribbers that the Two Witnesses prophesy and "stand against the AC" during the first half of Daniel's 70th Seven. (That includes the Left Behind Books). They are
trying to bolster the view that Antichrist rules the world for all 7 years.//

The view is that the Tribulation Period is about 7-years long
(twice 1260-days, 3½-years, or 'time, times, and half a time').
During the first 3½-years the Antichrist rises to power;
he rules his Beastly Kingdom for 3½-years.

Rev 11:1-3 (KJV1611 Edition):
And there was giuen me a reede like vnto a rod, and the Angel stood,
saying, Rise, and measure the Temple of God,
and the Altar, and them that worship therein.
:2 But the Court which is without the Temple leaue out,
and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles,
and the holy citie shall they tread vnder foote fourty and two moneths.
3 And I will giue power vnto my two witnesses,
and they shall prophesie a thousand two hundred and threescore dayes
clothed in sackcloth.

As the Tribulation Temple is being built, the two Witnesses prophisie
- the first half of the Tribulation Period.

Back in '86 I was talking to a non-Messanic Jew who was
a Student Rabbi. He said when Messiah comes He will be known
by doing these three things:

1. Bringing peace to Yisrael
2. Restoring the Daily Sacrifice on Temple Mount
3. Rebuilding the Temple on Temple Mount

Note that only a clear area on Temple Mount is needed
for the daily sacrifice. The Temple is the Holy Place and
the Holy of Holies NOT the place where sacrifices are made.

Of course, I think that Antichrist (instead of Christ) will appear
to be the Christ.

As for the 'measure not', the measure is made in preperation for
building the Temple buildings at the site. There is no need to
prepare the Outer Court for that is where the Dome of the Rock
(DoR) now lies. The Temple can be built alongside the
DoR!

But I have no idea who the Two Witnesses will be raise:

 

[EdSutton]

This topic was disgusted many times in my childhood home. And the conclusion I reached at that time(even before I was saved) would be in complete agreement with StandingfirminChrist.

My alter-ego, Language Cop, suspects that "disgusted" is neither a typographical error nor a mis-spelling.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

The most important person in the lives of the believers should forever and always be Jesus Christ.

Pator, Marcia, and Lebuick- Amen and Amen!

Ed