Who are, "Those thou hast given to me..."

[quantumfaith]

That is not the point I am contending. Calvin said the devil and the ungodly are not able to CONCEIVE mischief unless God commands it. The word "conceive" means to invent or originate this mischief. Calvin is saying that the devil and the ungodly are not even able to originate or invent an evil thought unless God commands it. The devil cannot have an evil thought within himself, God has to command it before Satan has this ability.

You can deny all you want. It is one thing to say God permits evil, that is obvious. It is altogether different to say the devil and all ungodly angels and men cannot CONCEIVE evil unless God commands it. This is absolutely making God the author of sin.

Deny all you want, this is what Calvin wrote.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Nice to see a semi Pelagian actually studying Calvin! Now where I wonder did you actually find it since I did not see any notification of authenticity. But seriously, who gives a spit about Calvin's commentary anyway.....for the most part, we are Baptists on this forum & we dont follow brother John Calvin as say the Presbyterians or the Dutch Reformed Churches do so your own commentary is essentially a mute point.

 

[Iconoclast]

If you want to really stop blaming God then renounce Calvinism.

You have it quite backwards.... Calvinism believes God. It believes in His righteous judgement. My other post got cut off, but I asked you this question-


You seem eager to post about Romans 9...but you start at the wrong verse.

start here;

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Calvinism agrees with Paul when he says...may it never be. Can you agree with this statement????
Under the guise of "correcting calvinism" you post finding fault with God quite often. Thread after thread, you twist what calvinists say.
We are quite content letting God be God. We know the judge of all the earth will do right.

You [winman, and van]would be better off if you let calvinists say what we say. If we want any of you three to be the "calvinist spokesmen" , we will let you know.

You have tried unsucessfully to turn the tables here. I do not blame God for anything as I clearly answered you earlier.Show where any of us blame God,then we can look at it.

 

[Winman]

Nice to see a semi Pelagian actually studying Calvin! Now where I wonder did you actually find it since I did not see any notification of authenticity. But seriously, who gives a spit about Calvin's commentary anyway.....for the most part, we are Baptists on this forum & we dont follow brother John Calvin as say the Presbyterians or the Dutch Reformed Churches do so your own commentary is essentially a mute point.

Sure, the best way to refute Calvinism is to quote Calvinists (or Calvin) themselves.

http://www.vor.org/rbdisk/html/institutes/1_17.htm

Go down to Section 11.

It is one thing to say that God permits the devil and men to do evil, but that is not what Calvin says here. He says the devil and the ungodly cannot CONCEIVE mischief unless God not only permits, but commands it to happen.

But when they call to mind that the devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are, in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how much soever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay, unless in so far as he commands; that they are not only bound by his fetters, but are even forced to do him service,

Calvin was a very intelligent man, he knew what the word "conceive" means.

Now, I know in other places he denies God is the author of sin, but that is double-talk. He speaks out of both sides of his mouth. And that is exactly what all Calvinists do. They say God ordains all things that come to pass, and then directly contradict themselves saying God is not the author of sin. This is a direct contradiction that cannot possibly be truth, but Calvinists believe it anyway.

 

[Winman]

Here are more statements from Calvin showing that he believed God willed, even decreed sin.

But from this mode of figurative repugnance and contradiction we may at once elicit the substance of that which Augustine testifies: “God in a secret and marvellous way justly wills the things which men unjustly do."

Having blattered forth his revilings till he was tired, our holy champion draws a little nearer, affirming that some men in these perilous times, not daring to teach openly that God is the cause of evils, intimate the same thing in varied forms of speech, asserting that Adam sinned by the will of God, and that wicked men perpetrate all their wickednesses not only by the permission of God, but by His actual impulse. Upon this our noble rhetorician exclaims with great lamentation, “O miserable man! How could it have been that God willed this, who had created Adam in His own image?” As if it were mine to render an exact reason for the secret counsels of God, and to make mortals understand, to a pin’s point, that heavenly wisdom, the height and depth of which they are commanded to look upon and adore. No! let Moses rather break short all such foolish loquacity by that word of his: “Secret things belong unto the Lord our God; but these which I testify are revealed unto you” (Deut. xxix. 29). We here see how Moses, commanding the people to be content with the doctrine of the law, admonishes them to leave His hidden counsels to God alone, as mysteries to be adored, not to be inquired into.

Here again Calvin says God wills men to do evil, and that men perpetrate all their wickedness, not merely by permission, but by the IMPULSE of God.

Then he makes the lame excuse that it is simply a mystery of the secret counsels of God that he cannot explain, and says we should not inquire into them.

Source;

http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/r...eternal-predestination-of-god-by-john-calvin/

 

[quantumfaith]

Nice to see a semi Pelagian actually studying Calvin! Now where I wonder did you actually find it since I did not see any notification of authenticity. But seriously, who gives a spit about Calvin's commentary anyway.....for the most part, we are Baptists on this forum & we dont follow brother John Calvin as say the Presbyterians or the Dutch Reformed Churches do so your own commentary is essentially a mute point.

:tear::tear::tear:

 

[quantumfaith]

Nice to see a semi Pelagian actually studying Calvin! Now where I wonder did you actually find it since I did not see any notification of authenticity. But seriously, who gives a spit about Calvin's commentary anyway.....for the most part, we are Baptists on this forum & we dont follow brother John Calvin as say the Presbyterians or the Dutch Reformed Churches do so your own commentary is essentially a mute point.

EWF, I am making no judgement on the man John Calvin. I simply agreed that Winman had a valid point as the meaning of the textual comment he shared. You are welcome to call me ANYTHING you wish.

 

[quantumfaith]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQPhdgLDIH0

 

[Winman]

EWF, I am making no judgement on the man John Calvin. I simply agreed that Winman had a valid point as the meaning of the textual comment he shared. You are welcome to call me ANYTHING you wish.

Calvin even admits his view is an irreconcilable contradiction, that the "carnal" mind cannot possibly understand, but those with a godly mind like his can simply accept as a mystery. What arrogance!! If you agree with him you were godly, if you disagreed you were carnal and profane!

They cannot harmonise by such carnal reasoning the voluntary sin of man and the eternal purpose of God. They cannot see, with these human eyes, how it was that man should be placed in that condition when first created, that he himself, falling by his own will, should be the cause of his own destruction; and yet that it was so ordained by the secret and eternal purpose of God that this voluntary destruction to the human race, and to all the posterity of Adam, should be a cause for the saints humbling themselves before God, and worshipping His eternal purpose in the whole. For, although it pleased God thus to ordain the whole, yet man did not the less willingly, on his part, hurl himself into this headlong ruin, who, nevertheless, had been endued with an upright nature, and had been made in the image of God. But I would repeat my being perfectly aware how much absurdity and irreconcilable contradiction these deep things seem to profane persons to carry with them. Nevertheless, let one conscience suffice us in the place of a thousand such witnesses. To which conscience, if we duly listen, we shall be ashamed not to confess that man perished justly, seeing that he chose rather to follow Satan than God!

Calvin simply claimed folks who disagreed with him were ungodly and carnal, and Calvinists do the same today.

And yet, he agrees his view is a contradiction. :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Dave...I would rather reach out to you in unity as a Christian brother rather than focusing on petty differences. In beliefs!

If we are to argue at all may I suggest we contest over who does a better job taking care of widow's & orphans. :wavey::wavey::wavey:

 

[quantumfaith]

Dave...I would rather reach out to you in unity as a Christian brother rather than focusing on petty differences. In beliefs!

If we are to argue at all may I suggest we contest over who does a better job taking care of widow's & orphans. :wavey::wavey::wavey:

I do not wish to be in a competition with you or any other brother or sister, I have enough spiritual challenges to keep me busy, not to mention the job of educating youthful minds as the benefits of mathematics in our world.

:love2:

 

[jbh28]

That is not the point I am contending. Calvin said the devil and the ungodly are not able to CONCEIVE mischief unless God commands it. The word "conceive" means to invent or originate this mischief. Calvin is saying that the devil and the ungodly are not even able to originate or invent an evil thought unless God commands it. The devil cannot have an evil thought within himself, God has to command it before Satan has this ability.

You can deny all you want. It is one thing to say God permits evil, that is obvious. It is altogether different to say the devil and all ungodly angels and men cannot CONCEIVE evil unless God commands it. This is absolutely making God the author of sin.

Deny all you want, this is what Calvin wrote.

No, it makes man the author sin. It's impossible for God to be the author of sin. It would be more possible for a square to be a circle than for God to be the author of sin. You are misreading(albeit purposefully now) what Calvin said. God works ALL things after the counsel of his will.

Was it God's will for Christ to die? Yep. There you go. Christ was unlawfully killed by the Jews. (murder is sin)

 

[Winman]

No, it makes man the author sin. It's impossible for God to be the author of sin. It would be more possible for a square to be a circle than for God to be the author of sin. You are misreading(albeit purposefully now) what Calvin said. God works ALL things after the counsel of his will.

Was it God's will for Christ to die? Yep. There you go. Christ was unlawfully killed by the Jews. (murder is sin)

You err, this is proved by the fact that the Jews tried to kill Jesus at least twice before the appointed Passover day.

Jhn 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Here, the Jew attempted to stone Jesus, but Jesus hid himself from them and escaped. God could not have caused this attempt to kill Jesus, as it was not the appointed time. Jesus had to die on the Passover.

Luk 4:28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.
30 But he passing through the midst of them went his way,

Here is another incident where the Jews attempted to cast Jesus off the brow of a hill to kill him, but Jesus escaped from them because it was not the appointed time.

These two incidents prove God did not cause or determine that the Jews would kill Jesus because it would have thwarted God's own plan that Jesus die on the Passover as a sacrifice for the sins of the people. God is not divided against himself.

No, God allowed the Jews to kill Jesus at the proper time. God willingly gave Jesus as a sacrifice, and Jesus willingly died as a sacrifice. Jesus did not have to die, he could have called on God to deliver him.

Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Jesus didn't have to die, he willingly allowed himself to be taken and crucified. This is what was determined.

God did not determine that the Jews would kill Jesus. Satan tried to kill Jesus when he tempted him to leap off the temple, and at least twice the Jews attempted to kill Jesus, but Jesus escaped all three times. God could not have caused these attempts to kill Jesus because it was not the proper time. The devil and the Jews already of their own free will desired to kill Jesus, God only allowed them to do so on the Passover day.

God foreknew the devil and the Jews would desire to kill Jesus, but he did not cause this, God never tempts any man to sin (James 1:13)

You err because you do not know the scriptures.

 

[Winman]

No, it makes man the author sin. It's impossible for God to be the author of sin. It would be more possible for a square to be a circle than for God to be the author of sin. You are misreading(albeit purposefully now) what Calvin said. God works ALL things after the counsel of his will.

Was it God's will for Christ to die? Yep. There you go. Christ was unlawfully killed by the Jews. (murder is sin)

You err, this is proved by the fact that the Jews tried to kill Jesus at least twice before the appointed Passover day.

Jhn 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Here, the Jews attempted to stone Jesus, but Jesus hid himself from them and escaped. God could not have caused this attempt to kill Jesus, because Jesus had to die on the Passover for the sins of the people.

Luk 4:28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.
30 But he passing through the midst of them went his way,

Here is another incident where the Jews attempted to kill Jesus, but Jesus escaped because it was not the appointed time for him to die.

God did not cause the Jews to attempt to kill Jesus here, or it would have thwarted God's own plan for Jesus to die as the Passover Lamb for the sins of the people. God is not divided against himself.

God knew the Jews would attempt to kill Jesus, but he did not cause it. God never tempts any man to sin (James 1:13)

Jesus did not have to die, God willingly offered him, and Jesus willingly offered himself.

Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

The devil tried to kill Jesus when he tempted him to leap off the temple, God did not cause this. At least twice before the crucifixion the Jews attempted to kill Jesus. God did not cause this either. God did not cause or determine the Jews to kill Jesus, he ALLOWED it to fulfill his purpose that Jesus would die for our sins. This is what was determined.

God does not cause people to sin, but he allows it. This is not what Calvin said, Calvin said the devil and the ungodly cannot CONCEIVE of evil unless God commands it. This is SERIOUS error.

 

[saturneptune]

This question is for learning, and not debating. If there are two groups mentioned in John, one before and one after the Resurrection, dealt with in different ways by God, how can one believe in covenant theology and follow that reasoning?

 

[jbh28]

You err, this is proved by the fact that the Jews tried to kill Jesus at least twice before the appointed Passover day.

Jhn 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Here, the Jews attempted to stone Jesus, but Jesus hid himself from them and escaped. God could not have caused this attempt to k

This has nothing to do with what I said, but nice try.

 

[Winman]

This has nothing to do with what I said, but nice try.

It has everything to do with this issue and you know it. God could not have caused the Jews to desire to kill Jesus before the appointed time, that would thwart God's very plans that Jesus die on the Passover. You know that.

Why would Jesus have to escape his Father's own plan? Nonsensical.

You will deny no matter what. God foreknew the Jews would kill Jesus, but he did not cause it. Twice Jesus escaped when the Jews tried to kill him, only when the Passover came did Jesus ALLOW himself to be taken and crucified.

 

[jbh28]

Here, the Jew attempted to stone Jesus, but Jesus hid himself from them and escaped. God could not have caused this attempt to kill Jesus, as it was not the appointed time. Jesus had to die on the Passover.

Here is another incident where the Jews attempted to cast Jesus off the brow of a hill to kill him, but Jesus escaped from them because it was not the appointed time.

These two incidents prove God did not cause or determine that the Jews would kill Jesus because it would have thwarted God's own plan that Jesus die on the Passover as a sacrifice for the sins of the people. God is not divided against himself.

so God didn't permit the evil action because it wasn't God's timing yet.... Thanks for agreeing with me and what you quoted.

God did not determine that the Jews would kill Jesus.

Yes he did God works all things after the counsel of his will.

Satan tried to kill Jesus when he tempted him to leap off the temple, and at least twice the Jews attempted to kill Jesus, but Jesus escaped all three times. God could not have caused these attempts to kill Jesus because it was not the proper time. The devil and the Jews already of their own free will desired to kill Jesus, God only allowed them to do so on the Passover day.

God allowed...sounds like what we were talking about. It was God's plan that the Jews would kill Jesus on a certain day and guess what, it happened..... It was not God's plan for it to happen earlier and guess what, it didn't happen.

God foreknew the devil and the Jews would desire to kill Jesus, but he did not cause this, God never tempts any man to sin (James 1:13)

[snip- personal attacks are not tolerated]

No one has ever said that God tempts any man to sin. Not once have you seen that. But it sounds like you agree with us. God is sovereign over man sins and man cannot sin unless God allows him(as you gave evidence above) and God uses mans sin to accomplish his will(Christ's death on the cross, Joseph being sold).

God works all things after the counsel of his will.

 

[jbh28]

It has everything to do with this issue and you know it. God could not have caused the Jews to desire to kill Jesus before the appointed time, that would thwart God's very plans that Jesus die on the Passover. You know that.

They didn't do it. That's the point. They didn't do it. Get it? God didn't allow it to happen. God is sovereign an no one can do any sin with out God permitting it.

Why would Jesus have to escape his Father's own plan? Nonsensical.

It wasn't his Father's plan so they didn't do it. Exactly Calvin's point.

You will deny no matter what. God foreknew the Jews would kill Jesus, but he did not cause it. Twice Jesus escaped when the Jews tried to kill him, only when the Passover came did Jesus ALLOW himself to be taken and crucified.

God works all things after the counsel of his will. It was God's plan for Jesus to be killed by the Jews and a specific time and that's exactly what happened. It was not because God looked ahead to see if anyone wanted to kill. God wanted it at a certain time and worked all events to get that to happen.

 

[Winman]

so God didn't permit the evil action because it wasn't God's timing yet.... Thanks for agreeing with me and what you quoted.
Yes he did God works all things after the counsel of his will.

God allowed...sounds like what we were talking about. It was God's plan that the Jews would kill Jesus on a certain day and guess what, it happened..... It was not God's plan for it to happen earlier and guess what, it didn't happen.

No one has ever said that God tempts any man to sin. Not once have you seen that. But it sounds like you agree with us. God is sovereign over man sins and man cannot sin unless God allows him(as you gave evidence above) and God uses mans sin to accomplish his will(Christ's death on the cross, Joseph being sold).

God works all things after the counsel of his will.

Everyone agrees God ALLOWS sin, that is obvious.

Calvin did say God causes sin, he said the devil and the ungodly cannot even CONCEIVE of mischief (sin) unless God commanded it. Deny all you want, I posted the link where you can read for yourself.

You will deny no matter what, I already know that about you.