Who are those ALL God has Mercy On ?

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning

Sometime after 11:00pm Pacific, this thread will be closed.

 

[savedbymercy]

steaver

He refuses to debate any of his own OPs.

Not true, thats the problen, people evade the points I make in my ops, like this thread for instance. What are the points I made in my OP, review them with me, then we can debate them !

 

[The Archangel]

steaver

He refuses to debate any of his own OPs.

Not true, thats the problen, people evade the points I make in my ops, like this thread for instance. What are the points I made in my OP, review them with me, then we can debate them !

Well... no, it is true--you do refuse to debate any of your own OPs.

The problem here, Savedbymercy, is, aside from your woeful way of handling the text itself, you do not control the debate. As the OP, you do have a modicum of direction setting, etc., but you are not the grand poobah who gets to control every jot and tittle in your thread.

What is more, it is painfully apparent that you are after one thing: Unqualified agreement. We have pointed out to you that we understand your post, that you've erred in your "points," how you've erred in your points, etc. Then we get told by you that we don't understand your points.

This forum is not a place for you to bludgeon people with your brand of hyper-Calvinism; it is a place for debate--and that is something you refuse time and time again to engage in.

Your statement here:

This thread is about what I started about with the OP, If you want to know the things I believe, read my threads . My point otherwise was does 2 Pet 2:1 say that they were bought with the blood of Christ, yes or no ! I am not interested in discussing that verse ! I am interested in discussing the OP ! (emphasis mine)

Demonstrates an incapacity or an unwillingness to "debate." What you seem to be after is all of us in response to your OP saying something like: "Oh great Savedbymercy, thank you for fantastic post. You've brought me out of my ignorant slumber, etc......." For one thing, because you do not engage in a proper hermeneutic or exegesis, that ain't gonna happen.

So, decide whether you want to discuss or be worshiped.

The Archangel

 

[savedbymercy]

Well... no, it is true--you do refuse to debate any of your own OPs.

The problem here, Savedbymercy, is, aside from your woeful way of handling the text itself, you do not control the debate. As the OP, you do have a modicum of direction setting, etc., but you are not the grand poobah who gets to control every jot and tittle in your thread.

What is more, it is painfully apparent that you are after one thing: Unqualified agreement. We have pointed out to you that we understand your post, that you've erred in your "points," how you've erred in your points, etc. Then we get told by you that we don't understand your points.

This forum is not a place for you to bludgeon people with your brand of hyper-Calvinism; it is a place for debate--and that is something you refuse time and time again to engage in.

Your statement here:



Demonstrates an incapacity or an unwillingness to "debate." What you seem to be after is all of us in response to your OP saying something like: "Oh great Savedbymercy, thank you for fantastic post. You've brought me out of my ignorant slumber, etc......." For one thing, because you do not engage in a proper hermeneutic or exegesis, that ain't gonna happen.

So, decide whether you want to discuss or be worshiped.

The Archangel

No it's not true, folks refuse to debate me on the points I made, they evade them, even you do ! All you have done is contradicted them without explaining that you understand them! Also I am not seeking to get people to agree with me, that is a lie! I have never said that!

 

[Rippon]

I am not seeking to get people to agree with me,

I don't agree with you.

 

[Van]

Van, are you quite sure that Despotes refers to Christ?

The Greek word translated as Master in 2 Peter 2:1 refers to Christ as the provider of grace.

Thayer's lexicon, "...Christ is so called, as one who bought his servants, 2 Peter 2:1, rules over the church, Jude 4... and whose prerogative it is to take vengeance on those who persecute his followers, Revelation 6:10."

Are you quite sure that agorazo means to purchase with blood?

While the Greek word has a wider meaning, in 2 Peter 2:1 the idea is that Christ bought even those headed for destruction, when He laid down His life as a ransom for all.

Are you quite sure that your interpretation does not contradict other, clearer portions of the word of God?

Yes, my view does not conflict with any scripture, contextually considered.

To resolve this is going to take some more detailed analysis that I've given so far. I'll try to come back later
.

No amount of detailed analysis will erase a mistaken view. Limited atonement is unbiblical. Plenty of passages prove Christ died for the church, but none suggest Christ died only for the church. Plenty of other passages proved Christ tasted death for everyone, which would of course include the church. The idea, simply put is this, Christ's death provided two blessings: (1) He became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, all mankind, those saved and those headed for destruction, and (2) He saves each and every individual God chooses to give to Christ by spiritually baptizing them into Christ. This view is consistent with all scripture.

 

[savedbymercy]

The Greek word translated as Master in 2 Peter 2:1 refers to Christ as the provider of grace.

Thayer's lexicon, "...Christ is so called, as one who bought his servants, 2 Peter 2:1, rules over the church, Jude 4... and whose prerogative it is to take vengeance on those who persecute his followers, Revelation 6:10."

While the Greek word has a wider meaning, in 2 Peter 2:1 the idea is that Christ bought even those headed for destruction, when He laid down His life as a ransom for all.

Yes, my view does not conflict with any scripture, contextually considered.

No amount of detailed analysis will erase a mistaken view. Limited atonement is unbiblical. Plenty of passages prove Christ died for the church, but none suggest Christ died only for the church. Plenty of other passages proved Christ tasted death for everyone, which would of course include the church. The idea, simply put is this, Christ's death provided two blessings: (1) He became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, all mankind, those saved and those headed for destruction, and (2) He saves each and every individual God chooses to give to Christ by spiritually baptizing them into Christ. This view is consistent with all scripture.

Does it say in 2Peter 2:1 they were bought with the blood of Christ? Yes or No?

 

[savedbymercy]

Made double post!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The Greek word translated as Master in 2 Peter 2:1 refers to Christ as the provider of grace.

Thayer's lexicon, "...Christ is so called, as one who bought his servants, 2 Peter 2:1, rules over the church, Jude 4... and whose prerogative it is to take vengeance on those who persecute his followers, Revelation 6:10."

The Greek word desptes is translated as 'Lord' five times and 'Master' five times in the N.T. Check out (as well as 2 Peter 2:1; Jude 4) Luke 2:29; Acts 4:24; Rev. 6:10 ('Lord') and 1 Tim. 6:1, 2; 2 Tim. 2:21; Titus 2:9; 1 Peter 2:18. These last five refer to human masters, and the first three clearly refer to God the Father. Your view of Jude 4 will probably depend on whether you follow the Majority or Critical Text, but at all events it is uncertain. Therefore, if depotes refers to the Lord Jesus Christ in 2 Peter 2:1, then pace Thayer, it is the only place in the Bible where it does.

As mentioned earlier, Peter's remarks are very likely to be an O.T. allusion. As well as Exod. 15:16, there is also Deut 32:6. Do you thus deal with the LORD, O foolish and unwise people? Is He not your Father who bought you?' The thought here is that God bought the Israelites out from Egypt when Hespared them from the last plague. Nonetheless, most of those He 'bought' perished in the wilderness. This is the difference between the Old and New Covenants. In the New Covenant, 'All shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I shall be merciful to their unrighteousness and their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more' (Heb. 8:11-12). Those in the New Covenant are Christ's sheep, and the Good Shepherd has laid down His life for them.

No amount of detailed analysis will erase a mistaken view. Limited atonement is unbiblical. Plenty of passages prove Christ died for the church, but none suggest Christ died only for the church. Plenty of other passages proved Christ tasted death for everyone, which would of course include the church. The idea, simply put is this, Christ's death provided two blessings: (1) He became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, all mankind, those saved and those headed for destruction, and (2) He saves each and every individual God chooses to give to Christ by spiritually baptizing them into Christ. This view is consistent with all scripture.

Your view still has particular salvation, but of course it fails to account for pretty much the whole of John 10. Christ did not lay down His life for the goats. Also, if Christ were the propitiation for every single person in the whole world (1 John 2:2) then the Father would be propitiated and propitious toward every single person in the whole world, but plainly He isn't. I might add that the idea that God would be propitiated towards someone and then deny Him Spirit baptism seems to me to be quite without merit.

 

[savedbymercy]

I don't agree with you.

That's fine, do you have a quote of me saying that?

 

[Van]

Hi Martin, no sure what you are saying but I indicated the Greek word translated as Master at 2 Peter 2:1 refers to Christ, as it does in Jude 4 and Revelation 6:10.

Why do you say these three are "uncertain." Thayer's agrees with me.
NASB Jude 4, "...and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."
WEB Jude 4, "...and denying our only Master, God, and Lord, Jesus Christ." Thus our Greek word refers to Christ. Ditto for Revelation 6:10.

Peter's remark refers to Christ. No need to suggest the 10th plague is in view. Good Grief.

The reference to Hebrews 8:11-12 is non-germane.

My view is completely consistent with all scripture, including John 10.

John 10 is dealing with those that enter His kingdom, and become "My Sheep." Nothing I have said conflicts with that. That is why you used a generalized argument. And notice verse 11, when Jesus lays down His life for "the" sheep. Not His Sheep or My sheep, but the sheep, those that enter through Him and those who never will.

 

[savedbymercy]

Hi Martin, no sure what you are saying but I indicated the Greek word translated as Master at 2 Peter 2:1 refers to Christ, as it does in Jude 4 and Revelation 6:10.

Why do you say these three are "uncertain." Thayer's agrees with me.
NASB Jude 4, "...and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."
WEB Jude 4, "...and denying our only Master, God, and Lord, Jesus Christ." Thus our Greek word refers to Christ. Ditto for Revelation 6:10.

Peter's remark refers to Christ. No need to suggest the 10th plague is in view. Good Grief.

The reference to Hebrews 8:11-12 is non-germane.

My view is completely consistent with all scripture, including John 10.

John 10 is dealing with those that enter His kingdom, and become "My Sheep." Nothing I have said conflicts with that. That is why you used a generalized argument. And notice verse 11, when Jesus lays down His life for "the" sheep. Not His Sheep or My sheep, but the sheep, those that enter through Him and those who never will.

Does 2 Peter2:1 say they were bought with the blood of Christ?Yes or No!

 

[steaver]

No it's not true, folks refuse to debate me on the points I made, they evade them, even you do ! All you have done is contradicted them without explaining that you understand them! Also I am not seeking to get people to agree with me, that is a lie! I have never said that!

What do you want us to say sbm?

"Oh yes we see your points and you certainly have properly interpreted and have proven each scripture is to be seen as you have seen it, we can find no flaws in your expositions".

We have no idea what you mean when you ask us to reiterate your expositions back to you. Maybe you could play the one rehearsing your post and give us an example of what that would look like.

 

[savedbymercy]

What do you want us to say sbm?

"Oh yes we see your points and you certainly have properly interpreted and have proven each scripture is to be seen as you have seen it, we can find no flaws in your expositions".

We have no idea what you mean when you ask us to reiterate your expositions back to you. Maybe you could play the one rehearsing your post and give us an example of what that would look like.

What do you mean what do i want you to say ? Arent you on a debating forum and you dont know what to say ?

 

[steaver]

What do you mean what do i want you to say ? Arent you on a debating forum and you dont know what to say ?

Anyone who has attempted to debate you has received the same response...

Did you understand my points? Rehearse them back to me.....

 

[savedbymercy]

Anyone who has attempted to debate you has received the same response...

Did you understand my points? Rehearse them back to me.....

Well it is my points made that are to be debated aren't they?

 

[Rippon]

That's fine, do you have a quote of me saying that?

You make no sense.

You had said you are "not seeking to get people to agree" with you.

But it is indeed true.

You won't settle for anything less than complete capitulation.

 

[Rippon]

The Greek word desptes is translated as 'Lord' five times and 'Master' five times in the N.T. Check out (as well as 2 Peter 2:1; Jude 4) Luke 2:29; Acts 4:24; Rev. 6:10 ('Lord') and 1 Tim. 6:1, 2; 2 Tim. 2:21; Titus 2:9; 1 Peter 2:18. These last five refer to human masters, and the first three clearly refer to God the Father. Your view of Jude 4 will probably depend on whether you follow the Majority or Critical Text, but at all events it is uncertain. Therefore, if depotes refers to the Lord Jesus Christ in 2 Peter 2:1, then pace Thayer, it is the only place in the Bible where it does.

As mentioned earlier, Peter's remarks are very likely to be an O.T. allusion. As well as Exod. 15:16, there is also Deut 32:6. Do you thus deal with the LORD, O foolish and unwise people? Is He not your Father who bought you?' The thought here is that God bought the Israelites out from Egypt when Hespared them from the last plague. Nonetheless, most of those He 'bought' perished in the wilderness. This is the difference between the Old and New Covenants. In the New Covenant, 'All shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I shall be merciful to their unrighteousness and their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more' (Heb. 8:11-12). Those in the New Covenant are Christ's sheep, and the Good Shepherd has laid down His life for them.



Your view still has particular salvation, but of course it fails to account for pretty much the whole of John 10. Christ did not lay down His life for the goats. Also, if Christ were the propitiation for every single person in the whole world (1 John 2:2) then the Father would be propitiated and propitious toward every single person in the whole world, but plainly He isn't. I might add that the idea that God would be propitiated towards someone and then deny Him Spirit baptism seems to me to be quite without merit.

Martin's post above is very good.

If everyone has their sins propitiated then there will be no wrath of God awaiting them. Cancel Perdition then because that's where God's wrath will be be fully exhibited according to the Bible. One cannot with any rationality claim that Christ is the propitiation for each and every person if eternal torment is a reality. If one has had their sins propitiated then Heaven --not Perdition is their destination. Yet many are in Perdition, and many more will follow. That's because --many people have not been propitiated by Christ.

A simple understanding that not only has Christ made propitiation for those among the Jews, but for the scattered children among the Gentiles as well. See John 11:51b-52.

 

[savedbymercy]

You make no sense.

You had said you are "not seeking to get people to agree" with you.

But it is indeed true.

You won't settle for anything less than complete capitulation.

I reckon that means no, you have no quote of me saying that!

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.