Who did Christ come to save?

[ILUVLIGHT]

Whatever;
Were you in Christ when you were elected? If so then you must have fallen from grace at some point to become so depraved as to reject Him, before you stopped rejecting him because God just came a long and put you back in Him again. Hmmmmmmmm.
We were chosen in Him and He was before the foundation of the world. Not us. We were not chosen before the foundation of the world.
In the Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
If only THAT were actually true about Calvinism!!

What I quoted is true about Calvinism. It was taken directly from the Canons of Dordt.

The Second Main Point of Doctrine

Christ's Death and Human Redemption Through Its

Article 3: The Infinite Value of Christ's Death

This death of God's Son is the only and entirely complete sacrifice and satisfaction for sins; it is of infinite value and worth, more than sufficient to atone for the sins of the whole world.

It has, once again, become patently clear that you have no idea of what Calvinism really teaches.

When we get to 1John 2:2 Calvinists like to argue that Christ is NOT The Atoning Sacrifice for the WHOLE WORLD even though the text SAYS He is!!

But, of course, that is not what the text says! What it says is "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." You may not like that word "ilamov" but you will have to take it up with God. After all, He is the one who inspired it!

Now look at what it says, "he is the propitiation for our sins (that is, the Jewish believers): and not for ours (the Jewish believers) only, but also for the sins of the whole world (the Gentile believers also)."

They prefer to say "propitiation" in honor of the greek pagan notion of appeasement instead of the Hebrew context of "Atonement" -- but even then they have argued ON THIS BOARD -- REPEATEDLY - that this is NOT for the WHOLE WORLD -

I don't think God is a fool. I think he inspired the word he wanted to inspire, and that word was "ilamov" meaning "an appeasing, propitiating."

Christ does not even suffer and die for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD in Calvinism much less "effectively atone" for the WHOLE WORLD.

Of course Christ suffered and died for the whole world. But the atonement is only applied to those who believe.

They argue that IF Christ sufferred the amount OWED by the WHOLE World then in the case of the finally lost - that would be "God getting paid TWICE" and they think that is a bad thing.

No, they don't. They say that, if Christ atoned for the sins of every person everywhere, without exception, then every person everywhere, without exception, would go to heaven.

So they argue that God gets "paid" or "Expiated" or "appeased" only for the DEBT owed by the saints and Christ does NOT endure the suffering owed (the debt owed) by the finally lost - so that God only get's paid "ONCE" for each person.

Wrong again. His sacrifice was sufficient for all but is efficient only for those who believe.

And that is what is so counterfactual to scripture in Calvinism's "Limited Atonement".

What is "counterfactual" is your complete misrepresentation of limited atonement. You have shown you don't have a clue what it means.

They define Atonement as the suffering of Christ at the cross - so when they speak of limited atonement it is AUTOMATICALLY limited amount of suffering that is in direct proportion/payment/expiation/appeasement for the sins of the saints.

Wrong again. Sufficient for all, efficient only for those who believe.

You have been told this same thing time after time after time but you still don't seem able to understand these very simple facts.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Just where is it that the Bible says Jesus death purchased redemption. Christ didn't die to purchase redemption. He died so that His blood would wash away the sins of the world. Redemption is what he did not what he died for.

Aside from "purchasing redemption" being kind of redundant, since "redemption" means "to purchase or buy," the Bible does state that Jesus died to redeem us.

Hebrews 9:15 15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Titus 2:14 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

Galatians 4:4-5 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Mike, this is the second time today you have posted something in clear contradiction of what Scripture says (or perhaps one of them might have been posted last night). Please take the time to review what Scripture says, regardless of what side you come down. It is increasingly looking like you are just being disagreeable, rather than posting substance.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Christ came to save sinners as is documented throughout the Word of God. I think we all have to read I Timothy 1:15 again.

Does it say that '. . . Christ Jesus came into the world, to save elected sinners, of whom I am chief' or does He say that '. . . Christ Jesus came into the world, to save sinners, of whom I am chief.'

The Lord God speaking through the Apostle Paul says one of these two phrases. Which one is it?

Calvinism is an interesting and twisted quasi-theology that wrenches the Scripture and suggests that the Lord has strands of partiality that have not been excised from His holy Character [Deuteronomy 10:17; Romans 2:11; I Peter 1:17].

Biblical theology portrays the Lord as not desiring that any should perish [II Peter 3:9] thus, John 3:16.

I sense that some of the readers are about to do 'the twist.'

 

[Pastor Larry]

Does it say that '. . . Christ Jesus came into the world, to save elected sinners, of whom I am chief' or does He say that '. . . Christ Jesus came into the world, to save sinners, of whom I am chief.'

The Lord God speaking through the Apostle Paul says one of these two phrases. Which one is it?

Calvinists say the latter, but you would have to answer for yourself.

Calvinism is an interesting and twisted quasi-theology that wrenches the Scripture and suggests that the Lord has strands of partiality that have not been excised from His holy Character [Deuteronomy 10:17; Romans 2:11; I Peter 1:17].

As we have shown before, you have it exactly backwards. In Calvinism God is not partial. He saves without respect for anything in man. In your view, God is partial towards those who are smart enough to believe. He is partial towards those who live at a time in history or in a place where they are more likely to hear the gospel. There is no way, in your theology, that God is not partial towards those in 21st century america compared to those in fifth century America. In the 21st century, there is a much greater chance to be saved because there is a much greater chance to hear. In your view, God is unfair towards those who lived in 5th century America. But of course you know that. You just don't like it.

Biblical theology portrays the Lord as not desiring that any should perish [II Peter 3:9] thus, John 3:16.

So does Calvinism.

You see Ray, you are still wrong.

[ October 29, 2005, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Christ came to save sinners as is documented throughout the Word of God. I think we all have to read I Timothy 1:15 again.

Does it say that '. . . Christ Jesus came into the world, to save elected sinners, of whom I am chief' or does He say that '. . . Christ Jesus came into the world, to save sinners, of whom I am chief.'

It says He came to save sinners -- nothing is said about "elect sinners".

What is more in 1John 4:14 "God sent His son to be the Saviour of the World"

Ray said

Biblical theology portrays the Lord as not desiring that any should perish [II Peter 3:9] thus, John 3:16.

That is true Ray.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ray Berrian]

Pastor,

Larry, with all due respect your logic does not befit a fifth grader. If the Lord only saved you out of all the rest of us out of all humankind, He would have had greater respect or recognition or favor toward you than the teeming billions that had ever lived on earth. If you have children or grandchildren, give them the illustration and have them explain the facts to you. Are you sure you ever went to college?

Another of your failed logic is you say that our view is that we were smart enough to be saved, while the non-elect were special education quality of mentality. If you knew your Bible as well as you perceive your Calvinism you would know that the Bible says that 'a wayfaring man though a FOOL, 'does not have to miss Heaven.' So me being saved has nothing to do with my level of intellect, but is your lame excuse in saying the saved ones were just smart men and women.

Another attempt of you to show yourself smart, is to say that people in our world have more exposure to the Gospel. Not necessarily so. All of the upper tier of countries in Africa is 98-99% Muslim with Indonesia being the largest Muslim nation in the world. Beyond this our school systems have poisoned American school children into believing that human beings are the product of millions of years of Evolution. Some slime mutated and became a substance that moved up the chain of matter and became a primate and through millions of years evolved into a cave man or woman. And now we have people like you and me, only my logic befits Biblical understanding.

Study some history and you will find there was always a Christian culture, that would not conform to Roman Catholicism who had to hid away in the highlands of nations or in desolate places because of their orthodox beliefs. They would not give up or be without their Holy Bible. Those Christians who wanted to stay with the system of Catholicism admittedly were willing to sit in their spiritual unenlightened state of affairs. They were unwilling to come out of the darkness of their age.

Don't blame the Lord my Savior for your lack of understanding or probably more correctly stated your rebellion against the Words of the Lord God as written in His precious Word.

You like to overlay your theory over the clarity of the clearly spoken truths of the holy Bible as Bob and others have tried to show to you, for the betterment of your own soul and those sheep who have you as their guide.

Do not mix error with truth by saying that Calvinists also believe that God does not want souls to enter Hell. If He were to elect some because of His all wise plan, He being sovereign, in the sense that you view it, by necessity of His own unrestrained will has to turn the remaining souls into the Lake of Fire. If not He would not be sovereign in Calvinism's lopsided distortions of the faith that was 'once delivered to the saints.'

I think I have pointed out at least four points of your misguided logic that has been elevated to your eyes and heart for all Calvinists who are still drinking at the fountain of medieval Roman Catholicism via the philosophical flavor of their geat saint and theologian, St. Augustine.

God save you from the concepts that you write in your posts; after awhile you might really believe them.

We understand your logic of 'elect sinners' in I Timothy 1:15. This is what made Calvin so substandard to the Word of God, because he either added or detracted from God's words to the church along with more than a tad of ungodly wisdom, logic and alleged, Divine illumination.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
If the Lord only saved you out of all the rest of us out of all humankind, He would have had greater respect or recognition or favor toward you than the teeming billions that had ever lived on earth. If you have children or grandchildren, give them the illustration and have them explain the facts to you.

Good point about "the obvious".

In fact Pastor Larry is exposing the flaw of Calvinism in showing that its doctrine of "arbitrary selection" is in fact "pure partiality" and directly contradicts the argument of God in Romans 2:11 where God says "God is NOT partial"!!

Some have supposed that a “judgment” that is impartial as Paul points to in vs 6 and 11 must “only have failing cases”. But Paul shows in vs 7 that such is not the case. The “Good News” does not require God to arbitrarily be “partial to the FEW of Matt 7” as some have supposed. Rather it allows for God to be “impartial” and to SAVE mankind on that basis!

Rom2:
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

The “Failing case”: Clearly a contrast is being introduced "but to those who are selfish" - contrasted with what? Those who repent, seek eternal glory and honor and persevere. Persevere in what?

You must be on the right path to be approved in perseveringly staying on the right path. It is obvious I know, but worth noting.

So God has now contrasted the good and the wicked, those who persevere on the right path and those who are not even on it.

We already know that in the judgment there are two classes - those that receive immortality and those that do not. If it is not clear to us by now that this chapter is dealing with both classes - we need to engage in some remedial reading comprehension.

Rom2:
9 there will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 for there is no partiality with God.

As we see - THE CONTEXT shows that God's impartial judgment RESULTS in SOME having eternal life and some getting hell based on an IMPARTIAL evaluation in the CONTEXT of Rom 2:4 "The call to repentance".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In my previous point about the way God causes Calvinists to expose the flaws of Calvinism in their own attempts to promote Calvinism (like the prophets of Baal coming together so Elijah could destroy them, or the Egyptian army willingly rushing into the sea of their own destruction) -- you may well see an argument for the Soevereignty of God AGAINST the will of man --- which is in fact an argument in favor of one of the doctrines of Calvinism.

I don't want Calvinists to think I am blind to seeing the sovereignty of God overriding the will of man -- and that case posted by Pastor Larry and responded to above is a perfect example!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Larry;

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT;
Just where is it that the Bible says Jesus death purchased redemption. Christ didn't die to purchase redemption. He died so that His blood would wash away the sins of the world. Redemption is what he did not what he died for.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Larry's coments;

Aside from "purchasing redemption" being kind of redundant, since "redemption" means "to purchase or buy," the Bible does state that Jesus died to redeem us.

Hebrews 9:15 15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Titus 2:14 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

Galatians 4:4-5 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Mike, this is the second time today you have posted something in clear contradiction of what Scripture says (or perhaps one of them might have been posted last night). Please take the time to review what Scripture says, regardless of what side you come down. It is increasingly looking like you are just being disagreeable, rather than posting substance.

Just how is it Larry that any of what you've posted contradicts what I have said in this thread? Not one single thing you've posted proves we are Chosen before the foundation of the world. Not one Larry. You just lost it on this thread. You didn't have anything to attack me for so you just made something up.

This is what I said;
"Redemption is what he did, not what he died for."
Are you saying this isn't what Christ did when He died on the cross.
Please show me just how this contradicts scripture?. Can you at least be that honest?
When we are in Him is when we are chosen.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Instead of making wild accusations why not prove why you have chosen to accuse me of being in contradiction of scripture on this thread. A very dishonest accusation at that. Christ death was the payment for our sins. I think you just want to argue any point for fear of possible agreement.

In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Larry, with all due respect your logic does not befit a fifth grader.

I agree, Ray. Your understanding is not advanced enough past the 5th grade level to benefit from Pastor Larry's logical and scriptural teaching. But don't feel bad. That is fairly common among some segments of Baptists. You are not alone.

 

[King James Bond]

Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

"Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"

For this reason they could not believe , because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them."

Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.

Now how does that show He is drawing all men to Him? That must be the reverse enlightenment process. It must be reverse draw-mosis.

Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not confess their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved praise from men more than praise from God.

Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."

Jesus did not have to come to judge the world......the entire world meaning every man, woman, and child stood condemned already.

If He saves any out of the world it is by His pure amazing grace.

Some people will not ever believe. May I ask since so many people use the "draw and enlighten" all men to come to Him is that what He was doing here?

"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them."

Sure does not sound like being blinded is much of an enlightenment to me!

Cant see, cant understand, it seems that it was made impossible for them to turn for healing.

Is it because they have free-will?

they still would not believe in him . This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

"Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? "

I would say God certainly put on a remarkably wonderful and credible display of power;

Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence

But they still would not believe......because the arm of the Lord had not been revealed to them.

They are not drawn...not enlightened...but rather held in blindness.

Sure does not sound like freewill to me if yopu are held in blindness.

Come on Arminian folks....get a grip would ya!

KJB

 

[BobRyan]

By contrast to that "story line" we have God DENYING the idea that HE is to blame for he fall of HIS CHOSEN ONES! (Yep - that would be Israel - THE CHOSEN of God).

In Romans 11 Paul “shows” the fall of the Jews from the Vine – of Christ (I am the Vine – you are the Branches) but also shows that God continues to love them and seek them EVEN though they are out of His will and in rebellion – and lost. For outside of Christ there is truly “no salvation”. But “the branches are cast into the fire” in the ultimate sense – if they ‘continue in unbelief”.

13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

Paul is looking to "MOTIVATE" the lost “individuals” among the Jews showing his own Individual willingness to trade places. He does not conclude that God will irresistible force them to be saved. Instead of using God's power to alter the will as the "means" to save them, God uses the appeal to CHOICE,
imperfect "motives" - the APPEAL is made and the hope is that some will take it.

Rom 11
15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

Clearly this is individuals rejected (as Paul was certainly NOT rejected though a Jew). And it is INDIVIDUAL Gentiles accepted (as ALL pagans were NOT considered Saints by Paul in any sense at all)

Just stating the “obvious” here but some have been avoiding this points in desperate attempts to spare the OSAS assumptions that are exposed by Romans 11.

Rom 11:17-23 - WE are grafted in to the place from which some of those who rebelled fell (as we note in Romans 11). WE are in the same place as THEY - under the ONE Gospel. (Gal 1:6)

Romans 11 points out that we are grafted into the SAME place from which the Jews fell AND that God wants to put the Jews BACK into the place from which they fell.
Not only is this a denial of OSAS it is also a denial that once you fall you can not be re-instated.

Rom 11:
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

They were even MORE compatible with God's plan than we are today. They could only FALL from such an exalted position. In Christ – the vine (John 15) the Jews fell and this is a warning to “us”? Only if OSAS is not true.

Rom 11:
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

They become a warning to US as WE are in THEIR former position.

Rom11:
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

God desires to RE-establish them WITH US in that FORMER position IN the body of Christ. (Every branch In Me that does not bear fruit is cast into the fire – John 15). Yet here we see that God is able to “graft them in again” – so they can come back IF They do not Continue in unbelief.

1 Cor 10
4 " they ALL drank from the SAME SPIRITUAL PETRA which FOLLOWED them that PETRA was CHRIST" 1Cor 10:4

Heb 4:1-2 We have had the Gospel preached to US just as They also

And yet all this does not REJECT the plan of salvation as it continually unfolds in the NT - in fact it explicitly relies upon it. Including the future events of the coming
Messiah as described in Isaiah 53. But they ALL benefit from the God who "gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does NOT exist" Rom 4:17 so that God
called Abraham the Father of many nations - while as yet he had no children.

The Cross of Christ - benefits of forgiveness already applied PRE cross.

Rom 11
24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are
the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

They were even MORE compatible with God's plan than we are today. They could only FALL from such an exalted position.

Yet God shows His CONTINUED willingness, purpose, intent and interest in "Grafting them in again". He never presents the fall of Israel as "God's fickle choice for the CHOSEN" -- rather it is "Their UNBELIEF" – it is the rebellion of the CHOSEN.

Rom11:
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Note that “you” is to the INDIVIDUAL reading the letter and – it is on an INDIVIDUAL basis that they stand IN Christ. Trying to “ignore this inconvenient detail” in an effort to save OSAS is not “exegesis” it is EISEGESIS. And this comes as a surprise to many.

-----------------------

Just when KJB was ready to blame it all on God - Paul shows that it is only THEIR UNBELIEF that prevents them and Paul shows that HE TOO is a JEW - HE IS ONE OF THEM!!

Romans 11
Israel Is Not Cast Away

1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

 

[BobRyan]

INSTEAD of God working diligently for the doom of HIS CHOSEN (as KJB promotes in his myopic Bible-context-denying interpretation above )

What does it mean for him to say that "HE CAME to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received HIM NOT" - is there EFFORT, concern, ACTION, WORK being claimed on God's part?

Let's take a closer look.

==========================================

Revew: God's Will for mankind…. Yes Really!

2Pet 3
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

In this case the "YOU" that is mentioned ARE among those that USED to be LOST but have been BENEFITED by the DELAY already so far. The texts points to the fact that GOD HIMSELF anticipates that MORE of the LOST to BENEFIT by MORE delay since that is the REASON HE GIVES for the DELAY. (Or more SEAMING delay).

God's WILL for mankind is abundantly clear here - and those who reject this truth about God must find a way to "limit the atonement" AND "limit this statement on His will".
-------------------------------------------

God expends EFFORT to SAVE them - HE SENDS them messages of warning and salvation. At GREAT cost and sacrifice.

Matt 23:
31“So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
32“Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
33“You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
34“Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36“Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Lament over Jerusalem

Matt 23
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

---------------------------------------

God's PURPOSE FOR THEM is salvation – but those who are ultimately lost reject God’s Purpose for THEM .

Even so - God shows Himself as WORKING for their salvation AND YET they turn.

Luke 7:
28 “I say to you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”
29 When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John.
30 But the Pharisees and the £lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.
31 “To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like?
32 “They are like children who sit in the market place and call to one another, and they say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not weep.’
33 For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon!’
‘The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’

=============================================================================

God WORKS to win the LOST that HE KNOWS to be those who would ultimately reject the choice for life!!

Parable of the Landowner

Matt 21:
33“Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who PLANTED A VINEYARD AND PUT A WALL AROUND IT AND DUG A WINE PRESS IN IT, AND BUILT A TOWER, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey.
34“When the harvest time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine-growers to receive his produce.
35“The vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third.
36“Again he sent another group of slaves larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them.
37“But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’
38“But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’
39“They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40“Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?”
41They said* to Him, “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.”
42Jesus said* to them, “Did you never read in the Scriptures,
‘THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;
THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD,
AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES’?

HE would have us BEG the LOST to be saved!!

2Cor 5:18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Grieving God post was recently posted on the BB board here –
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1540/2.html#000023

Calvinism trying to affirm that God really does “hate” and we should “get used to it” here –
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1547.html#000000


In 1Cor 2:16 – we are told that we have been given “the Mind of Christ”. What then is the Mind of Christ regarding love for the lost?

When the “impartial (Rom 2:11) unchanging (Mal 3:6) God” weeps and grieves over the lost - He is not simply pretending so we will be duped into "thinking" He loves them and works for their salvation just as He loves the saved and ministers to them, when in fact He cares nothing at all for our children and loved ones that are “not elect”.

God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!

Luke 19:
41When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it,
42saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.
43“For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”

Lament over Jerusalem

Matt 23

37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.

Gen 6:
5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.

Isaiah 63:So He became their Savior.
9 In all their affliction He was afflicted,
And the angel of His presence saved them;
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them,
And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled
And grieved His Holy Spirit;
Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy,
He fought against them.

ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!

Hosea 11
:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.
Though they call them to the One on high,
None at all exalts Him.
8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
How can I surrender you, O Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
My heart is turned over within Me,
All My compassions are kindled.

Ezek 18:20“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22“All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
24“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
25“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
26“When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.
27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29“But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!"

 

[King James Bond]

Bob,

Just when KJB was ready to blame it all on God

I have not blamed God for anything.

This statement of yours shows how corrupt, bent, twisted, and perverted you are.

Show me where I blamed God for anything?

Have you ever thought about false witness?

The Lord gives and the Lord takes away....wonderful is the Lord in all His ways.

If God blinds some to save some you have not proved He enlightens ALL.

It is proof He blinded some.

And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables; so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and be forgiven." (4:11-12)

Sure sounds like He enlightened everyone.

KJB

 

[King James Bond]

Bob,

And don't think I am going to read through your books, been there and done that already.

You reveal nothing new. It is the same excellent Scripture defined very poorly.

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

All of Him!

For God who commanded the light to shine in darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Now that is what I call real enlightenment!

He commands.....and people see!

He does not command.....and people remain blinded.

KJB

 

[Ray Berrian]

TCassidy,

Your sense of logic is also marked by human frailty. You assume I may be a Baptist of some kind. I know I have not revealed my denominational preference or membership in any particular denomination.

You would make a good Reformed Baptist. They believe the Devil's lies even in the face their God given sense of human logic with a Bible in their hands.

Larry's beliefs are merely one man's opinion. If he had a shrine with his image in a garden, I am sure you would take bus tours there to see it, Mr. Cassidy.

 

[Ray Berrian]

King James Bond,

If I am thinking your thoughts you are inferring that God is electing some of the Jews to Hell, from reading your post. A reference like yours is also written in the fourth Gospel chapter 12:38-41. This is typical of Calvinists who take things out of context, to patch up a sloppy theology.

Now read John 12:32-41 and you will see that Jesus said about Himself that He would 'be lifted up from the earth , and will draw only the elect to Himself.' Not so! Jesus goes on to say to the Jews believe in Me while you have the Light among your people. He also says, '. . . lest darkness come on you.' The appeal to receive Jesus was offered to all the Jews in this Scriptural setting. In verse 36 Christ desires that they will become '. . . the children of Light.'

John says that even having seen the many miracles the Jews refused to believe. If I would have been there and saw on of Jesus, miracles I would have been first to admit and believe that Jesus was Lord. The above words are the Biblical and more Arminian truth. Now, Mr. Bond, after all that Jesus said above, He now says because of their refusal to receive Me, I will blind their eyes, and hardent their heart.

We agree that He has the right to do this since they had every opportunity to welcome Jesus as their Messiah.

And since you like Isaiah you need to read, Isaiah 63:10 which teaches 'Resistible Grace.' Also, in Isaiah 65:2 you will see the Lord opening His arms to all Jewish people and again in verse 12 where it says that 'He called and they would not answer.' The truth is they did hear the Lord but they refused to even answer Him. The Lord spake and they refused to hear, plus they wilfully did evil in the eyes of the Lord of holiness. They chose sin and the Word says, the Lord hated that sin.

Scripture in the O.T. and the N.T. never even hints that the Lord autocratically selects some for Hell and some for Heaven. This is antithetical to God's will toward all sinners. His love is made manifest by His death on the Cross [John 3:16].

Bite down on this truth especially you who have inhaled Calvinism as though it were Divine truth. And please, do not choke on the 'meat of the Word' [Hebrews 5:12].

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Bite down on this truth especially you who have inhaled Calvinism as though it were Divine truth. And please, do not choke on the 'meat of the Word' [Hebrews 5:12].

Thanks, Ray, I can always count on you to cheer me up.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
TCassidy,

Your sense of logic is also marked by human frailty. You assume I may be a Baptist of some kind. I know I have not revealed my denominational preference or membership in any particular denomination.

You would make a good Reformed Baptist. They believe the Devil's lies even in the face their God given sense of human logic with a Bible in their hands.

Larry's beliefs are merely one man's opinion. If he had a shrine with his image in a garden, I am sure you would take bus tours there to see it, Mr. Cassidy.

Once again you have proven yourself unable to honestly discuss the issue and have, once again, resorted to vicious lies, hate mongering and false accusations of idolatry. How pitiful. Have you no conscience?