Who are, "Those thou hast given to me..."

[Skandelon]

No Calvinist believes this, at least none I am familiar with. Don't blame Calvinism because of your ignorance of the system.

I was responding to his accusation of ME blaming God, when I was simply speaking of the implications of HIS system.

In Calvinism God ordained/decreed/decided to make all of mankind totally depraved from birth as a result of Adam's sin, thus making them unable to respond to HIS own genuine appeal to be reconciled. So, in Calvinism's worldview, God has ordained for all men to become His enemies and he has ordained for all men to not be able to respond to His appeal to be reconciled. Those are just the facts. If you all want to call that "blaming God," then that is your business...but its the FACTs of YOUR belief system.

In fact, I think you all know that, which is why you quote Romans 9:20-22 in defense of what you believe.

 

[quantumfaith]

No Calvinist believes this, at least none I am familiar with. Don't blame Calvinism because of your ignorance of the system.

Grasshopper, Skan is anything BUT IGNORANT, of calvinism. He speaks the truth of the scripture he quoted if one is to intellectually consistent.

 

[quantumfaith]

I was responding to his accusation of ME blaming God, when I was simply speaking of the implications of HIS system.

In Calvinism God ordained/decreed/decided to make all of mankind totally depraved from birth as a result of Adam's sin, thus making them unable to respond to HIS own genuine appeal to be reconciled. So, in Calvinism's worldview, God has ordained for all men to become His enemies and he has ordained for all men to not be able to respond to His appeal to be reconciled. Those are just the facts. If you all want to call that "blaming God," then that is your business...but its the FACTs of YOUR belief system.

In fact, I think you all know that, which is why you quote Romans 9:20-22 in defense of what you believe.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

I think perhaps Skan...."blame" is the "offensive" word. Most...."I think" would simply say and argue that it was by His deterministic decision and decree, the result is nonetheless the same. According to the Calvinist position, God is culpable.

 

[Iconoclast]

Skandelon

Let's make something clear. I reject Calvinism BECAUSE I refuse to 'blame shif

 

[Van]

I agree. That is the second fold of sheep that Jesus speaks of in John 10. John 17:20 points to this as well. :thumbsup:

The disciples were chosen before Christ died, and therefore were given for a different purpose - to present the gospel to the world - than the topic of John 6:37.

He is pointed out as the exception later in John 6, just as he is in John 17.

Yes, when Jesus is talking to and about the disciples, Judas is mentioned. But my point, no one cast out differs from the idea of being given disciples to spread the word and betray the Messiah.

And you seem to be disagreeing for no good reason. Sometimes I get the feeling you just like to disagree? :smilewinkgrin:

When you hit the mark, I post that you hit the mark. However, when you miss, as here, I post what I believe is truth. What you may be discerning is that my views differ from the mainstream views of both Calvinism and Arminianism, and therefore I might seem overly disagreeable.

 

[Skandelon]

The disciples were chosen before Christ died, and therefore were given for a different purpose - to present the gospel to the world - than the topic of John 6:37.

Right. I'm not sure why you'd think I'd disagree with that?

When you hit the mark, I post that you hit the mark. However, when you miss, as here, I post what I believe is truth. What you may be discerning is that my views differ from the mainstream views of both Calvinism and Arminianism, and therefore I might seem overly disagreeable.

No, actually, I don't see any discernible difference in my view from what you are saying, which leads me to think you may be overly disagreeable. But maybe I'm not understanding what it is you're attempting to say.

 

[convicted1]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Thank you!! LOL

 

[Van]

Right. I'm not sure why you'd think I'd disagree with that?


No, actually, I don't see any discernible difference in my view from what you are saying, which leads me to think you may be overly disagreeable. But maybe I'm not understanding what it is you're attempting to say.

I said the effort to make the two verses refer to the same group of people was in error. You agree with that assessment.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

I think perhaps Skan...."blame" is the "offensive" word. Most...."I think" would simply say and argue that it was by His deterministic decision and decree, the result is nonetheless the same. According to the Calvinist position, God is culpable.

Oh really! LOL. No wonder you take the position you do....too funny!:laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No Calvinist believes this, at least none I am familiar with. Don't blame Calvinism because of your ignorance of the system.

Ahhh Brother Grasshopper, you have caught on!

Like most of us, you will probably just get disgusted with the nonsense & not even waste your time bothering to fight it. Thats why most have moved on ....better than doing this...:BangHead:

 

[quantumfaith]

Oh really! LOL. No wonder you take the position you do....too funny!:laugh:

:sleep::sleep::sleep:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I leave the judgement of God....to God. I do not wickedly question or ascribe any hint of evil to the Lord God, who alone is Holy and Just. Never
:thumbs: I urge all here on BB to follow the saints in rev 19, who in heaven see clearly the right judgement of God.

Thank you Brother Icono for speaking the truth! :applause:

 

[Winman]

Calvin said that neither Satan nor men are able to conceive or perform sin unless God commands it.

How comes it, I ask, that their confidence never fails, but just that while the world apparently revolves at random, they know that God is every where at work, and feel assured that his work will be their safety? When assailed by the devil and wicked men, were they not confirmed by remembering and meditating on Providence, they 194 should, of necessity, forthwith despond. But when they call to mind that the devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are, in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how much soever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay, unless in so far as he commands; that they are not only bound by his fetters, but are even forced to do him service,—when the godly think of all these things they have ample sources of consolation. For, as it belongs to the lord to arm the fury of such foes and turn and destine it at pleasure, so it is his also to determine the measure and the end, so as to prevent them from breaking loose and wantoning as they list.

Read for yourself, Calvin said the devil and all the ungodly are held in all directions by the hand of God so that they cannot CONCEIVE mischief or PLAN what they conceive, nor how so much ever they have planned can they move a single finger to PERPETRATE evil unless he permits, no, unless so far as he COMMANDS them to do so, and that they are FORCED to do him service.

If this is not making God the author of evil, I do not know what is!

At least Calvin was honest about what he believed, and did not contradict himself.

 

[Amy.G]

Calvin said that neither Satan nor men are able to conceive or perform sin unless God commands it.



Read for yourself, Calvin said the devil and all the ungodly are held in all directions by the hand of God so that they cannot CONCEIVE mischief or PLAN what they conceive, nor how so much ever they have planned can they move a single finger to PERPETRATE evil unless he permits, no, unless so far as he COMMANDS them to do so, and that they are FORCED to do him service.

If this is not making God the author of evil, I do not know what is!

At least Calvin was honest about what he believed, and did not contradict himself.

That is NOT what he's saying. He is saying that God restrains evil as with a "bridle". And even evil ones must obey God. He is saying that we can be comforted that evil can only go so far as God allows. God is sovereign, evil is not.

 

[jbh28]

Calvin said that neither Satan nor men are able to conceive or perform sin unless God commands it.



Read for yourself, Calvin said the devil and all the ungodly are held in all directions by the hand of God so that they cannot CONCEIVE mischief or PLAN what they conceive, nor how so much ever they have planned can they move a single finger to PERPETRATE evil unless he permits, no, unless so far as he COMMANDS them to do so, and that they are FORCED to do him service.

If this is not making God the author of evil, I do not know what is!

At least Calvin was honest about what he believed, and did not contradict himself.

no one can do any sin unless God permits then to do it. In other words, God is sovereign and nothing happens in the world 1) without him knowing it and 2) that he couldn't stop if he so wanted to.

Further, God has a plan for the world and nothing happens at random. Think of Jesus being betrayed by Judas and killed by the Jews. Think of Joseph's brothers selling Joseph. They meant evil, but God meant good.

 

[jbh28]

That is NOT what he's saying. He is saying that God restrains evil as with a "bridle". And even evil ones must obey God. He is saying that we can be comforted that evil can only go so far as God allows. God is sovereign, evil is not.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

"FORCED to do him service" I think winman misread that.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That is NOT what he's saying. He is saying that God restrains evil as with a "bridle". And even evil ones must obey God. He is saying that we can be comforted that evil can only go so far as God allows. God is sovereign, evil is not.

Is that what he said? ROFL....trying to twist Calvin's words to meet his agenda of calling Calvinist essentially Fatalists! :laugh:

I no longer read commentary by some on here, rather I use the IGNORE feature....but that is the funniest stretch Ive heard in a while.

Thank you Amy for clearing that up1 I must say, I continue to be impressed by your clarity of understanding. The Holy Spirit has greatly blessed you my sister in Christ. :godisgood:

 

[Winman]

Is that what he said? ROFL....trying to twist Calvin's words to meet his agenda of calling Calvinist essentially Fatalists! :laugh:

I no longer read commentary by some on here, rather I use the IGNORE feature....but that is the funniest stretch Ive heard in a while.

Thank you Amy for clearing that up1 I must say, I continue to be impressed by your clarity of understanding. The Holy Spirit has greatly blessed you my sister in Christ. :godisgood:

Give me a break, Calvin said that the devil and the ungodly cannot even CONCEIVE of mischief unless God commands it.

You can deny all you want, Calvin was very clear about what he said.

 

[Amy.G]

Give me a break, Calvin said that the devil and the ungodly cannot even CONCEIVE of mischief unless God commands it.

You can deny all you want, Calvin was very clear about what he said.

You are misreading it. He says: " they are not only bound by his fetters, but are even forced to do him service,"

They are under God's command and authority. That is the point he is making. He is not saying that God authors evil.

 

[Winman]

You are misreading it. He says: " they are not only bound by his fetters, but are even forced to do him service,"

They are under God's command and authority. That is the point he is making. He is not saying that God authors evil.

That is not the point I am contending. Calvin said the devil and the ungodly are not able to CONCEIVE mischief unless God commands it. The word "conceive" means to invent or originate this mischief. Calvin is saying that the devil and the ungodly are not even able to originate or invent an evil thought unless God commands it. The devil cannot have an evil thought within himself, God has to command it before Satan has this ability.

You can deny all you want. It is one thing to say God permits evil, that is obvious. It is altogether different to say the devil and all ungodly angels and men cannot CONCEIVE evil unless God commands it. This is absolutely making God the author of sin.

Deny all you want, this is what Calvin wrote.