Who Has Part in The First Resurrection?

[DHK]

Satan has only the power that God allows him to have. Believing that God is not Sovereign over His Creation is a pathetic understanding of God.

God in his sovereignty has allowed Satan to be the "god of this world."
What do you think this verse means?

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Powers? Rulers of the darkness of this world? Spiritual wickedness in 'high places'?
Satan is the god of this world, and obviously more.

 

[OldRegular]

So, charging me with contradicting Scripture, because I don't like the word "rapture", is off limits.

You got it right there prophet!

*************************************************

Actually, although the word Trinity does not appear in Scripture, the Triune Nature of God can readily be established by Scripture.

That cannot be said of the so-called Rapture or the "snatching away" of the Church. There is not a single verse of Scripture or a collection of Scripture that establishes a pre-trib "snatching away" of the Church. The Church will be on earth until the visible Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

After the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, which is the First Resurrection and only resurrection to date we have the following:

Matthew 28:16-20
16. Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

At that time the eleven disciples constituted the Church in its New Covenant form. Jesus Christ makes two essential points to the Church

1. All power is given unto Him in heaven and in earth. For those who are confused about who reigns over God's creation.

2. and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. A clear an unequivocal promise that He will be with His Church until the end of the world. And not the Church "snatched out" of the world but a Church teaching and baptizing! This is completely consistent with the Promise of Jesus Christ when He revealed the Church in its New Covenant form:

Matthew 16:15-18
15. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The gates of hell, hades, the grave, whatever. Nothing will ever prevail against the Church of Jesus the Messiah, the Christ!

Strange isn't it that the Gospel "some claim is written for the Jews" is the Gospel that records these two significant Promises of Jesus Christ, Jesus the Messiah: Matthew 28:16-20 and Matthew 16:15-18.

And then there is this from the Book of Revelation:

Revelation 22:16. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

Strange isn't that Jesus Christ would testify to His churches those things written in the Book of Revelation when they supposedly have nothing to do with the Churches?

 

[DHK]

Actually, although the word Trinity does not appear in Scripture, the Triune Nature of God can readily be established by Scripture.

That cannot be said of the so-called Rapture or the "snatching away" of the Church. There is not a single verse of Scripture or a collection of Scripture that establishes a pre-trib "snatching away" of the Church. The Church will be on earth until the visible Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

Aaah, but there is plenty of Scripture (even in the Greek) to demonstrate the pre-trib rapture. Just like the "trinity" the concepts are all there.

After the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, which is the First Resurrection and only resurrection to date we have the following:

Matthew 28:16-20
16. Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

At that time the eleven disciples constituted the Church in its New Covenant form. Jesus Christ makes two essential points to the Church

1. All power is given unto Him in heaven and in earth. For those who are confused about who reigns over God's creation.

2. and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. A clear an unequivocal promise that He will be with His Church until the end of the world. And not the Church "snatched out" of the world but a Church teaching and baptizing! This is completely consistent with the Promise of Jesus Christ when He revealed the Church in its New Covenant form:

Matthew 16:15-18
15. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The gates of hell, hades, the grave, whatever. Nothing will ever prevail against the Church of Jesus the Messiah, the Christ!

Strange isn't it that the Gospel "some claim is written for the Jews" is the Gospel that records these two significant Promises of Jesus Christ, Jesus the Messiah: Matthew 28:16-20 and Matthew 16:15-18.

And then there is this from the Book of Revelation:

Revelation 22:16. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

Strange isn't that Jesus Christ would testify to His churches those things written in the Book of Revelation when they supposedly have nothing to do with the Churches?

Your post isn't bad OR, until you get to Revelation.
Jesus rose from the dead. Then for a period of 40 days he made himself known to many. More than 500 witnessed him in his resurrected body. Then just before he ascended into heaven he gave the apostles the Great Commission which you have quoted.

Where you have gone astray however is going back in time to Matthew 16:18. Jesus gave the Great Commission at the time of His ascension right before Pentecost, not somewhere near the beginning of his ministry where Peter gave his Confession.
The Church Age began at Pentecost. The First Baptist Church was formed that day when 3,000 were saved, baptized and added to the Jerusalem assembly. The word "church" or ekklesia is assembly, and was never meant to by used as "the Church" or in a RCC sense. It means local church or assembly, such as the one that was at Jerusalem, then Antioch, etc.

When Christ comes, he will come for His Bride. He is the bridegroom. Afterward the wedding feast will take place which is also referred to in Revelation.

Coming to the Book of Revelation the key verse is this one:
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
--Jesus Himself divides the book into three parts: the past, the present, and the future.
1. That which John had just seen was Jesus Christ.
2. That which is--the seven churches of chapters 2 and 3.
3. The future is most of the rest of the book.

There are seven letters written by Jesus and addressed to seven messengers or pastors of seven churches in chapter two and three. These are actual historical churches--churches that existed at that time.
It is interesting to note that from the end of chapter three the church is not heard of again until after chapter 19. No church is.
Chapters four and five are heavenly scenes.
From chapters six through nineteen describe the Great Tribulation, with chapter 19 describing the Second coming of Christ to save Israel, defeating her enemies. He comes with his saints that is us, believers who have already been raptured.
After that He will set up his Kingdom.
Chapter 20 describes the two resurrections and leads into the final Great White Throne Judgement.
Chapters 21, 22 describe the New Jerusalem, while John in the last chapter records the promise of Jesus "Behold I come," three times. That coming is the rapture that we are to eagerly anticipate.
His last prayer, the last recorded prayer of the Bible:
"Even so come Lord Jesus."

 

[OldRegular]

Aaah, but there is plenty of Scripture (even in the Greek) to demonstrate the pre-trib rapture. Just like the "trinity" the concepts are all there.

Your post isn't bad OR, until you get to Revelation.
Jesus rose from the dead. Then for a period of 40 days he made himself known to many. More than 500 witnessed him in his resurrected body. Then just before he ascended into heaven he gave the apostles the Great Commission which you have quoted.

Where you have gone astray however is going back in time to Matthew 16:18. Jesus gave the Great Commission at the time of His ascension right before Pentecost, not somewhere near the beginning of his ministry where Peter gave his Confession.
The Church Age began at Pentecost. The First Baptist Church was formed that day when 3,000 were saved, baptized and added to the Jerusalem assembly. The word "church" or ekklesia is assembly, and was never meant to by used as "the Church" or in a RCC sense. It means local church or assembly, such as the one that was at Jerusalem, then Antioch, etc.

When Christ comes, he will come for His Bride. He is the bridegroom. Afterward the wedding feast will take place which is also referred to in Revelation.

Coming to the Book of Revelation the key verse is this one:
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
--Jesus Himself divides the book into three parts: the past, the present, and the future.
1. That which John had just seen was Jesus Christ.
2. That which is--the seven churches of chapters 2 and 3.
3. The future is most of the rest of the book.

There are seven letters written by Jesus and addressed to seven messengers or pastors of seven churches in chapter two and three. These are actual historical churches--churches that existed at that time.
It is interesting to note that from the end of chapter three the church is not heard of again until after chapter 19. No church is.
Chapters four and five are heavenly scenes.
From chapters six through nineteen describe the Great Tribulation, with chapter 19 describing the Second coming of Christ to save Israel, defeating her enemies. He comes with his saints that is us, believers who have already been raptured.
After that He will set up his Kingdom.
Chapter 20 describes the two resurrections and leads into the final Great White Throne Judgement.
Chapters 21, 22 describe the New Jerusalem, while John in the last chapter records the promise of Jesus "Behold I come," three times. That coming is the rapture that we are to eagerly anticipate.
His last prayer, the last recorded prayer of the Bible:
"Even so come Lord Jesus."

You should try your hand at fiction! LeHaye and Jenkins got rich at fictionalizing the Word of God!

 

[prophet]

Why do the pretribbers think they know more than Jesus?

Angels aren't humans, they are spirits. They may look like us, when they appear, but they aren't physical beings.

Rev 1:12-17
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars:and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword:and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

John is shown a mystery.

Rev 1:20
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches:and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Jesus reveals the mystery.
The stars are representing angels.
There is no further mystery, nor revelation.
The mystery was stars in His hand, and candlesticks, and The Revelation of the mystery is Angels, and churches.

Rev 1:1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Angels are spirits, ministers for our sake, messengers, who bring messages to man.
An angel brought the message to John.

Heb 1:7
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Heb 1:14
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

No wonder we can't get doctrine right.

 

[RLBosley]

The hope of every believer is the second coming of Christ, the rapture, at which time we will receive our glorified bodies.

Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
--This is our hope. It is the next thing to happen on God's timetable. We look for his coming. It is our blessed hope. It is not a coming in judgment but a blessed and glorious coming. It is for our comfort.

1Th 4:16-18
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
--Verse 18: We are to comfort one another with the hope of his coming for he is coming for the believer. He is coming for the dead in Christ, those who have died in Christ before us, and those who are alive at the time of his coming.

1Jn 3:2-3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
--When he comes we receive our resurrection bodies. This is the first resurrection. We shall be like him for we shall see him as he is. What glorious thought!! We shall be like him! At that time (just before the Tribulation), we shall be like him. We will be glorified.
As in Titus 2:13, this is our hope. Keeping our eyes on his coming helps us to live a pure life.

Mat 24:36-42
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
--Take heed to these words of Christ.
First before he comes our world will be like it was in the days of Noah: eating, drinking and given in marriage--in other words very sinful. What else was it like? It was sinful enough that the Lord said:
"My Spirit shall not always strive with man." There is coming a day of judgment, a day when the Holy Spirit will withdraw himself, and God will pour out his judgement on this earth.

And then warning at the end, in verse 42--Watch! You don't know when this coming will be. It speaks of the rapture. No one knows when the rapture will be.

What will the rapture be like?

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Two pilots will be flying a plane; one will be taken, and the other left.
One couple will be driving in a car; one will be taken, and the other left.
Two men will be working together at a construction site; one will be taken, the other left.
Two women working in an office; one will be taken, the other left.
In an evangelical church perhaps 80% taken and 20% left.

Some refer to it as a "secret rapture."
Not so! With maybe more than one million believers worldwide, how will this be a secret?? There will be nothing secret about. It very well could be catastrophic depending on the effect Christians at that time will be having on the world.

OTOH, Jesus did say: "When I come will I find faith on the earth?" Did he mean 'faith' as in few Christians, or 'faith' as in the Christians that were, are weak Christians. I am not certain.
Look around. China is a fast growing nation. Its "Christian" population is quickly growing. There are also many others in third world nations that are coming to Christ due to persecution. There are many new believers in many nations.
Just some things to think about.

YGTBKM :BangHead:

It is evident that Matthew 24 is not chronological.
But here is a passage that is:

Act 1:6-9
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Right before He ascended into heaven Jesus told his disciples two things.
1. It was not for them to know about the time of the kingdom, and they shouldn't be concerned about it.
2. Their business was carrying out the Great Commission, not worrying about the kingdom.

The kingdom never came. It was offered and rejected. It still hasn't come. Jesus is in heaven at the right hand of the throne, not ruling, but rather interceding for us. That is not reigning. He has yet to come to earth and reign.
Obviously there is nothing but chaotic sin in this evil world where Satan, the god of this world has full reign. We wait for the coming of our Lord. He is our blessed hope. We still await His Coming. Those who are not awaiting his coming are indeed deceived.

So Matthew 24 isn't chronological, but Revelation is!? Despite the words used to establish chronology ("the beginning," "then they," "then the end," "IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION...gather together His elect") Matt 24 can't be chronological since that would contradict your tradition. That's just sad. How does it feel to actually be afraid of what scripture says?

Also, where was the kingdom offered? Book, chapter and verse please.

I disagree with you about Satan doesn't want to kill man, the scripture say's, St. John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but to steal and to kill and to destroy. If Satan ruled the world he would kill every lost person on earth and take them to hell.

Exactly! Thank you. :thumbsup:

Aaah, but there is plenty of Scripture (even in the Greek) to demonstrate the pre-trib rapture. Just like the "trinity" the concepts are all there.

Find one! Honestly, show me ONE verse that is indisputably pre-trib. You can't.

Your post isn't bad OR, until you get to Revelation.
Jesus rose from the dead. Then for a period of 40 days he made himself known to many. More than 500 witnessed him in his resurrected body. Then just before he ascended into heaven he gave the apostles the Great Commission which you have quoted.

Where you have gone astray however is going back in time to Matthew 16:18. Jesus gave the Great Commission at the time of His ascension right before Pentecost, not somewhere near the beginning of his ministry where Peter gave his Confession.
The Church Age began at Pentecost. The First Baptist Church was formed that day when 3,000 were saved, baptized and added to the Jerusalem assembly. The word "church" or ekklesia is assembly, and was never meant to by used as "the Church" or in a RCC sense. It means local church or assembly, such as the one that was at Jerusalem, then Antioch, etc.

When Christ comes, he will come for His Bride. He is the bridegroom. Afterward the wedding feast will take place which is also referred to in Revelation.

Coming to the Book of Revelation the key verse is this one:
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
--Jesus Himself divides the book into three parts: the past, the present, and the future.
1. That which John had just seen was Jesus Christ.
2. That which is--the seven churches of chapters 2 and 3.
3. The future is most of the rest of the book.

There are seven letters written by Jesus and addressed to seven messengers or pastors of seven churches in chapter two and three. These are actual historical churches--churches that existed at that time.
It is interesting to note that from the end of chapter three the church is not heard of again until after chapter 19. No church is.
Chapters four and five are heavenly scenes.
From chapters six through nineteen describe the Great Tribulation, with chapter 19 describing the Second coming of Christ to save Israel, defeating her enemies. He comes with his saints that is us, believers who have already been raptured.
After that He will set up his Kingdom.
Chapter 20 describes the two resurrections and leads into the final Great White Throne Judgement.
Chapters 21, 22 describe the New Jerusalem, while John in the last chapter records the promise of Jesus "Behold I come," three times. That coming is the rapture that we are to eagerly anticipate.
His last prayer, the last recorded prayer of the Bible:
"Even so come Lord Jesus."

The world ends AT LEAST 3 times in Revelation, yet it's chronological? But not Matthew 24?

 

[OldRegular]

YGTBKM :BangHead:



So Matthew 24 isn't chronological, but Revelation is!? Despite the words used to establish chronology ("the beginning," "then they," "then the end," "IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION...gather together His elect") Matt 24 can't be chronological since that would contradict your tradition. That's just sad. How does it feel to actually be afraid of what scripture says?

Also, where was the kingdom offered? Book, chapter and verse please.



Exactly! Thank you. :thumbsup:



Find one! Honestly, show me ONE verse that is indisputably pre-trib. You can't.



The world ends AT LEAST 3 times in Revelation, yet it's chronological? But not Matthew 24?

*************************************************************************

Excellent comments RLB. One I really believe is appropriate is:

Also, where was the kingdom offered? Book, chapter and verse please.

It is just like the dispensational pre-trib "snatching away" of the Church, it can't be found because there is no Biblical record of the earthly Messianic Kingdom being offered to the Jews. That supposed offer and its refusal is the basis for the false dispensational doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church. Very sad.

Dispensationalism teaches that an intrinsic and enduring distinction exists between Israel and the Church. The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity [Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism ]. Charles C. Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism writes about the above statement [page 39]: "This is probably the most basic theological test of whether or not a person is a dispensationalist, and it is undoubtedly the most practical and conclusive. The one who fails to distinguish Israel and the Church consistently will inevitably not hold to dispensational distinctives; and the one who does will."

Dispensationalism denies that the church is included in prophecy. Rather, the claim is made that Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic kingdom for the Jews, that they rejected Him, and that He established the Church instead [Herman Hoyt, a dispensationalist, in The Millennium, Four Viewpoints, by Clouse, pages 84-88]. The Church is often referred to as the ‘mystery parenthesis’ form of the Kingdom; mystery in that there is no prophecy in the Old Testament regarding the Church and parenthesis in that God found it necessary to interrupt His program for the Jews because their leaders rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah and He was unable to establish the Messianic kingdom.​

Yet Jesus Christ before His sacrificial death on the cross told God the Father:

John 17:1-5
1. These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2. As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Now did Jesus the Messiah, Jesus the Christ, finish the work He came to do. He tells God the Father that He did. But if He had come to establish the earthly Messianic Kingdom then He had not finished that work. Every person born into this world will die unless the return of Jesus Christ brings death to an end. However, in all of time only one person was born to die; that person was Jesus Christ.

He came to die for the people God had given Him.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Revelation 1:5-7
5. And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6. And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

1 Corinthians 15:3, 4
3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

He came to die for His Bride, the Church.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

 

[RLBosley]

*************************************************************************

Excellent comments RLB. One I really believe is appropriate is:



It is just like the dispensational pre-trib "snatching away" of the Church, it can't be found because there is no Biblical record of the earthly Messianic Kingdom being offered to the Jews. That supposed offer and its refusal is the basis for the false dispensational doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church. Very sad.

Dispensationalism teaches that an intrinsic and enduring distinction exists between Israel and the Church. The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity [Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism ]. Charles C. Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism writes about the above statement [page 39]: "This is probably the most basic theological test of whether or not a person is a dispensationalist, and it is undoubtedly the most practical and conclusive. The one who fails to distinguish Israel and the Church consistently will inevitably not hold to dispensational distinctives; and the one who does will."

Dispensationalism denies that the church is included in prophecy. Rather, the claim is made that Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic kingdom for the Jews, that they rejected Him, and that He established the Church instead [Herman Hoyt, a dispensationalist, in The Millennium, Four Viewpoints, by Clouse, pages 84-88]. The Church is often referred to as the ‘mystery parenthesis’ form of the Kingdom; mystery in that there is no prophecy in the Old Testament regarding the Church and parenthesis in that God found it necessary to interrupt His program for the Jews because their leaders rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah and He was unable to establish the Messianic kingdom.​

Yet Jesus Christ before His sacrificial death on the cross told God the Father:

John 17:1-5
1. These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2. As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Now did Jesus the Messiah, Jesus the Christ, finish the work He came to do. He tells God the Father that He did. But if He had come to establish the earthly Messianic Kingdom then He had not finished that work. Every person born into this world will die unless the return of Jesus Christ brings death to an end. However, in all of time only one person was born to die; that person was Jesus Christ.

He came to die for the people God had given Him.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Revelation 1:5-7
5. And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6. And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

1 Corinthians 15:3, 4
3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

He came to die for His Bride, the Church.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Good stuff :thumbsup:

There is also the issue that when the people WANTED TO MAKE HIM KING, that is an earthly Messianic King LIKE THEY WANTED, the Lord fled and hid himself.

Jhn 6:15 NASB - So Jesus, perceiving that they were intending to come and take Him by force to make Him king, withdrew again to the mountain by Himself alone.

 

[OldRegular]

Good stuff :thumbsup:

There is also the issue that when the people WANTED TO MAKE HIM KING, that is an earthly Messianic King LIKE THEY WANTED, the Lord fled and hid himself.

Jhn 6:15 NASB - So Jesus, perceiving that they were intending to come and take Him by force to make Him king, withdrew again to the mountain by Himself alone.

That is a familiar verse. Shows that some people have to ignore some Scripture to justify their doctrine!

 

[webdog]

Why do the pretribbers think they know more than Jesus?

Angels aren't humans, they are spirits. They may look like us, when they appear, but they aren't physical beings.

Rev 1:12-17
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars:and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword:and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

John is shown a mystery.

Rev 1:20
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches:and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Jesus reveals the mystery.
The stars are representing angels.
There is no further mystery, nor revelation.
The mystery was stars in His hand, and candlesticks, and The Revelation of the mystery is Angels, and churches.

Rev 1:1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Angels are spirits, ministers for our sake, messengers, who bring messages to man.
An angel brought the message to John.

Heb 1:7
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Heb 1:14
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

No wonder we can't get doctrine right.

Spirits eat?

 

[DHK]

You should try your hand at fiction! LeHaye and Jenkins got rich at fictionalizing the Word of God!

That is the type of degrading answer a person would give when they don't know how to refute Scripture. Is there a purpose to it?

 

[DHK]

Why do the pretribbers think they know more than Jesus?

Angels aren't humans, they are spirits. They may look like us, when they appear, but they aren't physical beings.

Did anyone dispute this?

John is shown a mystery.

Yes he was, and the mystery was explained to him--very clearly.

Jesus reveals the mystery.
The stars are representing angels.
There is no further mystery, nor revelation.
The mystery was stars in His hand, and candlesticks, and The Revelation of the mystery is Angels, and churches.

No more revelation?? You mean, as far as you are concerned the rest of the book is fiction?? Sad point of view.

Angels are spirits, ministers for our sake, messengers, who bring messages to man.

No one disputed that, but that is not their only purpose.

An angel brought the message to John.

The word "angelos" simply means messenger. It can be used in more than one sense. In chapters two and three there were messengers of the seven churches described there. These messengers were obviously the pastors.

No wonder we can't get doctrine right.

Speak for yourself.

 

[DHK]

YGTBKM :BangHead:

So Matthew 24 isn't chronological, but Revelation is!? Despite the words used to establish chronology ("the beginning," "then they," "then the end," "IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION...gather together His elect") Matt 24 can't be chronological since that would contradict your tradition. That's just sad. How does it feel to actually be afraid of what scripture says?

I never said Revelation is chronological. Would you like to quote me on that? In fact I said the exact opposite. I said that Revelation is not always chronological. Pay attention!

Also, where was the kingdom offered? Book, chapter and verse please.

Of course:
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
The Jews rejected Him. Not only did they reject Him they rejected His offer of the Kingdom. Had they received Him as their Messiah He would have given them the Kingdom as well. But they didn't. It was complete rejection.

Find one! Honestly, show me ONE verse that is indisputably pre-trib. You can't.

I have given many.
You cannot reconcile 1Thes.4:16-18 (rapture) with 2Thes.1:7-10. They aren't the same event. The first speaks of comfort of the believers (4:18). The second describes vengeance on unbelievers--two events with two different purposes. They cannot be reconciled as the same event. One of them is obviously the rapture.

The world ends AT LEAST 3 times in Revelation, yet it's chronological? But not Matthew 24?

You can interpret the Bible any way you want when you apply unbiblical methods.
The Bible says: "There is no God." (Psalm 14:1). Do you believe it teaches that?
The world will end but one time, and then the Lord will make a new earth and a new heaven. Even then, the end of the earth is described better in references outside of Revelation.

 

[OldRegular]

That is the type of degrading answer a person would give when they don't know how to refute Scripture. Is there a purpose to it?

You questioned my Salvation three different times because I don't believe your doctrine and that is a fact

From: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=93101&page=14

This is what you call personal attack!

Originally Posted by DHK

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
--There are two resurrections mentioned here: one to life and one to damnation. If Christ is the resurrection of life, then you are of the one to damnation. I don't believe that. So, no; His resurrection is in a class of its own.

Originally Posted by DHK
And thus your ignorance.
There are two resurrections that Jesus spoke of, and neither one of them is His.
If you say that one of them is His, that leaves you only in the second one--the unjust. Is this what you are telling me? You can't be involved in two resurrections OR!

From: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2107110#post2107110, posts #72 & 73

You are correct. If God doesn't reign over his creation then how can He be God?

That sounds like the typical answer of an unsaved person (not making accusation, just saying)

 

[RLBosley]

I never said Revelation is chronological. Would you like to quote me on that? In fact I said the exact opposite. I said that Revelation is not always chronological. Pay attention!

You said:

There are seven letters written by Jesus and addressed to seven messengers or pastors of seven churches in chapter two and three. These are actual historical churches--churches that existed at that time.
It is interesting to note that from the end of chapter three the church is not heard of again until after chapter 19. No church is.
Chapters four and five are heavenly scenes.
From chapters six through nineteen describe the Great Tribulation, with chapter 19 describing the Second coming of Christ to save Israel, defeating her enemies. He comes with his saints that is us, believers who have already been raptured.
After that He will set up his Kingdom.
Chapter 20 describes the two resurrections and leads into the final Great White Throne Judgement.
Chapters 21, 22 describe the New Jerusalem, while John in the last chapter records the promise of Jesus "Behold I come," three times. That coming is the rapture that we are to eagerly anticipate.
His last prayer, the last recorded prayer of the Bible:
"Even so come Lord Jesus."

Sure sounds like you believe it is chronological. Were did you say it wasn't? And more importantly, on what basis do you say Matt 24 isn't chronological? Other than the fact that it ruins your tradition.

Of course:
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
The Jews rejected Him. Not only did they reject Him they rejected His offer of the Kingdom. Had they received Him as their Messiah He would have given them the Kingdom as well. But they didn't. It was complete rejection.

I see nothing of an offer of an earthly kingdom there. You are, again, reading your tradition into the text. It says Jesus, as a Jew, came to Jews, and they did not receive him (as was prophesied I might add). Done. Nothing to do there with an earthly kingdom or anything of the sort.

I have given many.
You cannot reconcile 1Thes.4:16-18 (rapture) with 2Thes.1:7-10. They aren't the same event. The first speaks of comfort of the believers (4:18). The second describes vengeance on unbelievers--two events with two different purposes. They cannot be reconciled as the same event. One of them is obviously the rapture.

I never said that one wasn't the rapture. It however is not a pre-trib rapture. You are apparently willfully blinded by the fact that 2 Thess 1 says that when Jesus returns "in flaming fire taking vengeance" on the wicked, he also is coming to "be glorified by His saints and to be admired by all those who have believed." 2 Thessalonians 1 is a clear depiction of the Lord's ONE, single return for the purpose of punishing the wicked and gathering his elect. One event at one time, not two separated by years.

You can interpret the Bible any way you want when you apply unbiblical methods.
The Bible says: "There is no God." (Psalm 14:1). Do you believe it teaches that?
The world will end but one time, and then the Lord will make a new earth and a new heaven. Even then, the end of the earth is described better in references outside of Revelation.

How can you be so dense!? You must be trolling right?

You can't honestly think that I believe the world ends multiple times. It's pretty obvious that I said the world ends 3 times in Revelation, not that it will actually end three times. (Hint: That means the visions in Revelation aren't chronological, but repeatedly cover the same event from multiple perspectives.)

 

[DHK]

You questioned my Salvation three different times because I don't believe your doctrine and that is a fact

From: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=93101&page=14

This is what you call personal attack!

Your logic doesn't make sense and I was pointing it out to you. It still doesn't make sense. You explain it. You maintain that Jesus is the only one to rise from the dead, and in the same breath say that there are only two resurrections. If he is the first resurrection who is left in the second resurrection. Rev.20:15-20 speaks of the resurrection of the damned, as did Jesus in John 5, as did John in Rev.20:1-5. That is three times this resurrection is mentioned. If there are two resurrections and only two, and one of them is Jesus and the other is the unjust, my question is "where do you fit in"?
It is not questioning your salvation, but rather you logic!

From: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2107110#post2107110, posts #72 & 73



That sounds like the typical answer of an unsaved person (not making accusation, just saying)

I reiterated the same logic as I did above. This time I clarified my self not making accusation.... I wasn't making any accusations against you or any personal attacks. That is why I put that in there. I was questioning your logic!

 

[DHK]

You said:

Sure sounds like you believe it is chronological. Were did you say it wasn't? And more importantly, on what basis do you say Matt 24 isn't chronological? Other than the fact that it ruins your tradition.

Do you believe that the book of Revelation is simply "tradition" and not the Word of God? I don't.
There is a general chronology to the book, but there are places where things are not chronological. I have admitted to that.
The chronology is given in the first chapter:

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
--That is chronology. It is basic to the book. Jesus commanded him to write things in order. It has a general order to it.

I see nothing of an offer of an earthly kingdom there. You are, again, reading your tradition into the text. It says Jesus, as a Jew, came to Jews, and they did not receive him (as was prophesied I might add). Done. Nothing to do there with an earthly kingdom or anything of the sort.

I believe the Word of God, thus every time you use the word "tradition" I will just assume that that is your view of the Bible--"tradition". That is sad.
They crucified Christ because He offered to be their King. He claimed to be the Messiah. That fact alone implicated Him as the one that would set up the Kingdom. Read the gospels, especially Matthew.

I never said that one wasn't the rapture. It however is not a pre-trib rapture. You are apparently willfully blinded by the fact that 2 Thess 1 says that when Jesus returns "in flaming fire taking vengeance" on the wicked, he also is coming to "be glorified by His saints and to be admired by all those who have believed." 2 Thessalonians 1 is a clear depiction of the Lord's ONE, single return for the purpose of punishing the wicked and gathering his elect. One event at one time, not two separated by years.

The two events are so different in nature that they can't be the same or take place at the same time. They are two separate events. He comes to the clouds in one event, and comes to Mount Olvet in the other splitting the mountain in two. Both cannot be true. The two accounts are not the same. He does not come for the believers and for the Jews at the same time. The two passages are irreconcilable.

How can you be so dense!? You must be trolling right?

You can't honestly think that I believe the world ends multiple times. It's pretty obvious that I said the world ends 3 times in Revelation, not that it will actually end three times. (Hint: That means the visions in Revelation aren't chronological, but repeatedly cover the same event from multiple perspectives.)

No, but I might think the same of you when you write the same as a veiled false accusation against the dispensationalist. We don't believe the world ends three times either! "How can you be so dense?" as to even suggest it? Why do you write it in the first place unless you are suggesting that we are the dense ones that believe such a thing! Smarten up and quit trolling! What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[OldRegular]

It is utter nonsense to say that because the word Church does not appear in Chapters 6-19 of the Book of Revelation that establishes the doctrine of a pre-trib "snatching away" of the Church. In fact the Bride of jesus Christ is mentioned in Chapter 19 and the word Israel appears only one time in Chapters 6-18; the word Jew not at all.

I posted the following earlier but it bears repeating in the face of such claims.

There is nothing in Revelation that indicates the Church is no longer present during the events described in chapters 6-18. In fact as I have noted before:

"The argument is made that because the words church or churches do not appear after the completion of the third chapter of the Revelation, the Church cannot be present during the events described in the succeeding chapters. The word churches is used eleven times in Chapters 1-3, the word church is used seven times in these same chapters. The word church or churches does not appear again until Chapter 22, Verse 16. However, the term saints is used in Revelation 5:8; 8:3, 4; 11:18; 13:7, 10; 14:12; 15:3; 16:6; 17:6; 18:24; 19:8; and 20:9. The term redeemed is used in Revelation 5:9 and 14:3, 4. Both of these terms are characteristic of the Church, the Body and Bride of Jesus Christ when found elsewhere in the New Testament [Gregg, Revelation, Four Views, page 87]. The appearance of the churches again in Chapter 22, Verses 16 and 17 is interesting and informative.

Revelation 22:16,17, KJV
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Notice two things,

1. Jesus sent His angel to testify of these things in the churches, and
2. The Spirit and the Bride, the Church, give the invitation to come and take of the water of life freely.

These are strange statements to make if the Church is inconsequential during much of the period covered in Revelation; is gone during the tribulation period, and Jesus Christ rules with a ‘rod of iron’ during the millennium."

Now we examine the appearance of the words Israel or Jew in the Book of Revelation. The word Israel appears three times in the Book of Revelation, Chapters 2, 7, and 21; the word Jews appears only twice, Chapters 2 and 3, and there the reference is to false Jews. So we see that a reference to Israel appears only once during that part of the Book that is presumed to represent ‘the seven year tribulation’ and ‘Jacob’s time of trouble’. The first time the word Israel is used [2:14] the reference is to the false prophet Balaam and his role in the seduction of Israel enroute to the promise land. In Chapter 7 the name Israel is used in the discussion of the servants of God who are sealed. The next occasion [21:12] the name is used in the description of the New Jerusalem, the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ. Again, Israel is referred to only one time, and no reference is made to the Jews, during that period in which it is claimed that the Church is absent. Strange indeed is the absence of the words Jew or Israel in the 16 chapters of Revelation written specifically, according to dispensational theology, for them while in the remainder of the New Testament the words Jew or Jews occur 188 times and the words Israel or Israelite occur 73 times.

It is interesting to note that there are other books in the New Testament where the words church or churches are not used. The words do not appear in the Gospels of Mark, Luke, and John. If one believes that the Church was not established until Pentecost, that is not necessarily unusual. It is interesting, however, that the book that many dispensationalists claim is the Gospel of the Kingdom [written by a Jewish believer who collected taxes for Rome] is the Gospel in which the Church is first proclaimed. The words church or churches are not mentioned in 1st & 2nd Peter, 1st & 2nd John, and Jude. Can we then argue the absence of the Church? The words are also absent from the first 15 chapters of Romans and occur only twice in Hebrews.

To show that the absence or presence of a word is not decisive consider the Book of Esther in the Old Testament. The editor of the Thompson Chain Reference Bible notes:The name of God does not appear in the book, while a heathen king is referred to over 150 times. There is no allusion to prayer or spiritual service of any kind with the possible exception of fasting. Does this absence of reference to God mean that He was absent or that the book of Esther should not be in the Canon? Obviously not. The book of Esther was written to show God’s watch care over His Covenant people through whom He would bring the Saviour into the world.

In conclusion, there are books in the New Testament in which the words church or churches are not mentioned. Therefore, the absence of the word church in Chapters 4-19 of the book of Revelation is scant justification to claim that the Church is absent during the period covered by these chapters. However, I believe the best argument against a pretribulation “Rapture” is contained in the proper interpretation of John 5:28,29.

Alan Johnson writing in the Expositors Bible Commentary, Volume 12, page 461 explains the absence of the word ‘church’ as follows: “the word church or churches always stands in Revelation for the historic seven churches in Asia and not for the universal body of Christ. Since 4:2-22:15 concerns the believing community as a whole, it would be inappropriate at least for John’s usage to find the narrower term ‘church’ in this section."

Walvoord, page 279, Major Bible Prophecies, writes: In the entirety of Revelation 4-18, no mention of the church on earth is found. Instead believers are referred to as believing Gentiles or believing Jews but never as the church. The total absence of any reference to the church is difficult to explain unless the pretribulationists are correct that the church is in heaven and not on earth during this period. However, as noted previously the word Jew is not mentioned in Chapters 4-19. The word Israel is mentioned only one time [Revelation 7:4]. The word Gentile is mentioned only one time [Revelation 11:2]. The word “redeemed” occurs only three times, one [Revelation 5:9] referring to the redeemed in Heaven, the remaining two in reference to the 144,000 on Mt Zion [Revelation 14:3, 4]. The word Saints occurs 13 times. Therefore, Walvoord’s statement that believers are referred to as believing Gentiles or believing Jews is not correct. In fact the words believer, believing, believe, or belief do not occur in the Book of Revelation.​

Arguing that because the word Church does not appear in Revelation 6-19 the Bride is not there is like arguing that God is absent at the time the book of Esther was describing. As noted above the editor of the Thompson Chain Reference Bible notes: "The name of God does not appear in the book, while a heathen king is referred to over 150 times."

I would also note that the words church or churches are not mentioned in 1st & 2nd Peter, 1st & 2nd John, and Jude. Does anyone want to argue that the Church was missing at that time in history. The words are also absent from the first 15 chapters of Romans and occur only twice in Hebrews. it is likely that only the hyper-dispensationalists would take comfort in that since they are only concerned with the prison Epistles of Paul.

It is also worth noting that the argument presented by Walvoord above is typical dispensational spin, worse yet it is totally false as I show.

 

[Aaron]

Spirits eat?

You need to come to grips with Adam and how you died in him, and how one is risen in Christ before you speculate about angels.

 

[RLBosley]

Do you believe that the book of Revelation is simply "tradition" and not the Word of God? I don't.
There is a general chronology to the book, but there are places where things are not chronological. I have admitted to that.
The chronology is given in the first chapter:

How in the world do you get that I view Revelation as simply tradition?

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
--That is chronology. It is basic to the book. Jesus commanded him to write things in order. It has a general order to it.

With that I agree. But you also can't assume that everything which false under "things which shall be hereafter" in the book is chronological. Again, the world ends 3 times in the book, how can it be chronological?

I believe the Word of God, thus every time you use the word "tradition" I will just assume that that is your view of the Bible--"tradition". That is sad.
They crucified Christ because He offered to be their King. He claimed to be the Messiah. That fact alone implicated Him as the one that would set up the Kingdom. Read the gospels, especially Matthew.

WHAT!?! That is the most illogical nonsense I think I have ever read! How in the world do you possibly get the idea that I view the Bible as just tradition? Why are you being so dishonest? Are you that incapable of discussing this like a rational human being? Are you so afraid that your system will be proven to be in error?

The two events are so different in nature that they can't be the same or take place at the same time. They are two separate events. He comes to the clouds in one event, and comes to Mount Olvet in the other splitting the mountain in two. Both cannot be true. The two accounts are not the same. He does not come for the believers and for the Jews at the same time. The two passages are irreconcilable.

The Mt. of Olives is not in either text. They are perfectly complimentary once you stop trying to do violence to the text in order to support your system.

No, but I might think the same of you when you write the same as a veiled false accusation against the dispensationalist. We don't believe the world ends three times either! "How can you be so dense?" as to even suggest it? Why do you write it in the first place unless you are suggesting that we are the dense ones that believe such a thing! Smarten up and quit trolling! What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

I don't even know what the heck you are saying here. You really are illogical.