Who Did Jesus Christ Say He Came To Save?

[Saved-By-Grace]

Your comment brings up an important detail about Atonement -- Calvinists don't understand the Bible definition of Atonement as defined by God in the Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" where BOTH the work of Christ as the "Lord's Goat" - the LAMB of God -- and ALSO the work of Christ as High Priest (The MAIN POINT according to Hebrews 8:1) is required to satisfy the Bible's broad-scope meaning for Atonement.

1 John 2:2 "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" NIV

Thus "the Atoning Sacrifice" completed at the cross - but the full Leviticus 16 scope for the "Term" that we call "Atonement" must include BOTH the work of Christ as sin offering (Atoning sacrifice) AND the work of Christ as High Priest.

This not-so-subtle detail gets totally lost in all the story-telling of Calvinism.

And it is the irrefutable solution for the Arminian position on the subject of atonement.

Calvinism only survives the key Bible detail .. by ignoring it whenever it comes up.

As I have said before, they only see what they want to. They mock and argue that we don't understand the languages, and when presented with evidence from Greek scholars, they have no answer, but, instead of apology, they ignore the truth.

 

[The Archangel]

You can check out Dr Samuel Green's, Handbook to the Grammar of the Greek Testament, pages 320-323, and Dr George Winer's A Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament Greek, pages 358-365, both available on archive.org, and then come back and show me that I am wrong.

Why would I need to do that? You seem not to realize that I already know Greek. I'm not reading books to try and learn it. Also, you seem not to understand that in my pointing out your calling the Greek subjunctive "conditional," I have already proven you wrong.

You still cannot respond to what Jesus and Paul say in John 5 and Romans 2?

Seriously, you need to learn the difference between "Cannot" and "Will not."

The Archangel

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Why would I need to do that? You seem not to realize that I already know Greek. I'm not reading books to try and learn it. Also, you seem not to understand that in my pointing out your calling the Greek subjunctive "conditional," I have already proven you wrong.

So are you saying that you learnt NT Greek without the aid of any books? If you did, then you are the first! Do you not check word usage in grammars and meanings in lexicons? If you look at the two Greek scholars that I refer to, and then go back to what I have written, you will see that there is no objection in the references that I quote, from the Greek grammar. Surely you don't think that you know better than these two standard Greek works?

Seriously, you need to learn the difference between "Cannot" and "Will not."

You will not, because you cannot, as what it says is what it means and that is exactly what I have written on my OP.

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

You will not, because you cannot, as what it says is what it means and that is exactly what I have written on my OP.

First you need to use the quote feature properly so that you are not putting words into my mouth. Second, you should not assume things you cannot possibly know or prove. I choose not to completely dismantle your so-called argument because I simply have better things to do than explain biblical theology, context, Greek, etc. to you because you've demonstrated you have no intention or inclination to listen or learn.

The Archangel

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

First you need to use the quote feature properly so that you are not putting words into my mouth. Second, you should not assume things you cannot possibly know or prove. I choose not to completely dismantle your so-called argument because I simply have better things to do than explain biblical theology, context, Greek, etc. to you because you've demonstrated you have no intention or inclination to listen or learn.

The Archangel

 

[BobRyan]

Saved-By-Grace said: ↑
There are some who admit that the Lord Jesus Christ "died" for the whole human race, in some special way, but deny that this equates to the actual Atonement that Jesus made through His death on the cross. This is no more than "splitting hairs", as the death of Jesus Christ IS His Atonement for the sins of the whole human race. I have also shown from 1 John 2:2, where John writes of Jesus, "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.". .

Your comment brings up an important detail about Atonement -- Calvinists don't understand the Bible definition of Atonement as defined by God in the Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" where BOTH the work of Christ as the "Lord's Goat" - the LAMB of God -- and ALSO the work of Christ as High Priest (The MAIN POINT according to Hebrews 8:1) is required to satisfy the Bible's broad-scope meaning for Atonement.

1 John 2:2 "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" NIV

Thus "the Atoning Sacrifice" completed at the cross - but the full Leviticus 16 scope for the "Term" that we call "Atonement" must include BOTH the work of Christ as sin offering (Atoning sacrifice) AND the work of Christ as High Priest.

This not-so-subtle detail gets totally lost in all the story-telling of Calvinism.

And it is the irrefutable solution for the Arminian position on the subject of atonement.

Calvinism only survives the key Bible detail .. by ignoring it whenever it comes up.

As I have said before, they only see what they want to. They mock and argue that we don't understand the languages, and when presented with evidence from Greek scholars, they have no answer, but, instead of apology, they ignore the truth.

Indeed - lots of time for vitriol -- and not much for actually looking at the texts that refute their calvinism

 

[FollowTheWay]

I read this thread and can't find anyone answering the question poses in the thread title. Who did Jesus say he came to save? I see only a lot of nit-picking on the interpretation of the tense of the Greek verbs.

 

[Iconoclast]

I read this thread and can't find anyone answering the question poses in the thread title. Who did Jesus say he came to save? I see only a lot of nit-picking on the interpretation of the tense of the Greek verbs.

Jesus said he laid down His life for THE SHEEP.Jn10

 

[Iconoclast]

Indeed - lots of time for vitriol -- and not much for actually looking at the texts that refute their calvinism

Proverbs 7:7
And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding,

 

[Iconoclast]

John 3:16 "God so loved the World... yes really"
Matthew 11 "come unto Me ALL who are weary and heavy laden... yes really"
1 John 4:14 "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD...yes really"
1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD...yes really"

Some forms of Calvinism view all that as the Bible's "hyperbole" and marketing hype. But for the rest of us it is scripture, it is truth, it is the Word of God. Just like Exodus 20:11

Proverbs 7:7
And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding,

 

[Iconoclast]

so also in English... you are making a distinction without a difference in the point being made above.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

Proverbs 7:7
And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding,

 

[Iconoclast]

Your comment brings up an important detail about Atonement -- Calvinists don't understand the Bible definition of Atonement as defined by God in the Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" where BOTH the work of Christ as the "Lord's Goat" - the LAMB of God -- and ALSO the work of Christ as High Priest (The MAIN POINT according to Hebrews 8:1) is required to satisfy the Bible's broad-scope meaning for Atonement.

1 John 2:2 "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" NIV

Thus "the Atoning Sacrifice" completed at the cross - but the full Leviticus 16 scope for the "Term" that we call "Atonement" must include BOTH the work of Christ as sin offering (Atoning sacrifice) AND the work of Christ as High Priest.

This not-so-subtle detail gets totally lost in all the story-telling of Calvinism.

And it is the irrefutable solution for the Arminian position on the subject of atonement.

Calvinism only survives the key Bible detail .. by ignoring it whenever it comes up.

Proverbs 7:7
And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding,

 

[BobRyan]

-- Calvinists don't understand the Bible definition of Atonement as defined by God in the Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" where BOTH the work of Christ as the "Lord's Goat" - the LAMB of God -- and ALSO the work of Christ as High Priest (The MAIN POINT according to Hebrews 8:1) is required to satisfy the Bible's broad-scope meaning for Atonement.

1 John 2:2 "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" NIV

Thus "the Atoning Sacrifice" completed at the cross - but the full Leviticus 16 scope for the "Term" that we call "Atonement" must include BOTH the work of Christ as sin offering (Atoning sacrifice) AND the work of Christ as High Priest.

This not-so-subtle detail gets totally lost in all the story-telling of Calvinism.

And it is the irrefutable solution for the Arminian position on the subject of atonement.

Calvinism only survives the key Bible detail .. by ignoring it whenever it comes up.

Proverbs 7:7
And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding,

No end to the ad hominem you can get from some Calvinists - as soon as they see scripture that refutes their preference

 

[BobRyan]

John 3:16 "God so loved the World... yes really"
Matthew 11 "come unto Me ALL who are weary and heavy laden... yes really"
1 John 4:14 "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD...yes really"
1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD...yes really"

Some forms of Calvinism view all that as the Bible's "hyperbole" and marketing hype. But for the rest of us it is scripture, it is truth, it is the Word of God. Just like Exodus 20:11

Proverbs 7:7
And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding,

No end to the ad hominem you can get from some Calvinists - as soon as they see scripture that refutes their preference

 

[BobRyan]

John 3:16 "God so loved the World... yes really"
Matthew 11 "come unto Me ALL who are weary and heavy laden... yes really"
1 John 4:14 "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD...yes really"
1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD...yes really"

Some forms of Calvinism view all that as the Bible's "hyperbole" and marketing hype. But for the rest of us it is scripture, it is truth, it is the Word of God. Just like Exodus 20:11

I read this thread and can't find anyone answering the question poses in the thread title. Who did Jesus say he came to save? I see only a lot of nit-picking on the interpretation of the tense of the Greek verbs.

There is a great deal of ad hominem, misdirection, smoke-and-mirrors when some Calvinists post - but I would still argue that the texts listed above apply to the OP

 

[FollowTheWay]

Jesus said he laid down His life for THE SHEEP.Jn10

No argument there. Is the question who are His sheep? Calvinist issue? Status of the Jews?

 

[Iconoclast]

No argument there. Is the question who are His sheep? Calvinist issue? Status of the Jews?

The sheep are all the Father gave to Him.jn6:37, Hebrews2:11-16

Status of the Jews?]

45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

 

[Reformed]

You see... you can't claim to "know Greek" just because you clumsily wield a parsing tool and lexicon while reading what others say about the Greek text. You actually have to roll up your sleeves and work the language. You might know about Greek, but you have yet do demonstrate that you "know" Greek.

The Archangel

He would be better off just exiting the thread, but like a moth to the flame, he cannot help himself. Thank you for exposing his ignorance of koine grammar.



Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

He would be better off just exiting the thread, but like a moth to the flame, he cannot help himself. Thank you for exposing his ignorance of koine grammar.



Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yawn... Go chase your windmills...

The Archangel

Don Q actually