Who Did Jesus Christ Say He Came To Save?

[37818]

" Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [It is] God that justifieth.
34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us." ( Romans 8:33-37 )



Yes, He is.



Absolutely.



It wasn't spilt in vain.
His blood did what it was supposed to do...cleanse His sheep.
He finished His work, and atonement was made for His people.

Who condemns the lost? (Romans 8:34). I hold the view Christ died for all (2 Corinthians 5:14; Ephesians 2:1-2; Romans 3:11).
". . . or else to be shed for them only that they might be deeper damned?" -- John Owen, To The Reader, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ.

 

[37818]

Both bodies last forever....

". . . destroy both soul and body in hell. . . ." -- Matthew 10:28.

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus who paid their sins becomes their Judge by reason He had paid for their sins. John 15:6. Revelation 3:5. Revelation 20:15. Revelation 21:7-8. John 5:22.

He is still the Judge over those whom sins he did not die to atone for though!

 

[Yeshua1]

" Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [It is] God that justifieth.
34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us." ( Romans 8:33-37 )



Yes, He is.



Absolutely.



It wasn't spilt in vain.
His blood did what it was supposed to do...cleanse His sheep.
He finished His work, and atonement was made for His people.

Big difference between Calvinists and non cals on this issue, as we hold that the death of jesus indeed saved some, nons see it as potentially saving all, but none assured saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

". . . destroy both soul and body in hell. . . ." -- Matthew 10:28.

Destruction/destroyed in the Greek does not connote end of existing, but of being wreaked and ruined!

 

[Dave G]

Who condemns the lost? (Romans 8:34). I hold the view Christ died for all (2 Corinthians 5:14; Ephesians 2:1-2; Romans 3:11).

Christ condemns the lost, as He is their Judge:

" For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad." ( 2 Corinthians 5:10 )

" on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus." ( Romans 2:16 )

" When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left." ( Matthew 25:31-33 )

". . . destroy both soul and body in hell. . . ." -- Matthew 10:28.

" in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day." ( 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 )

" Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" ( Matthew 25:41 )

" Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." ( Mark 9:48 )

Worm:
"a weak or despicable person (used as a general term of contempt)."
"a human being who is an object of contempt, loathing, or pity : wretch"

Destruction/destroyed in the Greek does not connote end of existing, but of being wreaked and ruined!

In this case, I don't think the Greek is even needed, as other passages shed light on how long that destruction lasts.

 

[Dave G]

I hold the view Christ died for all (2 Corinthians 5:14; Ephesians 2:1-2; Romans 3:11).

" For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 and [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more.
17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he] is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." ( 2 Corinthians 5:14-19 )

Who are the "we", "us", "world", "them" and "any man" referring to?

" And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
6 and hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
7 that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:1-10 )

Who are the "you", "ye", "we", "us" and "yourselves" referring to?

Lastly, did you mean Romans 5:11?

" And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."

 

[37818]

" For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 and [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more.
17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he] is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." ( 2 Corinthians 5:14-19 )

Who are the "we", "us", "world", "them" and "any man" referring to?

" And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
6 and hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
7 that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:1-10 )

Who are the "you", "ye", "we", "us" and "yourselves" referring to?

Lastly, did you mean Romans 5:11?

" And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."

Yes, Christ in dying for the lost did so specifically to secure redemption for His elect (Titus 1:2; Ephesians 1:4). But also to be Lord in His humanity (Psalms 110:1; Romans 14:9). As Creator He did not need tp do this (John 1:3; Psalms 24:1; John 1:10).

 

[Dave G]

Yes, Christ in dying for the lost did so specifically to secure redemption for His elect (Titus 1:2; Ephesians 1:4). But also to be Lord in His humanity (Psalms 110:1; Romans 14:9). As Creator He did not need tp do this (John 1:3; Psalms 24:1; John 1:10).

I once believed very similar to you.

 

[37818]

I once believed very similar to you.

Two things. First, what was it you discovered not to be true and secondly why? What truth had you come to know?

 

[Dave G]

For a short time I was what one would call an "Amyraldian"...I believed in "Unconditional Election", but not "Particular Redemption" in the TULIP sense.

Some would have called me a "4 point Calvinist".

First, what was it you discovered not to be true

That God the Father sent His Son to die for each and every member of mankind.

What truth had you come to know?

That He sent His Son to die for His children's sins.

One day it just "clicked", while I was tallying up all the passages that support a definite atonement for Christ's sheep, and all the passages that seemed to support a general atonement ( by the way, there are far less that appear to support a general one, that I can see ).

A friend and I sat down and put them in opposing columns on a sheet of paper, and read through all of them.
There were "sticking points", so we sat the issue aside for some years, coming back to it recently.


One of the passages that kept me on the fence, was this one:

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." ( 1 Timothy 4:10 )

One day I was reading along, and it hit me..." Jesus Christ is the Deliverer ( in the earthly sense ) of all men." ...and my mind went back to the Psalms:

" Fools because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, are afflicted.
18 Their soul abhorreth all manner of meat; and they draw near unto the gates of death.
19 Then they cry unto the Lord in their trouble, [and] he saveth them out of their distresses." ( Psalms 107:17-19 )

He truly is merciful, in this life, even to those who are unrepentant...He delivers some out of their distress to show His mercy to them, even though in the hardness of their hearts, they will never truly repent.

" They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters;
24 these see the works of the Lord, and his wonders in the deep.
25 For he commandeth, and raiseth the stormy wind, which lifteth up the waves thereof.
26 They mount up to the heaven, they go down again to the depths: their soul is melted because of trouble.
27 They reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man, and are at their wits’ end.
28 Then they cry unto the Lord in their trouble, and he bringeth them out of their distresses.
29 He maketh the storm a calm, so that the waves thereof are still.
30 Then are they glad because they be quiet; so he bringeth them unto their desired haven." ( Psalms 107:23-30 )

Again, same thing.

 

[37818]

For a short time I was what one would call an "Amyraldian"...I believed in "Unconditional Election", but not "Particular Redemption" in the TULIP sense.

Some would have called me a "4 point Calvinist".



That God the Father sent His Son to die for each and every member of mankind.



That He sent His Son to die for His children's sins.

One day it just "clicked", while I was tallying up all the passages that support a definite atonement for Christ's sheep, and all the passages that seemed to support a general atonement ( by the way, there are far less that appear to support a general one, that I can see ).

A friend and I sat down and put them in opposing columns on a sheet of paper, and read through all of them.
There were "sticking points", so we sat the issue aside for some years, coming back to it recently.


One of the passages that kept me on the fence, was this one:

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." ( 1 Timothy 4:10 )

One day I was reading along, and it hit me..." Jesus Christ is the Deliverer ( in the earthly sense ) of all men." ...and my mind went back to the Psalms:

" Fools because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, are afflicted.
18 Their soul abhorreth all manner of meat; and they draw near unto the gates of death.
19 Then they cry unto the Lord in their trouble, [and] he saveth them out of their distresses." ( Psalms 107:17-19 )

He truly is merciful, in this life, even to those who are unrepentant...He delivers some out of their distress to show His mercy to them, even though in the hardness of their hearts, they will never truly repent.

" They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters;
24 these see the works of the Lord, and his wonders in the deep.
25 For he commandeth, and raiseth the stormy wind, which lifteth up the waves thereof.
26 They mount up to the heaven, they go down again to the depths: their soul is melted because of trouble.
27 They reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man, and are at their wits’ end.
28 Then they cry unto the Lord in their trouble, and he bringeth them out of their distresses.
29 He maketh the storm a calm, so that the waves thereof are still.
30 Then are they glad because they be quiet; so he bringeth them unto their desired haven." ( Psalms 107:23-30 )

Again, same thing.

Thank you. I agree that Christ only secured salvation for his elect. Titus 1:2; Ephesians 1:4.

What Biblically do you understand as to why I then also believe in a general redemption?

Note Exodus 32:32-33; Psalms 69:27-28; Revelation 3:5.

 

[Dave G]

What Biblically do you understand as to why I then also believe in a general redemption?

Note Exodus 32:32-33; Psalms 69:27-28; Revelation 3:5.

The Books:


Let's take a look, together, at the passages you've listed above:

" Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin—; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book." ( Exodus 32:32-33 )

An interesting passage, and one that once made me wonder about the Lord's books ( plural, please see Daniel 7:10, Revelation 20:12 ). I'd like to widen it a bit to either side with more of the text:

" And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the Lord; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
31 And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin—; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
34 Therefore now go, lead the people unto [the place] of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.
35 And the Lord plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made." ( Exodus 32:30-35 )

The first thing that catches my attention is verse 30, where Moses tells the people that they have sinned a great sin, and Moses returns to the Lord on Mount Sinai, if perhaps to make an atonement for it.

The next thing I see is Moses acknowledging that fact, to the Lord.

Then I see Moses asking the Lord to forgive them for making gods of gold...and if not, to blot him out of the book which the Lord had written.
Which book?
There are many ( Daniel 7:10, Revelation 20:12 ).
From my perspective, it's easy to assume that he means the Book of Life... but there is more than one book that the Lord has written.

After that, I see the Lord telling Moses that whosoever has sinned against Him, He will blot out of His book.

STOP.

To me, the context of the "whosoever has sinned against Him" is all those who made gods of gold at the foot of Mount Sinai, and the Lord is telling Moses that they will be blotted out of His book.
Again, which book?

As I see it, it's all too easy to assume that both Moses and the Lord are referring to the Book of Life, when there are more than one book.
Also, if it were a matter of all men sinning against Him and the Lord blotting whosoever has sinned against Him out of His book, then no one would be written in the Book of Life.
Why?

" For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God".

Must be another book, because the context doesn't warrant Him talking about the Book of Life.

Part Two, next.

 

[Dave G]

The Books:

So far, I see a problem in assuming that the book spoken of in Exodus 32 is the Book of Life.

Here's some more as to why I don't think it is, and it comes around to the all-important question:
Can a persons name be blotted out of the Book of Life?
Revelation 3:5 seems to say so, if taken all by itself.

Loss of salvation advocates ( "Arminians" / "Semi-Pelagians" ) think so... but I don't.
Why?

1) We know that whosoever is not found written in the Book of Life will be thrown into the Lake of Fire ( Revelation 20:15 ).
2) We know that according to God's word, Jesus Christ will lose none of His sheep ( John 6:39-40, John 6:44, 1 Peter 1:5 ), they will be raised up at the last day and they are kept by the power of God.
Therefore, if one of Christ's sheep could be blotted out of the Book of Life, then He would be lying in many parts of His word.
3) We know that according to God's word, people were written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world ( Revelation 13:8 )

" And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
It doesn't say "were not written", it says ARE not written...present tense.
Those whose names ARE written, will not worship the beast.

Now for the capstone, in my opinion:

" The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." ( Revelation 17:8 )

Those who worship the beast never had their names written in the Book of Life.
Their names WERE NOT written.

4) We know that Jesus told His disciples to rejoice, because their names ARE written in Heaven...in the Book of Life ( Luke 10:20 )

How does one get their name written in the Book of Life?
All my life I've heard things like, "There's a new name written down in Glory" and "when a person believes, their name is written in the Book of Life".

Guess what....the Bible doesn't say how.
All it says, are that some people were written, and some people ARE written.
And some people aren't.
It never says how one gets their name written.

It's one of those "fill in the blanks" that none of my pastors was ever able to answer with Scripture, either.
Rule number one in dealing with God's word:

Never assume anything.



Part Three, next.

 

[Dave G]

The Books:

" Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." ( Psalm 69:28 )

Let's try to unravel this, would be my suggestion.
What is this book, above?

" May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous." ( Psalms 69:28, NASB )

The NASB seems to think it's the Book of Life, not the Book of the Living ( those whose names are written in a book of those who are living on earth and draw the breath of life ).
That's why I don't use it, among many other things I see as having contradictions, when compared to the AV.
With respect, a person couldn't give me an NASB; I'd probably donate it to a library or something.

Now, is there a book of all those who are living, get blotted out after dying, and end up with their names either in the Book of Life, or not in it?
That is my belief.
Careful examination of Scripture leads me to see that there are many books, and the one being spoken of in both Exodus 32 and Psalms 69 is not the Book of Life, but the Book of the Living.
Why?
The language.


But what about Revelation 3:5?
None of God's saints will be blotted out of the Book of Life, even though the language seems to imply that it can happen.
Why?
Jesus will lose none of His sheep ( John 3:16, John 5:24, John 6:39-40, John 6:44, John 10:28-29 ).

So, questions that have to be answered from Scripture, if a person's name could be blotted out of the Book of Life:

1) How does one get their name blotted out?
It makes Jesus Christ a liar if one is a sheep and then He blots out their name.
Do they have their names written, and they are not sheep?
I'll need someone to provide Scripture that declares that to convince me...not that implies it.

2) How does one get their name written?
If based on belief, then it makes God a liar if a person's name is written, and they get thrown into the Lake of Fire while truly believing on Christ for the forgiveness of their sins.
It also makes God a liar if a person genuinely believes, and does not have everlasting life.


At the end of the day, Moses is asking God to kill him if God will not forgive His people Israel for making gods of gold.
Moses is making intercession for them...and it wasn't the first time Moses did this.



Can one get their name written in the Book of Life and then have it erased?
No.
Because only God's children can have their name written in the Book of Life.

" but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel." ( Hebrews 12:22-24 )

If you can show me Scripture that point-blank says that everyone's name ( both saved and unsaved ) are written in the Book of Life, and then someone can do something to get it erased, then I'll go with your theory.
But until then, to me it's just a theory...if that is what you are suggesting.

I see that everyone's name is written in the Book of the Living...an entirely different book, and that at the end of their allotted days, God blots their names out of it.

However, there's not much to go on in either case, is there?
On the one side, precious little.
On the other, implication based on perhaps one verse that I can see.





May God bless you.

 

[37818]

The Books:

" Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." ( Psalm 69:28 )

Let's try to unravel this, would be my suggestion.
What is this book, above?

" May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous." ( Psalms 69:28, NASB )

The NASB seems to think it's the Book of Life, not the Book of the Living ( those whose names are written in a book of those who are living on earth and draw the breath of life ).
That's why I don't use it, among many other things I see as having contradictions, when compared to the AV.
With respect, a person couldn't give me an NASB; I'd probably donate it to a library or something.

Now, is there a book of all those who are living, get blotted out after dying, and end up with their names either in the Book of Life, or not in it?
That is my belief.
Careful examination of Scripture leads me to see that there are many books, and the one being spoken of in both Exodus 32 and Psalms 69 is not the Book of Life, but the Book of the Living.
Why?
The language.


But what about Revelation 3:5?
None of God's saints will be blotted out of the Book of Life, even though the language seems to imply that it can happen.
Why?
Jesus will lose none of His sheep ( John 3:16, John 5:24, John 6:39-40, John 6:44, John 10:28-29 ).

So, questions that have to be answered from Scripture, if a person's name could be blotted out of the Book of Life:

1) How does one get their name blotted out?
It makes Jesus Christ a liar if one is a sheep and then He blots out their name.
Do they have their names written, and they are not sheep?
I'll need someone to provide Scripture that declares that to convince me...not that implies it.

2) How does one get their name written?
If based on belief, then it makes God a liar if a person's name is written, and they get thrown into the Lake of Fire while truly believing on Christ for the forgiveness of their sins.
It also makes God a liar if a person genuinely believes, and does not have everlasting life.


At the end of the day, Moses is asking God to kill him if God will not forgive His people Israel for making gods of gold.
Moses is making intercession for them...and it wasn't the first time Moses did this.



Can one get their name written in the Book of Life and then have it erased?
No.
Because only God's children can have their name written in the Book of Life.

" but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel." ( Hebrews 12:22-24 )

If you can show me Scripture that point-blank says that everyone's name ( both saved and unsaved ) are written in the Book of Life, and then someone can do something to get it erased, then I'll go with your theory.
But until then, to me it's just a theory...if that is what you are suggesting.

I see that everyone's name is written in the Book of the Living...an entirely different book, and that at the end of their allotted days, God blots their names out of it.

However, there's not much to go on in either case, is there?
On the one side, precious little.
On the other, implication based on perhaps one verse that I can see.





May God bless you.

For those three references there are three views. What the three references have uniquely in common is the blotting out. The two Hebrew references because of sin. And the New Testament reference the promise not in any way to be blotted out, providing eternal security for the believer.

 

[Dave G]

And the New Testament reference the promise not in any way tp be blotted out, providing eternal security for the believer.

That's the one I hold to.

May God's blessings be upon you, sir.