Who Are the Two Witnesses of Rev 11?

[Mel Miller]

Two Witnesses

LeBuick,

Thanks for further insight into the relation of I Cor.15 and I Thes.4.
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I Cor 15:51 aligns and agrees with 1 Thes 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

As I understand the rapture, when Christ comes those who remain alive will be transformed at that time from mortal to immortal in order to meet Christ in the air. In Cor, when Paul says we shall not all sleep, he is saying we shall not all be asleep when Christ comes again (this agrees with 1 Thes4:17). The transformation from mortal to immortal [corruptible to incorruptible, I think Paul says of those who sleep; and mortal to immortal of those who survive; insert by Mel] is death so makes Heb 9:27 100% correct that each of us will die [may die; insert by Mel].
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May I make two observations. One, I Cor.15 agrees with I Thes.4 that the living "mortals" will be "caught up to meet the Lord in the air" at the same time, yet after, the dead (corruptible bodies who sleep in the Lord) arise.

Two, Jesus requires that both Witnesses must rise up from death on that SAME day (having repeated four times that all believers must rise up on the same last day; John 6:38,39,44,54). Not at the same time, but the same Day (and I think even within the same HOUR since, IMO, Rev.7:9 to 8:5 is immediately followed by the 7th Trumpet declaring "God's wrath has come and the appointed time" for Resurrection, Rapture and Retribution)!

Here is where I disagree so pointedly with our friend Ed Edward who separates the resurrection of the Two Witnesses from "ALL the saints" by 3 1/2 years; making their deaths occur at mid-point of the 70th Seven. I believe that less than 4 days separate the day of their deaths and the resurrection of all believers on the unknown last day.

And that is why Jesus prepares "some to taste death" even after they see the "NOW of God's kingdom power and Christ's authority" having been demonstated for 3 1/2 years (perfect participle; Mark 9:1; Rev;12:10-14)
or 1260 days which "finish the mystery of God" before the UNKNOWN few
days begin during which they must still die until the last one is killed who must be killed"! Rev.6:9-11; Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7.

Christ is crowned King of kings in the same Hour "God's wrath has come"!

Jesus has subjected Himself to His Father alone knowing when that last Martyr and Last Hour will occur ... with armies already gathered to the Armageddon before He comes as a thief! Rev.16:14-16. But we already know that up to 3 1/2 days separate the deaths of the Two Prophets from the HOUR for resurrecting ALL the Saints. Jesus limits that HOUR to what happens after men "faint from fear at the signs of His coming on the DAY that comes suddenly, as a snare on all mankind". Luke 21:25-35.

I believe the knowledge of that DAY'S events, described in 100 verses of Revelation, will bring Unity, Courage and Love to great tribulation Saints
... not just to Baptists, but even to Messianic believers who are not likely to be in the Baptist tradition. BTW, they can't even post to this thread!?
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[LeBuick]

Like I said before, as the writer of Hebrews said, all men must die, then comes the judgment. Some here have argued for John the apostle as one of the two witnesses. I reject that based on Heb. 9:27. John the apostle died a natural death at a ripe old age. The only two men in the entire Bible who did not die were Enoch and Elijah. And based on Heb. 9:27 these men must come back in order that they should taste death. To see how the Apostles died read this.

I once believed as you do until I noticed Heb 9:27 says, "once to die" instead of "must die once." Once to die can mean a minimum of once.

Also, If I'm not mistaken, they are referring to John the Baptist and not the Apostle. He came in the power and spirit of Elijah and heralded the birth of Christianity and the first comimg of Christ.

Let me stew on that Mel?

 

[Mel Miller]

Two Witnesses

DeaconDean and LeBuick,

There is no evidence that the Apostle John died. In my website article on the Apostle, I give evidence that the tradition regarding the death of John the Elder at Ephesus was mistaken for the death of the Apostle and that another tradition in the Greek and Russian Orthodox Churches claims the Apostle did not die; but that he disappeared from the site of the grave in which he instructed his followers to prepare for his burial.

They covered his body partly and later returned to find it had vanished.
But the evidence that he would not die is too strong to ignore as the
much greater legitimacy for John's return to reveal the contents of the messages of the 7 thunders and to fulfill the prophecy that John "must prophesy again in many languages before nations and peoples and kings".

Jesus Himself allowed that John may not die until He comes in Kingdom Power, i.e., when He is "about to come in glory". John 21:22; Matt.16:27-28; Mark 9:1; Rev.12:10-14. John is better qualified than Moses or Enoch to fulfill the words of Jesus as well as the voices of the Mighty Angel and one in heaven speaking in unison that he must prophesy again. Rev.10:11.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

[LeBuick]

They covered his body partly and later returned to find it had vanished.

I didn't know they burried people in the middle east???

 

[EdSutton]

DeaconDean and LeBuick,

There is no evidence that the Apostle John died. In my website article on the Apostle, I give evidence that the tradition regarding the death of John the Elder at Ephesus was mistaken for the death of the Apostle and that another tradition in the Greek and Russian Orthodox Churches claims the Apostle did not die; but that he disappeared from the site of the grave in which he instructed his followers to prepare for his burial.

They covered his body partly and later returned to find it had vanished.
But the evidence that he would not die is too strong to ignore as the
much greater legitimacy for John's return to reveal the contents of the messages of the 7 thunders and to fulfill the prophecy that John "must prophesy again in many languages before nations and peoples and kings".

Jesus Himself allowed that John may not die until He comes in Kingdom Power, i.e., when He is "about to come in glory". John 21:22; Matt.16:27-28; Mark 9:1; Rev.12:10-14. John is better qualified than Moses or Enoch to fulfill the words of Jesus as well as the voices of the Mighty Angel and one in heaven speaking in unison that he must prophesy again. Rev.10:11.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

Nor is there any authoritative (Biblical) evidence that several other apostles died either. In fact the only three individuals named as apostles we have Biblical evidence that they died are Judas, James the Great, and the Lord Jesus Christ. Sorry, this argument from silence doesn't carry all that much weight, again, the 'Orthodox' churches notwithstanding.

Ed

 

[Mel Miller]

Two Witnesses

Ed Sutton,

Quote:
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Nor is there any authoritative (Biblical) evidence that several other apostles died either. In fact the only three individuals named as apostles we have Biblical evidence that they died are Judas, James the Great, and the Lord Jesus Christ. Sorry, this argument from silence doesn't carry all that much weight, again, the 'Orthodox' churches notwithstanding.
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Much of our discussions involve what Church Fathers believed about the
deaths of the Apostle. Among thier beliefs is the report that the death of John the Elder at Ephesus was mistaken for the death of the Apostle John who lived out his final days at the Church in Ephesus.

My Biblical evidence is twofold:

One. Jesus allowed that John might not die until he sees the kingdom of God coming in power (through the two witnesses). I don't think Jesus would make such a statement unless real credibility is attached to all that He said ... even though it only became a rumor that John would not die.

I take this real credibility from Jesus teaching that, "when He is about to come in glory with the holy angels to reward believers, there are some who will not taste death until they have seen" the demonstration of that Power which, according to Revelation, immediately precedes Christ's second coming ... by less than 4 days!! Matt.16:27-28; Rev.12:10-14.

Two. To me it makes no sense for two voices, speaking in unison, to inform John that he "must prophesy again in many languages to nations and peoples and kings" after being told to "seal up the sayings of the seven messages of the seven thunders". Rev.10:4-11

John is the best qualified to deliver convincing messages about the imminent coming of the "Lamb of God" as the Messiah of Israel so that
12,000 Jews out of every tribe will know that Jesus is God as John
so convincingly revealed in John 1:1-3.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[Mel Miller]

Two Witnesses

Ed Sutton,

I feel it important to repeat a third line of Biblical evidence for John the Apostle as one of the Two Witnesses.

They are the 2 Candlesticks and 2 Olive Trees. Rev.11:4. Candlesticks represent churches and the Olive Tree represents the "people of God". In building the Temple the Olive tree represented Zerubbabel and Joshua. Each one was like the Olive tree on either side of the Lampstand in Zech.4:2,3,11. The Lampstand had seven lamps. The Olive Tree in the NT represents the ingrafted wild branches of the Gentiles into the natural Olive Tree. Rom.11:17. Both the Olive tree and Candlesticks represent the Two Witnesses. The two "peoples of God" will be joined in one Olive Tree.

In the NT the Olive Tree represents the building of the spiritual temple;
but also looks forward to the regrafting of the people of God who were mostly Jews. As Zech.4:11 represents two men annointed to "stand by the Lord of the whole earth", Rev.11:4 represents two men annointed to "stand before the God of earth" and against the Beast for 1260 days.

An important element in completing the NT church is the inclusion of
144,000 Jews as the "Firstfruit unto both God and the Lamb". Rev.14:4.
"Redeemed from earth," they will be taken to heaven to join the martyrs
out of the great tribulation in "presenting the Son of Man to the Ancient of Days" to be crowned King of kings and to be their worthy Bridegroom
just before His wedding. Dan.7:13-14; Rev.11:15-17; Rev.19:7.

Here the Two Prophets are important for they will be the two main witnesses of the evidence presented at the Court of Seal 7 and Dan.7.

"Then the Son of Man comes with all the Saints (including the 144,000 Jews protected by the two Prophets and redeemed from earth who follow the Lamb wherever He goes; Rev.14:4). He destroys the beast and gives the kingdom to the people of the saints" after the Court sits in Dan.7:22-27 (after Seal 7's Court sits in Rev.8:1-5 and the Coronation of Trumpet #7 occurs in Dan.7:14 and Rev.11:15-17).

This NT spiritual Temple (and representatives of two branches of the people of God) should have two representatives; one from the OT for the natural branches and one for the NT who represents both branches and is a Prophet. John represents the 7 Churches of Rev.2-3 which will include the 144,000 Jews. (The 7 candlesticks of Rev.1:20 for the NT people are like the 7 lamps of Zech.4:2 for the OT people).

"This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel (and to Joshua and the two Prophets, the annointed ones): "Not by might, nor by power but by My Spirit, says the Lord, Zerubbabel has laid the foundation of the house and
will finish it ... for the Lord will choose Jerusalem again" (Zech.2:12; 4:6).

And the Lord will choose Jerusalem and revive Israel a third time (after two days and on the third day; Hosea 6:2) when He raises up the Two Prophets on the last day and stands on the Mt. of Olives as KING on that Day. "Many nations will join themselves to the Lord on that Day and become My people, says the Lord of hosts". Zech.2:11; Zech.14:1-9.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

[AresMan]

General statement

I don't see why people can't think of Heb 9:27 as a general statement of principle. Once to die means once. And after this (the once) the judgment. It is appointed unto man (as a collective; but not necessitating each and every human being who has ever lived, is living, and will ever live). This statement can apply as a principle for 99.999999999999% of humanity, but God could decide to show special grace to one or two people in which these special people would never experience physical death, while a few others may experience two deaths when they were miraculously raised from the dead.

The Bible was written in vernacular language and sometimes even used figurative language and general expressions. For instance, I can say "Everyone in the USA knows who President Bush is" and this statement would be expected to be true as a general principle; however, there could be a few hermits somewhere who don't know who President Bush is because they don't know what electricity is either. The statement is no less accurate in its intended context, and if I read that statement I have absolutely no expectation that I will be an "exception" to this rule, because "everyone dies."

While the Revelation does not define who the two witnesses are, is it absolutely required to find two people in the Bible who have never died physically? I would think that if this were the case, the Bible would have been a little more clear that these two witnesses were saints of old who are currently in heaven in the flesh. I just think this is hanging too much on a particular interpretation of one verse.

 

[LadyEagle]

I believe one of the two witnesses is Elijah. In Jewish Tradition, it is believed that the prophet Elijah shall return to foretell the coming of the Jewish Messiah, (or the return of Jesus the Christ). The Elijah cup is a part of the Jewish passover table to this day. Google about the Elijah cup to read more.

 

[Mel Miller]

Two Witnesses

AresMan,

I agree with LadyEagle and in part with your quote below.

Quote:
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"I don't see why people can't think of Heb 9:27 as a general statement of principle. Once to die means once".
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Good point! The problem comes in adapting to the fact that Elijah, as one of the two expected witnesses, never died. And from a "rumor" that John might not die until Jesus is "about to come in glory". Matt.16:27-28.

My approach to the problem is fired by the statement of Jesus that John the Apostle might not die AND by two voices speaking in unison that he "must prophesy again"! John 21:22; Rev.10:11.

My conviction not only stems from these two facts but also by comparing
the Two Olive trees of Zech.4:11 and Rev.11:4 where, in each case, those who "stand before the God of the whole earth" against the forces that would destroy the Temple of God ... whether that of Zerubbabel's Temple or that of Rev.11:1-2 where John "measured the temple and the altar and the worshipers"; but left out the "outer court".

Immediately, John describes the "task of the two Witnesses to stand before the God of earth" on behalf of the 144,000 Jews and surely
on behalf of God's People world-wide! This will become a source of great
strength and encouragement for weathering the storm of great tribulation.

And there are still "some who will not taste death, by any means, until they see God's Kingdom coming in Power" through TWO who may be among those "few" WHO WILL NOT YET HAVE TASTED DEATH. Even John could end up being one of the 12 Apostles who should die for their faith. In that case, it would not just be a "rumor" that he might not die until
Jesus is "about to come in glory". Matt.16:27-28.

Their corpses would be among those few "who must still taste death after they finish their task before God in the days when chronos-time is no longer" subject to a known countdown and the "mystery of God was finished in the days whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound".

It is significant to me that the Mystery of God and the Death of the Two Prophets coincide with finishing their task with the 7th Trumpet about to
trumpet that "God's wrath has come and the appointed time" for the
Resurrection (judging the dead), Rapture (rewarding the saints) and the Retribution (destroying the destroyers of earth"). Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7.

Please note that they finish their task in anticipation of the UNKNOWN day
upon which Christ will be "crowned King" and comes with all the Saints to take vengeance on the Beast and to deliver those who beg for mercy from the very scene of God's wrath upon the armies of 200 million!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

[EdSutton]

Mel writes:

And there are still "some who will not taste death, by any means, until they see God's Kingdom coming in Power" through TWO who may be among those "few" WHO WILL NOT YET HAVE TASTED DEATH. Even John could end up being one of the 12 Apostles who should die for their faith. In that case, it would not just be a "rumor" that he might not die until
Jesus is "about to come in glory". Matt.16:27-28.

Since this was spoken just before ("some") the appearance at the "Mount of Transfiguration" event, and since James DID die at the hand of Herod, what about Peter? Discount 'church tradition' and stay with Scripture, here. Any evidence he died?

Ed

 

[Mel Miller]

Mel writes:


Since this was spoken just before ("some") the appearance at the "Mount of Transfiguration" event, and since James DID die at the hand of Herod, what about Peter? Discount 'church tradition' and stay with Scripture, here. Any evidence he died?

Ed

Jesus made it clear to any one who does not take up his cross and is not willing to die for Him is unworthy and will be "shamed at His Presence".
I don't really care to debate whether we should ignore tradition about
those who were martyrs. It is clear that the Two Witnesses will be among
the "few who must not taste death until the Mystery of God was finished".

Thanks anyway. Food for thought. But I do not believe the "some who must NOT taste death, by any means, until Jesus is about to come" was in any way fulfilled within "8 days" or even in eight decades!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

[AresMan]

I believe one of the two witnesses is Elijah. In Jewish Tradition, it is believed that the prophet Elijah shall return to foretell the coming of the Jewish Messiah, (or the return of Jesus the Christ). The Elijah cup is a part of the Jewish passover table to this day. Google about the Elijah cup to read more.

And that tradition is correct. "Elijah" did foretell of the coming of the Jewish Messiah. Jesus alluded to this:

Matt 17:10-13 (KJV 1611)
Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the Scribes that Elias must first come? [Because this is what the Scriptures foretold (Mal 4:5)
Mat 17:11 And Iesus answered, and said vnto them, Elias truely shall first come, and restore all things: [Because this is what the Scriptures foretold]
Mat 17:12 But I say vnto you, that Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but haue done vnto him whatsoeuer they listed: Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. [So, "Elijah" comes before the Son of man suffers]
Mat 17:13 Then the Disciples vnderstood that he spake vnto them of Iohn the Baptist. [John the Baptist was the "Elijah" of Malachi 4:5]

As pertaining to Jesus' statement to His disciples:

Matt 16:27-28 (KJV 1611)
27 For the sonne of man shall come in the glory of his father, with his Angels: and then he shall reward euery man according to his works.
28 Uerely I say vnto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Sonne of man comming in his Kingdome.

This could be a reference to Peter, James, and John who would see Jesus at the Transfiguration and/or John the Apostle who would see Jesus in his vision of the Apocalypse. None of them had tasted death before they saw those things.

My approach to the problem is fired by the statement of Jesus that John the Apostle might not die AND by two voices speaking in unison that he "must prophesy again"! John 21:22; Rev.10:11.

You are referencing John 21:21-24:

(KJV 1611)
21 Peter seeing him, saith to Iesus, Lord, and what shall this man doe? 22 Iesus saith vnto him, If I will that he tary till I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me.
23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that Disciple should not die: yet Iesus sayd not vnto him, He shall not die: but, If I will that he tary till I come, what is that to thee?
24 This is the Disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things, and we know that his testimonie is true.

Jesus could have been referring again to the vision of the Apocalypse. John did tarry until Jesus came.

Rev 10:10-11 (KJV 1611)
10 And I tooke the little booke out of the Angels hand, and ate it vp, and it was in my mouth sweet as honie: and as soone as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
11 And he sayd vnto me, Thou must prophesie againe before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Maybe the written account of Revelation is John prophesying again?

I still don't see where the two witnesses have to be two people who were translated and never died so that they could face death.

 

[Mel Miller]

Matthew 17:11
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elijah truly shall first come, and restore all things.

If John the Baptist was the only fulfillment of that prophecy, then that means Jesus was wrong.

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Thank you James. That is a correct reading although some might try to
challenge you by changing it to: "Elijah IS coming and SHALL restore all
things". It was the scribes who taught that "Elijah must come first" and that created a dilemma for three of the disciples.

In any case, you understand that, by stating Elijah was the Baptist,
Jesus meant only that it was ok to consider that he fulfilled Elijah's role
with respect to being the Messenger of the Lord at His first coming.

Jesus needed to "accommodate" His words to their understanding of Malachi ... because the Disciples wondered, that if Jesus must die and the day of the Lord has not come, WHY did the Scribes teach that Elijah "must come first"? They did not know the Day of the Lord was still in the
future.

Mel :wavey:

 

[Mel Miller]

Two Witnesses

Friends,

John the Apostle, having witnessed the Transfiguration and knowing that he must prophesy again in many tongues, should be the best one qualified to deliver the final messages to God's people to be faithful unto death ... including that of his own death! Rev.10:11.

In order for Prophetic Time to be FINISHED, armies must already be crossing the Euphrates (6th Trumpet) and be gathering to the Armageddon plain (6th Plague). This is
the context in which “Blessed is the one watching” as Jesus is “coming suddenly as a thief and none of those who dwell on all the face of all the earth will escape” unless they are “willing to die and keep begging for mercy”. Luke 21:34-36; Luke 17:33.

God’s Mystery ends in the days when the Last Trump is about to sound and the Two Prophets FINISH their task" and in 3 days rise up on the Last Day. Rev.10:7; 11:7.

The Plagues “FINISH” God's patience in allowing men to “repent” before John sees the Great and Wonderful Sign in heaven that His deeds were righteous. Rev.15:1,4. The Martyrs (including Elijah and John) and 144,000 Jews “stand before God to sing the songs of Moses & the Lamb”. Rev.14:2-4; Rev.15:2-4.

The 7th Trumpet sounds after "time is no longer and God's mystery was finished". It sounds after the 6th
and 7th Seals open and while armies of the 6th Trumpet and 6th Plague are in place for total destruction! To
count on this is to know the secret of God's mystery.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey: