Who are those ALL God has Mercy On ?

[Don]

don



The evidence is self evident, does it say in 2 Pet 2:1 that they wre bought with the blood of Chrst ? Yes or No ?

The evidence is not self-evident. The verse says they were bought by the Lord. Peter wrote both 1 Peter and 2 Peter; in 1 Peter 1:19, Peter clearly proclaims that it is the blood of Christ. In 1 Peter 4:1, he writes that Christ suffered for us in the flesh, again referring to paying the price with His blood. Would you have us believe that the same Peter who wrote those things, somehow then changes his mind in his second letter and doesn't mean Christ's blood when he mentions those that were bought?

Let me help you out, since you obviously don't understand: The price was paid with Christ's blood, but that doesn't mean they will see heaven. These ones Peter speaks of, he goes on to further explain later in the same chapter. He refers to them as those that have heard the Word, know of the Lord's sacrifice and shed blood to pay for our sins, but stay with or return to their ways; and therefore, like a dog returning to its vomit, have no place.

I rebuke and exhort you, sir. Because you are unable to support such simple doctrinal points, you have no business writing the things you do on this board. You have no business attempting to try to teach others, when you plainly cannot understand yourself. Re-read 1 Peter 3:15 and understand: If you're going to attempt to teach others, always be ready with an answer. Because you are not Christ, because you're a fallible human being just like the rest of us, you *MUST* answer the questions put to you, and stop resorting to the unlearned "review my points," especially when those points are being reviewed with you. Otherwise, you are in grave danger of leading others astray - and that, my friend, is *exactly* the kind of people Peter talks about in 2 Peter 2.

 

[savedbymercy]

don

The evidence is not self-evident.

Yes it is. Show me where in the verse it states " They were bought with the blood of Christ !

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I am neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian but I disagree with your premise here. I am understanding that your premise here is that this verse suggests that if one is bought then one is automatically a sheep. Whether that is true or not is another discussion but the verses you have listed here do not suggest nor support that premise.
What you forget here is that Jesus made very clear in Matthew 15:24 that He was sent sent "only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Jesus first mission was to Israel which is even a common theme from the writings of Paul. Such was the mission Jesus spoke of in John 6. When we look into the gospels we must needs be careful to differentiate between Christ's ministry to the Jews first then to the Gentiles. Those who He did not lose are those of the house of Israel.

Thank you for your comment, but I'm afraid I can't quite agree with it.
That our Lord spent His entire earthly ministry in Israel is quite true, but even in the Matt. 15 text you offer. the Caananite woman recognizes Him as 'Son of David' and 'Lord' and is told ''Great is your faith.' Are you suggesting that she was not saved? 'For so God loved the world that He have His only begotten Son.....' Whatever you construe the 'world' to mean, it surely means more than 1st Century Israel. Our Lord declared, "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself" (John 10:32, NKJV). Now the meaning of 'all' is the subject of the O.P., but here it surely can't mean all the people in the world without exception, since all people are not drawn to Christ. It means all manner of people, people of all nations. Therefore to limit Christ's sheep to Israelites seems to me to be quite mistaken.
[Note to Mods. We have strayed from Calvinism onto Dispensationalism. My apologies. Delete this if it is too far off topic]

 

[Don]

don



Yes it is. Show me where in the verse it states " They were bought with the blood of Christ !

In the parts of my message that you chose not to quote, I did. You have just further substantiated what I wrote in the final paragraph.

 

[Revmitchell]

Thank you for your comment, but I'm afraid I can't quite agree with it.
That our Lord spent His entire earthly ministry in Israel is quite true, but even in the Matt. 15 text you offer. the Caananite woman recognizes Him as 'Son of David' and 'Lord' and is told ''Great is your faith.' Are you suggesting that she was not saved? 'For so God loved the world that He have His only begotten Son.....' Whatever you construe the 'world' to mean, it surely means more than 1st Century Israel. Our Lord declared, "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself" (John 10:32, NKJV). Now the meaning of 'all' is the subject of the O.P., but here it surely can't mean all the people in the world without exception, since all people are not drawn to Christ. It means all manner of people, people of all nations. Therefore to limit Christ's sheep to Israelites seems to me to be quite mistaken.
[Note to Mods. We have strayed from Calvinism onto Dispensationalism. My apologies. Delete this if it is too far off topic]

Jesus rebutted the Gentile woman and said His ministry was to the House of Israel. The all was a reference to them. All people are drawn to Christ as is described even in Romans 1. However, Christ's sheep being limited to the house of Israel is not a commentary on the rest of the world.

Jesus said "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

When Jesus sent out His disciples for the first time He sent them to Israel only, "but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Paul talked about the very same thing when he said "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." Romans 1:16

Just because Jesus was talking specifically about the Jews at the time does not negate the gospel for the Gentiles. It is the context of the passage you mentioned that Jesus was only addressing the Jews.

 

[Van]

I think that Reformed folk need to admit that 2 Peter 2:1b is a difficult text, that it is legitimate for Arminians to bring it up and that it needs careful consideration.

If we are to understand the text correctly we need to compare Scripture with Scripture, for I'm sure we all agree that the only infallible interpreter of Scripture is the Holy Spirit speaking through Scripture.

In John 6:39. our Lord tells us, "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day" (NKJV). So the Father has given to the Son a people to 'buy back' or redeem (cf. also Matt. 11:25-27; John 6:37; 17:2, 6), and of these people He will lose none. You find the same thing in John 10. Christ's sheep will never perish and no-one will snatch them out of His hands. It's also important to note verse 26, where our Lord says to the Pharisees, "You do not believe because you are not of My sheep." So one does not become a sheep by believing and then morph into a goat if one falls away; one believes because one is of Christ's flock.

So how shall we reconcile these verses with 2 Peter 2:1b? Well, we notice that at one time these false teachers professed the name of Christ, for they claimed to know Him and the way of righteousness (vs. 20-21). Therefore at one time they were claiming to be blood-bought believers, but now they are denying the very one who bought back believers with His blood. They are the people spoken of in John 2:19. 'They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us they would have continued with us.' They are not of Christ's sheep and therefore He did not lay down His life for them, and one day they will hear Him say, "I never knew you!" Not, "I knew you once and then forgot about you!"

So what Peter is saying is that these false teachers at one time claimed to be orthodox Christians and therefore bought by the blood of Christ, but now they are revealed as apostates and their denial of Him shows that they are not redeemed.

Nice to see a reasonable defense, flawed in my opinion, but at least an effort to defend an alternate view of 2 Peter 2:1.

But first things first, lets consider John 6:39. You view is that Jesus is speaking of everyone, past, present, and future, as having been given to Christ in the past. But equally viable is the idea Jesus is saying whoever God gives to Christ, Christ will lose none. This would apply to anyone given to Christ, whether in the past, present or future. Notice John 17:21, where Jesus speaks of future believers, that they may be in Us. Thus future believers had not yet been given to Christ, for all given (John 6:37) arrive in Christ.

So Christ "bought" the whole world, those saved or will be saved, and those lost and heading for destruction.

Next, lets consider the idea that the false teachers had claimed they had been bought but now deny they had been bought. First, not how it reads. They secretly introduced destructive heresies, thus were still claiming to be siblings, yet denying Christ who bought them. They were not denying the purchase, they were denying Christ. Thus the way of the truth will be maligned.

Lastly, "of My Sheep" refers to anyone who is open to the gospel, who is willing to believe God. They are the "fields white for harvest." They are not His sheep, but could be. They are the kind of person who might choose to believe wholeheartedly.

Bottom line, Christ bought those saved or will be saved, and those lost and heading for destruction. He became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world.

 

[savedbymercy]

Nice to see a reasonable defense, flawed in my opinion, but at least an effort to defend an alternate view of 2 Peter 2:1.

But first things first, lets consider John 6:39. You view is that Jesus is speaking of everyone, past, present, and future, as having been given to Christ in the past. But equally viable is the idea Jesus is saying whoever God gives to Christ, Christ will lose none. This would apply to anyone given to Christ, whether in the past, present or future. Notice John 17:21, where Jesus speaks of future believers, that they may be in Us. Thus future believers had not yet been given to Christ, for all given (John 6:37) arrive in Christ.

So Christ "bought" the whole world, those saved or will be saved, and those lost and heading for destruction.

Next, lets consider the idea that the false teachers had claimed they had been bought but now deny they had been bought. First, not how it reads. They secretly introduced destructive heresies, thus were still claiming to be siblings, yet denying Christ who bought them. They were not denying the purchase, they were denying Christ. Thus the way of the truth will be maligned.

Lastly, "of My Sheep" refers to anyone who is open to the gospel, who is willing to believe God. They are the "fields white for harvest." They are not His sheep, but could be. They are the kind of person who might choose to believe wholeheartedly.

Bottom line, Christ bought those saved or will be saved, and those lost and heading for destruction. He became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world.

Does 2 Peter 2:1 state that Christ bought them with His Blood?Yes or No?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Jesus rebutted the Gentile woman and said His ministry was to the House of Israel. The all was a reference to them. All people are drawn to Christ as is described even in Romans 1. However, Christ's sheep being limited to the house of Israel is not a commentary on the rest of the world.

Jesus said "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

When Jesus sent out His disciples for the first time He sent them to Israel only, "but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Paul talked about the very same thing when he said "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." Romans 1:16

Just because Jesus was talking specifically about the Jews at the time does not negate the gospel for the Gentiles. It is the context of the passage you mentioned that Jesus was only addressing the Jews.

Our Lord's whole ministry on earth was spent in Israel, speaking almost entirely to Jews. That is not at issue. The question is whether His 'sheep' as described in John 10 are solely Jews. I hardly think they can be, because in v.16 He speaks of sheep from another fold which can only mean the gentiles. He will bring these in and there will be 'one flock and one shepherd. Believing Jews and gentiles, sheep together in the same flock.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Nice to see a reasonable defense, flawed in my opinion, but at least an effort to defend an alternate view of 2 Peter 2:1.

Thank you for your kind(ish) words. I look forward to an interesting and edifying discussion.

But first things first, lets consider John 6:39. Your view is that Jesus is speaking of everyone, past, present, and future, as having been given to Christ in the past. But equally viable is the idea Jesus is saying whoever God gives to Christ, Christ will lose none. This would apply to anyone given to Christ, whether in the past, present or future. Notice John 17:21, where Jesus speaks of future believers, that they may be in Us. Thus future believers had not yet been given to Christ, for all given (John 6:37) arrive in Christ.

Your interpretation seems very forced, and also not in line with other portions of Scripture. In the O.T., God tells Jeremiah, 'Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love. Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you' (Jer. 31:3). In the O.T. we read that God 'chose us in [Christ] before the foundation of the world........having predestined us to adoption as sons' (Eph. 1:4-5. cf. also Titus 1:2; 1 Peter 1:2). We were chosen by God in eternity, given to the Son to redeem and sanctified by the Spirit. Wonderful!

When we look at John 17:21, we see that it is a prayer for unity, not for salvation. "That they [believers. See v.20]all may be one, as you, Father are in Me, and I in You; that they may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.'

So Christ "bought" the whole world, those saved or will be saved, and those lost and heading for destruction.

I find that quite unacceptable, both for the reasons given above, and also for the glory of the Lord Jesus. We read, 'He shall see the labour of His soul and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities' (Isaiah 53:11). Our Lord will be satisfied because all those whose iniquities He has borne will be justified. How could He be satisfied if many of those for whom He died were not saved?

Next, lets consider the idea that the false teachers had claimed they had been bought but now deny they had been bought. First, not how it reads. They secretly introduced destructive heresies, thus were still claiming to be siblings, yet denying Christ who bought them. They were not denying the purchase, they were denying Christ. Thus the way of the truth will be maligned.

That is not how I read the text. These false teachers had entered secretly into the church. They must therefore have made a declaration of faith in Christ at some point. They bought destructive heresies with them, and now they are denying Christ whom previously they had said was their Saviour. I could point you to half a dozen bishops of the Church of England who have done this very thing.

Lastly, "of My Sheep" refers to anyone who is open to the gospel, who is willing to believe God. They are the "fields white for harvest." They are not His sheep, but could be. They are the kind of person who might choose to believe wholeheartedly.

How then can the Lord Jesus say, "I know My sheep and am known by My own" (v.14)? Christ's sheep are a special breed. They are distinguished by their ears and their feet. They hear the shepherds voice and they follow Him (v.27). They do not follow a stranger (v.5). It is these same sheep to whom our Lord gives eternal life, and whom no one is able to snatch out of His hand. You are quite mistaken.

 

[Van]

Your interpretation seems very forced, and also not in line with other portions of Scripture.

Not surprisingly, that is how I view your position.

In the O.T., God tells Jeremiah, 'Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love. Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you' (Jer. 31:3).

Seems like a non-germane observation, we agree God draws people with lovingkindness, such as Christ dying for us. But this reference does not demonstrate Jeremiah was given to Christ before creation.

In the [N.T.] we read that God 'chose us in [Christ] before the foundation of the world........having predestined us to adoption as sons' (Eph. 1:4-5. cf. also Titus 1:2; 1 Peter 1:2). We were chosen by God in eternity, given to the Son to redeem and sanctified by the Spirit. Wonderful!

None of those references say we as individuals were "given" to Christ before creation. We were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, but that refers to a corporate election. We were chosen individually through faith in the truth during our lifetime, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Titus 1:2 says God promised ages ago eternal life to those chosen by God. It does not say everyone was chosen ages ago. 1 Peter 1:2 says we are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God, or in other words according to God's plan of redemption. It, too, does not say when we were chosen individually, and thus is consistent with being chosen individually during our lifetime.

When we look at John 17:21, we see that it is a prayer for unity, not for salvation. "That they [believers. See v.20]all may be one, as you, Father are in Me, and I in You; that they may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.'

This clearly indicates that future believers are not yet in Christ, thus precluding your view that they were given to Christ before the foundation of the world.

I find that quite unacceptable, both for the reasons given above, and also for the glory of the Lord Jesus. We read, 'He shall see the labour of His soul and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities' (Isaiah 53:11). Our Lord will be satisfied because all those whose iniquities He has borne will be justified. How could He be satisfied if many of those for whom He died were not saved?

Here I must say, what we have here is a failure to communicate. Jesus completed His mission successfully, Jesus became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, those saved or to be saved, and those lost and heading for destruction. But that is not all. Every individual God gives to Christ, who is baptized into Christ, undergoes the washing of regeneration or rebirth, undergoes the circumcision of Christ and arises in Christ a new creation, with their sin burden removed. From my side of the street, my view is consistent with all scripture, whereas your view does not mesh with many scriptures, including 2 Peter 2:1.

These false teachers had entered secretly into the church. They must therefore have made a declaration of faith in Christ at some point. They bought destructive heresies with them, and now they are denying Christ whom previously they had said was their Saviour. I could point you to half a dozen bishops of the Church of England who have done this very thing.

Again, not how it reads. The false teachers secretly introduced destructive heresies, but scripture does not say they entered secretly into the church.

We could speculate on whether or not the false teachers had professed Christ, but we should stick to what scripture actually says. Scripture does not say they had claimed to have been bought but now are saying they were not bought. Rather, it says they were denying the Master who bought them. It is a description of Christ, and teaches Christ not only bought those saved or to be saved, but also those lost and heading for destruction.

How then can the Lord Jesus say, "I know My sheep and am known by My own" (v.14)? Christ's sheep are a special breed. They are distinguished by their ears and their feet. They hear the shepherds voice and they follow Him (v.27). They do not follow a stranger (v.5). It is these same sheep to whom our Lord gives eternal life, and whom no one is able to snatch out of His hand. You are quite mistaken.

Well, one of us is quite mistaken. You are conflating "of My sheep" with "My sheep" as if they were the same group. Not so. Your description is of "My sheep" those given to Christ, and thus known by Christ and know Christ. They are "in Us."

In summary, scripture indicates future believers are not yet "in Christ" contrary to your view. Secondly, since we are chosen individually through faith in the truth, we were not chosen individually unconditionally.

 

[savedbymercy]

Not surprisingly, that is how I view your position.

Seems like a non-germane observation, we agree God draws people with lovingkindness, such as Christ dying for us. But this reference does not demonstrate Jeremiah was given to Christ before creation.

None of those references say we as individuals were "given" to Christ before creation. We were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, but that refers to a corporate election. We were chosen individually through faith in the truth during our lifetime, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Titus 1:2 says God promised ages ago eternal life to those chosen by God. It does not say everyone was chosen ages ago. 1 Peter 1:2 says we are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God, or in other words according to God's plan of redemption. It, too, does not say when we were chosen individually, and thus is consistent with being chosen individually during our lifetime.

This clearly indicates that future believers are not yet in Christ, thus precluding your view that they were given to Christ before the foundation of the world.

Here I must say, what we have here is a failure to communicate. Jesus completed His mission successfully, Jesus became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, those saved or to be saved, and those lost and heading for destruction. But that is not all. Every individual God gives to Christ, who is baptized into Christ, undergoes the washing of regeneration or rebirth, undergoes the circumcision of Christ and arises in Christ a new creation, with their sin burden removed. From my side of the street, my view is consistent with all scripture, whereas your view does not mesh with many scriptures, including 2 Peter 2:1.

Again, not how it reads. The false teachers secretly introduced destructive heresies, but scripture does not say they entered secretly into the church.

We could speculate on whether or not the false teachers had professed Christ, but we should stick to what scripture actually says. Scripture does not say they had claimed to have been bought but now are saying they were not bought. Rather, it says they were denying the Master who bought them. It is a description of Christ, and teaches Christ not only bought those saved or to be saved, but also those lost and heading for destruction.

Well, one of us is quite mistaken. You are conflating "of My sheep" with "My sheep" as if they were the same group. Not so. Your description is of "My sheep" those given to Christ, and thus known by Christ and know Christ. They are "in Us."

In summary, scripture indicates future believers are not yet "in Christ" contrary to your view. Secondly, since we are chosen individually through faith in the truth, we were not chosen individually unconditionally.

All invalid comments!

 

[savedbymercy]

Not surprisingly, that is how I view your position.

Seems like a non-germane observation, we agree God draws people with lovingkindness, such as Christ dying for us. But this reference does not demonstrate Jeremiah was given to Christ before creation.

None of those references say we as individuals were "given" to Christ before creation. We were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, but that refers to a corporate election. We were chosen individually through faith in the truth during our lifetime, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Titus 1:2 says God promised ages ago eternal life to those chosen by God. It does not say everyone was chosen ages ago. 1 Peter 1:2 says we are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God, or in other words according to God's plan of redemption. It, too, does not say when we were chosen individually, and thus is consistent with being chosen individually during our lifetime.

This clearly indicates that future believers are not yet in Christ, thus precluding your view that they were given to Christ before the foundation of the world.

Here I must say, what we have here is a failure to communicate. Jesus completed His mission successfully, Jesus became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, those saved or to be saved, and those lost and heading for destruction. But that is not all. Every individual God gives to Christ, who is baptized into Christ, undergoes the washing of regeneration or rebirth, undergoes the circumcision of Christ and arises in Christ a new creation, with their sin burden removed. From my side of the street, my view is consistent with all scripture, whereas your view does not mesh with many scriptures, including 2 Peter 2:1.

Again, not how it reads. The false teachers secretly introduced destructive heresies, but scripture does not say they entered secretly into the church.

We could speculate on whether or not the false teachers had professed Christ, but we should stick to what scripture actually says. Scripture does not say they had claimed to have been bought but now are saying they were not bought. Rather, it says they were denying the Master who bought them. It is a description of Christ, and teaches Christ not only bought those saved or to be saved, but also those lost and heading for destruction.

Well, one of us is quite mistaken. You are conflating "of My sheep" with "My sheep" as if they were the same group. Not so. Your description is of "My sheep" those given to Christ, and thus known by Christ and know Christ. They are "in Us."

In summary, scripture indicates future believers are not yet "in Christ" contrary to your view. Secondly, since we are chosen individually through faith in the truth, we were not chosen individually unconditionally.

Scripture doesn't actually say they were bought with the blood of Christ in 2Peter 2:1 ! So how are you sticking with what scriptures actually says? You don't even practice what you preach!

 

[tyndale1946]

Does it say that they were bought by the blood of Christ in 2Peter 2:1?Yes or No?

No?.. In the context of this scripture they are denying that it was the people who were bought with the blood of Christ... That is the them!... False teachers and false prophets never deny they are God personal chosen!... Brother Glen

 

[Martin Marprelate]

In the O.T., God tells Jeremiah, 'Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love. Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you' (Jer. 31:3).

Seems like a non-germane observation, we agree God draws people with lovingkindness, such as Christ dying for us. But this reference does not demonstrate Jeremiah was given to Christ before creation.

Well, the clue is in the words 'everlasting love.' But if that doesn't satisfy you, then try 1:5.

In the [N.T.] we read that God 'chose us in [Christ] before the foundation of the world........having predestined us to adoption as sons' (Eph. 1:4-5. cf. also Titus 1:2; 1 Peter 1:2). We were chosen by God in eternity, given to the Son to redeem and sanctified by the Spirit. Wonderful!

None of those references say we as individuals were "given" to Christ before creation. We were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, but that refers to a corporate election. We were chosen individually through faith in the truth during our lifetime, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Titus 1:2 says God promised ages ago eternal life to those chosen by God. It does not say everyone was chosen ages ago. 1 Peter 1:2 says we are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God, or in other words according to God's plan of redemption. It, too, does not say when we were chosen individually, and thus is consistent with being chosen individually during our lifetime.

Golly! Let me ask you, Van, is there any wording that the Holy Spirit could have used that would have convinced you? Eph. 1:4-5 seems remarkably clear to me. Paul does not say that God chose 'people' before the foundation of the world. He chose 'us.' Who is 'us'? Christians! You and me! 'The saints who are in Ephesus and faithful in Christ Jesus' (v.1). We were seen by God in eternity, in all our fallenness and sin, and He set His love upon us. God says, 'I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy.....'. This is not corporate but individual. 'I will take you, one from a city and two from a family and bring you to Zion' (Jer. 3:14).

This clearly indicates that future believers are not yet in Christ, thus precluding your view that they were given to Christ before the foundation of the world.

You are confusing Calvin with his evil younger brother, Hyper-calvin. The elect are given to Christ in eternity, but they are not 'in Christ' until they are justified by faith.

Here I must say, what we have here is a failure to communicate. Jesus completed His mission successfully, Jesus became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, those saved or to be saved, and those lost and heading for destruction. But that is not all. Every individual God gives to Christ, who is baptized into Christ, undergoes the washing of regeneration or rebirth, undergoes the circumcision of Christ and arises in Christ a new creation, with their sin burden removed. From my side of the street, my view is consistent with all scripture, whereas your view does not mesh with many scriptures, including 2 Peter 2:1.

Well, if the Lord Jesus has shed His blood for a load of people who will not repent or believe in Him, then that does not sound much like success to me. Christ laid down His life for the sheep (John 10:15). The sheep hear His voice and follow Him (v.27). Those who do not hear His voice are not His sheep (v.26). I can't think of anything more clear or more simple.

Again, not how it reads. The false teachers secretly introduced destructive heresies, but scripture does not say they entered secretly into the church.

If there is any doubt of this, Jude 4 makes it clear.

We could speculate on whether or not the false teachers had professed Christ, but we should stick to what scripture actually says. Scripture does not say they had claimed to have been bought but now are saying they were not bought. Rather, it says they were denying the Master who bought them. It is a description of Christ, and teaches Christ not only bought those saved or to be saved, but also those lost and heading for destruction.

If it is a description of Christ then it is the only time in the Bible that the word despotes is clearly used of Him (Jude 4 is somewhat debateable). Invariably He is referred to as kyrios. Also, it appears from vs. 19-21 that these men were claiming to know Christ and the way of righteousness. Now (v.1), they are denying the One whom they claimed had bought them.

Well, one of us is quite mistaken. You are conflating "of My sheep" with "My sheep" as if they were the same group.

Well, not to do so seems to me to be more than special pleading. It is taking a chestnut horse and claiming it to be a horse chestnut. There is one flock and one Shepherd' (John 10:16 and even more clearly, Eph. 2:14-22).

In summary, scripture indicates future believers are not yet "in Christ" contrary to your view. Secondly, since we are chosen individually through faith in the truth, we were not chosen individually unconditionally.

Future believers are 'chosen in Christ' before the foundation of the world and predestined to adoption as sons (Eph. 1:4-5). They are not actually 'in Christ' until they believe and are justified (cf. Rom. 16:7). However, since the very faith with which we believe is a gift of God (Eph. 2:8), and since Christ will not lose even one of those whom the Father has given Him (John 6:37, 39), every one of those for whom Christ died will be saved.

I think we have now done this to death. Unless you have anything new and substantial to add, I have finished here. My experience is that folk never change their minds on these forums, but perhaps those reading this will be helped in some way. I am glad to see that you are a classic Arminian and not a semi-Pelagian. Thank you for a stimulating discussion. :thumbs:

 

[BrotherJoseph]

You are confusing Calvin with his evil younger brother, Hyper-calvin. The elect are given to Christ in eternity, but they are not 'in Christ' until they are justified by faith.

Brother Martin,

You are incorrect, scripture teaches the elect were "in Christ" in eternity. "...according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, ( 2 Timothy 1:9)

Brother Joe

 

[savedbymercy]

mm

The elect are given to Christ in eternity, but they are not 'in Christ' until they are justified by faith.

What scripture says this ?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

mm



What scripture says this ?

Brother Saved,

We both know the answer-none!

 

[tyndale1946]

Brother Saved,

We both know the answer-none!

A Primitive Baptist favorite!

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us... Brother Glen

 

[Van]

Well, the clue is in the words 'everlasting love.' But if that doesn't satisfy you, then try 1:5.

I assume your "1:5" refers to Ephesians. But that verse does not say or suggest we were given to Christ individually before the foundation of the world. It says God formulated a plan of redemption which includes our adoption, our bodily redemption (Romans 8:23.) at Christ's second coming. You take a term like everlasting love, and then redefine it to mean given individually to Christ. If the Holy Spirit had intended to say that, He would have used different words.

Golly! Let me ask you, Van, is there any wording that the Holy Spirit could have used that would have convinced you?

Yes, I am convinced by the words He actually used.

Eph. 1:4-5 seems remarkably clear to me. Paul does not say that God chose 'people' before the foundation of the world. He chose 'us.' Who is 'us'? Christians! You and me! 'The saints who are in Ephesus and faithful in Christ Jesus' (v.1).

You have no answer for the words "in Him" but my view is Christ was chosen to be the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:19-20) and when God chose Christ as Redeemer, He chose corporately all those His Redeemer would redeem.

We were seen by God in eternity, in all our fallenness and sin, and He set His love upon us. God says, 'I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy.....'. This is not corporate but individual. 'I will take you, one from a city and two from a family and bring you to Zion' (Jer. 3:14).

Again, I say the election of Ephesians 1:5 is corporate, the individual election of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is individual. Therefore all these verses are perfectly consistent with the biblical view. Each individual God places in Christ (gives to Christ) is chosen individually through faith in the truth as determined by God. (Romans 4)

You are confusing Calvin with his evil younger brother, Hyper-calvin. The elect are given to Christ in eternity, but they are not 'in Christ' until they are justified by faith.

John 6:37 says those given to Christ arrive in Christ. In order not to be cast out, they must be in Christ! It is a lock. And since future believers are not yet in Christ, your view of Ephesians 1:5 is shown to be mistaken.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

None of those references say we as individuals were "given" to Christ before creation. We were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, but that refers to a corporate election. ... This clearly indicates that future believers are not yet in Christ, thus precluding your view that they were given to Christ before the foundation of the world.

Brother Van,

2 Timothy 1:9 clearly states the elect must have been "in Christ" before the world began, "...his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

It says "us" and the "us" were "in Christ Jesus" and at that time received both purpose and grace before the creation of the world. You cannot give both mercy and purpose to nonexistent creatures, nor can nonexistent creatures be "in Christ Jesus", therefore the elect were "in Christ" in seed form before the world began. In similar manner, Adam, who was a type of Christ, had his wife Eve in his rib, before she was even made human (created), likewise Christ's wife, the church, was in Christ in seed form before they were created human beings. This is called the doctrine of eternal vital union.