Who did Christ die for?

Since you have accepted the Limited Atonement, which states Jesus died only for a select group of sinners; how do you reconcile that with the teaching of 1 John 2:2, which very plainly states, Jesus died for the sins of the whole world?

“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world,” (1 John 2:2).
​

The doctrine of election is taught in Scripture. Calvinism’s UNCONDITIONAL Election, however, is not.

It might be helpful for all readers to review some of the articles in this series by George Zeller.

Visit- The Dangers of Reformed Theology

Of special interest read The Danger of Teaching That Christ Died Only for the Elect

I link guests at my blog to Zeller’s work in this area.


LM

 

All of them are true. We are not to love the world, God does love the world that is why He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. It is not until after the cross that the door was opened to the world for all men. After Jesus is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself and we are His messenger.

Romans 10:
11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[Isaiah 28:16] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[Joel 2:32]

14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"[Isaiah 52:7]

Then they have two roads to follow to believe and be saved or not and be condemned. God loved Jacob and hates Esau, and now He loved the world that He sent His Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

This site grossly misrepresents reformed theology.

 

Unbelievable how much time and energy is wasted on a subject that is so simple!

 

:thumbs:

In short - your stuck :laugh:

I answered your question so now who is dodging

 

True but it does much the same as Reformed/Calvinists and gives a one sided rendering against what they believe is incorrect.

IOW - They do not specifically set out to do a side by side analysis but that this is the truth, and let me tell you what the other side thinks they believe.

So although they may give an accurate depiction of their own view, they rarely give an accurate depiction of the others. Much like the BB.

 

LOL!! I rank that site just about even with a site that would warn people about the danger of being conquered by Martians.

 

1. On one hand, there are those who agree to disagree on Calvinism, and on the other hand, there are those who are anti-Calvinisim,

2. And Npetreley, you have given one of the BEST responses to anti-Calvinism I've ever read.

Keep it up, my brother. :thumbs:

 

The so-called "extreme Calvinists" are instead really mainstream Reformed men and women . Paul Reiter and others on that site would have their definition of Calvinists changed to those who are in actuality Arminians . A ready example is Norm Geisler who calls himself a "moderate Calvinist" . In reality he is as Arminian as they come . Charles Spurgeon would qualify as an "extreme Calvinist" in their view . It reminds me of some Fundamentalists who call Calvinists who believe in the 5 points -- hyper-Calvinists . Let Calvinists define what Calvinists believe , not synergists .

 

Rippon,

But they would not allow us to define our position. They keep telling us WHAT we believe.

 

I'm sorry...I must have missed it.

Please show where any one addressed this....

And where did any one address this...

Maybe you can point-out where someone addressed this...

And this....

You said..."The fixation of His love is determinded by man acceptance of God and His truth,"

If I stop love God....He will stop loving me?
If I no longer want to be saved...God will let me go???

Allan, I know you do not believe this....so why say it? Man actions do not change Gods love.

Peter denied Christ, and I feel Christ did not give up on Peter but saved him

Paul want about killing believers....and God saved Him.

Joe denies there is a God and God does not blind Joe and speak to him from heaven as he did Paul, but gives Joe up.

Some men God runs down, beats them over the head..and saves them.

Others...He gives up.

why?

***********************
Back to the verses.....


No answer here............

 

BINGO!!!!!

"World" means many things. It does not always mean..."all of mankind".

Webdog said it.....so you MUST believe it.

 

OK...

Each and every person of the earth was not talking about the Rome believers, but everywhere Paul went, people asked about Rome believers.

1000 years before this time people were not talking about the believers of Rome. How could they? Were they not part of the whole world?

Today some do not even know God, and have never read the Bible, do you feel they talk about the Rome believers of Pauls day?

 

It is clear why you error, if you go by that site.

Now that many Calvinist have told you this site is wrong, will you remove it from your blog? It is my guess you will believe the non-Cals words over the Calvinist words.

One would think that if you want to know what Calvinist believe...you would ask a Calvinist, not a non-Calvinist.

 

It pertained to all of them in general, since your general question was about God's love, and does it end, and what about those God's hates, et.. So yeah, I guess you did miss it.

I did not say it, YOU did, and as incorrectly as you ever do.
I did not once declare in any manner of imagination, that once Gods love has been fixated upon a person, and the person stopped loving God, that God would abandon them. You were not asking about loosing ones salvation, but does God stop loving (or start) and why?

And I have set forth my answer already.

God only saves those who will believe and if they will not, He gives them over, not gives up (as if they bested Him). But again, this is typical.

 

Wednesday Morning Musings

To All:

If you have little experience dealing with the type of Calvinists you are reading at this board, you are getting a valuable lesson.

The Calvinist will reject any interpretation of Scripture that does not validate their Calvinistic theology. They filter and view the Bible through their Calvinistic (TULIP) presuppositions.

“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

This is why when, for example, you post 1 John 2:2 with its meaning clear, and it devastation of the Limited Atonement, the verse must be reinterpreted and twisted out of shape to keep Calvinism's Limited Atonement in tact.

If an article/book is not supportive Calvinism it and the writer must be discredited. This is why they cry foul over George Zeller’s articles. Those articles expose the dangers of Calvinistic theology and the Calvinists here don’t like it.

You will read these men crying, "you don't understand us, you can't understand Calvinism, you are creating a straw man." If you will not agree with them and dare to publicly object to their Calvinistic views, you will have your academics and ability to learn questioned. Some of these Calvinists are on a crusade to spread their view and they will not tolerate a challenge.

No one is born again as a Calvinist, it has to be introduced and it is often introduced incrementally. Most believers, if they are introduced to the 5 points just as they are, will reject them because they are inconsistent with Scripture. Even new believers will inherently recognize there is something odd about the five points. There is much twisting and reinterpretation of Scripture that has to be done to come to the conclusions of Calvinism.

Many who are Calvinistic in their theology reject one or more of the five points. That is especially true of the Limited Atonement. Therefore, the five pointers will say of these who reject LA that they are not true Calvinists.

Regrettably in recent years there has been a resurgence of Calvinism. The debate over Calvinism is never going to be settled this side of Heaven. While we wait for that day it is best to proclaim the truth and protect the Church from the spread and dangers of Calvinistic theology.

The Dangers of Reformed Theology are real and these articles are a must read for any one with genuine concerns about Calvinism. Don’t listen to the Calvinist who cries foul. If they had access to the teaching, such as you will find in those articles, they might not have succumbed to Calvinistic teaching.


LM

 

:laugh: :laugh: I noticed James you had to quickly take the verse which Lou used to substitute you own.

The verse he used stated not just 'world' but the 'whole world' and IF indeed you want to do some real contending for truth. Let us look at the phrase in light of how the AUTHOR used it CONSISTANTLY. I think he did a pretty good job of establishing EXACTLY what he meant.
If we can determine what John's meaning of the 'whole world' is based on his own writtings, it will be able to tell us whos sins the propitiation of Christ was for - not ours ONLY, but the sins of the 'whole world'.

This way we can dispence with the smoke and mirror tactics of look at this OTHER verse which is kinda but not really like it to dispove it. This way we can see exactly what the writter meant..

So how about? Would you care to post every time John used the term 'whole world' so we can see how he consistantly used it
Or should I do it AGAIN.

 

Again, again!

 

Loved

God loved the world that He sent his Son, not in the other ways you are making God loved the world or trying to say other are.

He has given the world a hope, but He is only going to save whosoever believes.

 

...or rather you agree, so it MUST be truth!!