Who are those ALL God has Mercy On ?

[Martin Marprelate]

Brother Martin,

You are incorrect, scripture teaches the elect were "in Christ" in eternity. "...according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, ( 2 Timothy 1:9)

Brother Joe

Hello Bro Joe,
I can't spend much time right now because I'm going out. May I just refer you to the text I quoted to Van? Romans 16:7. 'Greet Andronicus and Junia........who also were in Christ before I was.' How can that be if we were all in Christ from eternity?
There's no question that all those to whom grace was given in Christ in eternity will be in Christ, but we are not actually ourselves in Christ until we believe. It's like that bike your parents bought you for your birthday. They've bought it; you're going to get it, but you don't actually receive it until the day.

 

[savedbymercy]

van

You have no answer for the words "in Him" but my view is Christ was chosen to be the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:19-20) and when God chose Christ as Redeemer, He chose corporately all those His Redeemer would redeem.

If Christ was Chosen before the foundation to be the lamb, then His Body the Church was Chosen together with Him, Christ has from the beginning been the Head of the Church His Body Col 1:17-18

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

So whenever Christ was Chosen His Body the Church was Chosen together with Him, or He was a bodiless Christ ! Which is unscriptural !

So all those Chosen in Him are a corporate. The word corporate means:

United or combined into one body; collective

The corporation is meade up of the members of His Body !

I believe you use the word corporation in ignorance not understanding what it means, you probably just used it after seeing other men who deny election use it also out of ignorance. But a Corporation is made up of indidivual members !

The word means:

A group of people combined into or acting as one body.

 

[Van]

Continued Response:

Well, if the Lord Jesus has shed His blood for a load of people who will not repent or believe in Him, then that does not sound much like success to me. Christ laid down His life for the sheep (John 10:15). The sheep hear His voice and follow Him (v.27). Those who do not hear His voice are not His sheep (v.26). I can't think of anything more clear or more simple.

Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, He tasted death for everyone, He is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world. This then would include and not exclude the church, and therefore this view is consistent, once again with all these verses.

If there is any doubt of this, Jude 4 makes it clear.

I see your point, they crept in unnoticed. But this does not support they professed they had been bought. Instead, the view that they denied Christ is reinforced. Therefore 2 Peter 2:1 teaches unsaved people headed for destruction had been bought by Christ.

If it is a description of Christ then it is the only time in the Bible that the word despotes is clearly used of Him (Jude 4 is somewhat debateable). Invariably He is referred to as kyrios. Also, it appears from vs. 19-21 that these men were claiming to know Christ and the way of righteousness. Now (v.1), they are denying the One whom they claimed had bought them.

No verse says "they claimed Christ had bought them." None, zip, nada. You are rewriting the text, they were bought by Christ.

Well, not to do so seems to me to be more than special pleading. It is taking a chestnut horse and claiming it to be a horse chestnut. There is one flock and one Shepherd' (John 10:16 and even more clearly, Eph. 2:14-22).

Again, no one is saying there is more than one flock and one Shepherd. But before people enter His flock, they are not yet "My Sheep." They are the fields white for harvest. This is not special pleading, just biblical truth.

Future believers are 'chosen in Christ' before the foundation of the world and predestined to adoption as sons (Eph. 1:4-5). They are not actually 'in Christ' until they believe and are justified (cf. Rom. 16:7). However, since the very faith with which we believe is a gift of God (Eph. 2:8), and since Christ will not lose even one of those whom the Father has given Him (John 6:37, 39), every one of those for whom Christ died will be saved.

This is a repeat assertion. Still not biblical. Future believers are chosen in Christ corporately before the foundation of the world. When the Redeemer was chosen, those the Redeemer would redeem were chosen corporately. That is why Ephesians 1:4 says chosen in Him. We are placed "in Him" when God chooses us individually through faith in the truth.

I think we have now done this to death. Unless you have anything new and substantial to add, I have finished here. My experience is that folk never change their minds on these forums, but perhaps those reading this will be helped in some way. I am glad to see that you are a classic Arminian and not a semi-Pelagian. Thank you for a stimulating discussion. :thumbs:

If you think I am a classic Arminian, you have no grasp of what I have presented.

By the numbers:
1) Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, those saved or to be saved and those lost and heading for destruction. The effort to rewrite 2 Peter 2:1 was shown to be unbiblical.

2) We are not chosen unconditionally, but through faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

3) Future believers are not yet in Christ, John 17:20-21.

4) Everyone given to Christ arrives in Christ, John 6:37. They must be "in Christ" for Christ to say they will not be cast out.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Hello Bro Joe,
I can't spend much time right now because I'm going out. May I just refer you to the text I quoted to Van? Romans 16:7. 'Greet Andronicus and Junia........who also were in Christ before I was.' How can that be if we were all in Christ from eternity?
There's no question that all those to whom grace was given in Christ in eternity will be in Christ, but we are not actually ourselves in Christ until we believe. It's like that bike your parents bought you for your birthday. They've bought it; you're going to get it, but you don't actually receive it until the day.

Brother, I believe Romans 16:7 has to be understood in light of 2 Timothy 1:9 regarding,"according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began". Can you tell me how nonexistent creatures can be "in Christ" before the world began and also receive purpose and grace? They cant. Also, these verses more than the Romans verse, appear to be the subject of vital union as Paul mentions the recipients receiving both mercy and grace. Therefore, I interpret the verse you provided in Romans 16:7 that mentions being "in Christ" as Paul referring to the time of his conversion to Christianity, thus being identified as "in Christ", in this apparently Andronicus preceded him. Without such an interpretation, there would be a contradiction between the two verses and we know the Bible does not contradict itself.

Also, Psalm 90:1 makes eternal vital union undeniable when David states, " Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations"

Further, we received all spiritual blessings not while in earth, but according to scripture "in Christ" in "heavenly places". "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:" (Ephesians 1:3)

The seed of Christ from which the elect come is eternal and is incorruptible, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (1 Peter 1:23). The "word" in this verse is not the written word, but the Greek word "logos" which is used in John 1:1 and 14 to identify Christ himself. Help Word studies states, "3056 /lógos ("word") is preeminently used of Christ (Jn 1:1)" See http://biblehub.com/greek/3056.htm

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[Van]

Brother Van,

2 Timothy 1:9 clearly states the elect must have been "in Christ" before the world began, "...his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

It says "us" and the "us" were "in Christ Jesus" and at that time received both purpose and grace before the creation of the world. You cannot give both mercy and purpose to nonexistent creatures, nor can nonexistent creatures be "in Christ Jesus", therefore the elect were "in Christ" in seed form before the world began. In similar manner, Adam, who was a type of Christ, had his wife Eve in his rib, before she was even made human (created), likewise Christ's wife, the church, was in Christ in seed form before they were created human beings. This is called the doctrine of eternal vital union.

Hi Brother Joseph, I read the verse very differently from you.

who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

First this verse addresses individuals who have been, past tense, placed in Christ during their lifetime. They were saved and called to a holy calling according to God's purpose and grace. Now when was this purpose and grace established? From time eternal, i.e. before the foundation of the world. And who are the recipients of that grace? Those in Christ. Note they were not recipients before God placed them in Christ.

Note also, Brother Joseph, this view does not require people to be created before they are created. Also note future believers are not yet in Christ, John 17:20-21.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

van



If Christ was Chosen before the foundation to be the lamb, then His Body the Church was Chosen together with Him, Christ has from the beginning been the Head of the Church His Body Col 1:17-18

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

So whenever Christ was Chosen His Body the Church was Chosen together with Him, or He was a bodiless Christ ! Which is unscriptural !

Brother savedbyMercy , yet another solid post on eternal vital union! I never thought of the verses in Colossians 1:17-18 in light of this doctrine, but as he is the head of the church, and we are members of his body, it must logically be concluded that the church always existed in him, unless somebody wants to believe the preposterous idea that the church existed with a head but no body. Such a creature could not live and is foreign to biology as we know it.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Hi Brother Joseph, I read the verse very differently from you.


First this verse addresses individuals who have been, past tense, placed in Christ during their lifetime. They were saved and called to a holy calling according to God's purpose and grace. Now when was this purpose and grace established? From time eternal, i.e. before the foundation of the world. And who are the recipients of that grace? Those in Christ. Note they were not recipients before God placed them in Christ.

Brother Van,

The verse does not address people who were placed in Christ during their lifetime, you are using your preconceived belief to interpret it, rather than let the verse speak for itself what it plainly teaches, it explicitly states, "...but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" What person do you know that had their lifetime begin before the world began? Also it states the grace and purpose was given "before the world began", how can one give grace and purpose to a nonexistent creature? Further, how can a nonexistent creature be said to be "in Christ Jesus"..."before the world began"? In my opinion, the only way one can reject what this verse so clearly proclaims is if they approach it with a preconceived doctrinal bias and thus twist it to meet such.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[savedbymercy]

Brother savedbyMercy , yet another solid post on eternal vital union! I never thought of the verses in Colossians 1:17-18 in light of this doctrine, but as he is the head of the church, and we are members of his body, it must logically be concluded that the church always existed in him, unless somebody wants to believe the preposterous idea that the church existed with a head but no body. Such a creature could not live and is foreign to biology as we know it.

Yes Christ as the Head of His Body The Church was that Active Medium of Creation Col 1:15-16 and as all things were created for Him, they were Created also for His Body The Church, so He writes to the Church in light of this 1 Corinthians 3:21-23 ! They were already joint heirs with Christ Rom 8:17 !

 

[Van]

Well one of us must be twisting the verse to our view. Perhaps both.

1) The first part of the verse says He saved us and called us. That is past tense, a done deal. Thus for you to say the verse does not address folks placed in Christ is a denial of the obvious.

2) The verse says the grace was given or granted us in Christ Jesus. Thus nothing was given or granted us before we were in Christ Jesus. Now God certainly established His purpose and redemption plan before the foundation of the world. We must agree on this because Jesus was foreknown as the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world. Now how can something be granted or given us before we receive it? God's purpose and plan is to grant or give salvation to everyone God puts in Christ, to everyone spiritually baptized into Him. This redemptive action is predestined according to God's purpose. Therefore the purpose and grace was given us (each and every person God puts in Christ) before time eternal. This view does not twist the verse, it presents a straightforward reading of the text. It does not have individuals created before creation and put in Christ before Christ completes His sacrifice as the Lamb of God. That is your view and to my mind, it is all twisted and out of sequence.

3) Next I do not agree that the verse says we were in Christ before creation. Again, the purpose and grace was predestined according to God's redemption plan for anyone and everyone God places in Christ. And again, I point to John 17:20-21 were future believes are not yet "in Us." Therefore the view that people were "in Christ" before creation is untenable.

4) Note verse 2 Timothy 2:1, the grace is in Christ Jesus. Therefore anyone placed in Christ receives the grace that is in Christ Jesus, which had been granted to anyone put in Christ before creation.

5) It is easy to charge others with bias, but I submit my view reflects the straight up reading of text. It is just different from the one you were taught or derived.

 

[savedbymercy]

Well one of us must be twisting the verse to our view. Perhaps both.

1) The first part of the verse says He saved us and called us. That is past tense, a done deal. Thus for you to say the verse does not address folks placed in Christ is a denial of the obvious.

2) The verse says the grace was given or granted us in Christ Jesus. Thus nothing was given or granted us before we were in Christ Jesus. Now God certainly established His purpose and redemption plan before the foundation of the world. We must agree on this because Jesus was foreknown as the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world. Now how can something be granted or given us before we receive it? God's purpose and plan is to grant or give salvation to everyone God puts in Christ, to everyone spiritually baptized into Him. This redemptive action is predestined according to God's purpose. Therefore the purpose and grace was given us (each and every person God puts in Christ) before time eternal. This view does not twist the verse, it presents a straightforward reading of the text. It does not have individuals created before creation and put in Christ before Christ completes His sacrifice as the Lamb of God. That is your view and to my mind, it is all twisted and out of sequence.

3) Next I do not agree that the verse says we were in Christ before creation. Again, the purpose and grace was predestined according to God's redemption plan for anyone and everyone God places in Christ. And again, I point to John 17:20-21 were future believes are not yet "in Us." Therefore the view that people were "in Christ" before creation is untenable.

4) Note verse 2 Timothy 2:1, the grace is in Christ Jesus. Therefore anyone placed in Christ receives the grace that is in Christ Jesus, which had been granted to anyone put in Christ before creation.

5) It is easy to charge others with bias, but I submit my view reflects the straight up reading of text. It is just different from the one you were taught or derived.

According to 2 Tim 1:9 When was the Purpose and Grace given them in Christ Jesus?

 

[steaver]

Scripture doesn't actually say they were bought with the blood of Christ in 2Peter 2:1 ! So how are you sticking with what scriptures actually says? You don't even practice what you preach!

You have made hundreds of post on the subject of limited atonement. I have yet to see one scripture that says Christ's atonement is limited. Not one.

 

[savedbymercy]

You have made hundreds of post on the subject of limited atonement. I have yet to see one scripture that says Christ's atonement is limited. Not one.

I have yet to see one scripture that says it is not limited, not one!

 

[steaver]

I have yet to see one scripture that says it is not limited, not one!

Provide just one, just one, that says the atonement is limited..........

 

[savedbymercy]

Provide just one, just one, that says the atonement is limited..........

I never said that a verse said that? Do you have a quote by me saying that?

On the other hand, van said that 2Peter 2:1 says that they were bought with the blood of Christ! Now does that verse say that? Yes or No?

 

[tyndale1946]

Provide just one, just one, that says the atonement is limited..........

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins... There is the limited atonement... Who are they?... Only God knows that!... Brother Glen

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Provide just one, just one, that says the atonement is limited..........

'Limited' is an unfortunate word to use for the atonement, for the Great Crowd that no one can number is just as big under Calvinism as Arminianism. 'Particular' is much better although TUPIP isn't quite as catchy as TULIP.

Christ lays down His life for His sheep. His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. He gives them eternal life and they shall never perish. They are those whom the Father predestined from the foundation of the world and gave to the Son to redeem. Christ will not lose even one of them.

 

[steaver]

I never said that a verse said that? Do you have a quote by me saying that?

On the other hand, van said that 2Peter 2:1 says that they were bought with the blood of Christ! Now does that verse say that? Yes or No?

Then by your own standards of interpretation, there is no such thing as limited atonement since no verses says such a thing. That is why your demand on Van is hypocritical.

 

[savedbymercy]

Then by your own standards of interpretation, there is no such thing as limited atonement since no verses says such a thing. That is why your demand on Van is hypocritical.

Does 2Peter 2:1 say that they were bought with the blood of Christ? Yes or No? Van said it says that!

 

[steaver]

Does 2Peter 2:1 say that they were bought with the blood of Christ? Yes or No? Van said it says that!

Thank you! My point confirmed....

 

[savedbymercy]

Thank you! My point confirmed....

Evasion as usual!