Who Has Part in The First Resurrection?

[RLBosley]

The entire factual GT is Gods wrath against an unbelieving world.

So therefore the Christians are not the recipients of God's wrath.

 

[DHK]

If the early church interpreted Revelation in the same way as you (and other dispensationalists) do, then why do none of them agree with you?

Origen was a heretic; declared so even by the RCC. Augustine was one of the founders of the RCC. I wouldn't base my theology on those two heretics.
Most of the ECF were "Chiliasts" and did believe as I do. To say that "none" of them believe as I do is ridiculous. Do some research. Here is one link I keep referring to others that they might take a look at.

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/dispensation.htm

Doesn't matter what the newspaper or the internet says. The Bible says Jesus is Lord. That is a title of authority. He is reigning now. By his very nature, as God, he must reign. Where else would he be but on the throne?

Matthew 28:18 -- Then Jesus came near and said to them, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Acts 2:33-36 -- Therefore, since He has been exalted to the right hand of God and has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit, He has poured out what you both see and hear. For it was not David who ascended into the heavens, but he himself says:

The Lord declared to my Lord,
‘Sit at My right hand
until I make Your enemies Your footstool.’

“Therefore let all the house of Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah!”

Ephesians 1:20-23 -- He demonstrated this power in the Messiah by raising Him from the dead and seating Him at His right hand in the heavens— far above every ruler and authority, power and dominion, and every title given, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put everything under His feet and appointed Him as head over everything for the church, which is His body, the fullness of the One who fills all things in every way.

Colossians 2:9,10 -- For the entire fullness of God’s nature dwells bodily in Christ, and you have been filled by Him, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

So you lock yourself in your room, behind your keyboard and ignore what is going on in the world. You are absolutely ignorant of the devastation going on in your nation--the people who have died as a result of the tornadoes, the consequences of some of the bills that Obama has had on the nation including Obamacare and his leniency to those bills which side with homosexuality and oppose traditional marriages. You remain ignorant of current affairs.

IOW you don't know what goes on in this world, are totally blind, and deliberately so, just because you want to say "Jesus reigns" in this sin infested, adulterous, murderous iniquitous world.

As the prophet said:
Habakkuk 1:13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?
--His eyes are so pure that he will not behold evil. He will come and judge it, and he hasn't done it.

When he does, he will set up is kingdom and judge it in righteousness as per Isaiah 11, which you have no way of explaining.

 

[DHK]

Who reigns in this world?

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
--Who is the "god of this word"? It isn't Christ!

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

 

[RLBosley]

Origen was a heretic; declared so even by the RCC. Augustine was one of the founders of the RCC. I wouldn't base my theology on those two heretics.
Most of the ECF were "Chiliasts" and did believe as I do. To say that "none" of them believe as I do is ridiculous. Do some research. Here is one link I keep referring to others that they might take a look at.

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/dispensation.htm

Chiliasm does not equal dispensational premillennialism.

So you lock yourself in your room, behind your keyboard and ignore what is going on in the world. You are absolutely ignorant of the devastation going on in your nation--the people who have died as a result of the tornadoes, the consequences of some of the bills that Obama has had on the nation including Obamacare and his leniency to those bills which side with homosexuality and oppose traditional marriages. You remain ignorant of current affairs.

IOW you don't know what goes on in this world, are totally blind, and deliberately so, just because you want to say "Jesus reigns" in this sin infested, adulterous, murderous iniquitous world.

As the prophet said:
Habakkuk 1:13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?
--His eyes are so pure that he will not behold evil. He will come and judge it, and he hasn't done it.

When he does, he will set up is kingdom and judge it in righteousness as per Isaiah 11, which you have no way of explaining.

I am quite up to date on the news. To state I'm ignorant of current affairs is just stupid. Trying to discredit my position by saying I'm "ignorant," I "don't know what goes on," and I'm "totally blind" is not only false but also rude and entirely uncalled for. How are you a moderator?

I also notice you haven't dealt, at all, with the texts I posted. I try and come to my positions from study of scripture, not study of the news. You should try it sometime.

 

[OldRegular]

.

BTW, it was John, not Paul who spoke of many antichrists 2000 years ago.

1 John 2:18 - Children, it is the last hour. And as you have heard, “Antichrist is coming,” even now many antichrists have come. We know from this that it is the last hour.

Thanks I knew it was John. Generally my two fingers are a little behind my brain. Not so this time. In fact John is the only NT writer to use the word antichrist unless I am mistaken!

 

[RLBosley]

Who reigns in this world?

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
--Who is the "god of this word"? It isn't Christ!

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Jesus reigns. God will forever reign. Satan is on a leash and under God's authority. Do you somehow thing that the Devil is out from under of God's control?

 

[RLBosley]

Thanks I knew it was John. Generally my two fingers are a little behind my brain. Not so this time. In fact John is the only NT writer to use the word antichrist unless I am mistaken!

You are correct. A couple times in 1 John and once in 2 John IIRC.

 

[OldRegular]

To even hint the wrath to come will be poured out on Christ yet again is unthinkable.

I don't believe anyone has mentioned that. However, it is a fact that Christians undergo persecution and tribulation and have from the beginning!

John 16:33. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

 

[DHK]

Chiliasm does not equal dispensational premillennialism.



I am quite up to date on the news. To state I'm ignorant of current affairs is just stupid. Trying to discredit my position by saying I'm "ignorant," I "don't know what goes on," and I'm "totally blind" is not only false but also rude and entirely uncalled for. How are you a moderator?

I also notice you haven't dealt, at all, with the texts I posted. I try and come to my positions from study of scripture, not study of the news. You should try it sometime.

Your texts have to be taken in context.
For example: Jesus said all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
He stated that, and then he commanded his disciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel.
He did not exercise all his power on earth did he. Look at the earth. Reconcile the power that he has with what is happening on earth. He is not exercising that power just as he did not exercise it when he went to the cross and told Peter "he could have called 12 legions of angels" to fight his battle for him. He didn't exercise his power then, and he is not now.

He will when he comes to earth and sets up his kingdom.

He sits on the right hand of the throne of God. Yes he does. So what!
That does not mean he is ruling this earth from heaven. Take the scripture I gave you. Satan is the ruler of this earth. That is what the Bible says. Even if Christ is in heaven, does not mean he is ruling the earth. He will but he is not now. The verses you quote are simply taken out of context.

It is like saying just because we have a promise of a resurrected and glorified body doesn't mean we have it now. That is the logic you are using.

 

[OldRegular]

Chiliasm does not equal dispensational premillennialism.

Sadly some dispensational writers have co-opted that name. There is a major difference between dispensationalism and historic premillennialism. Historic premillennialism reject the concept of a "parenthesis" church. I have noted before that progressive dispensationalism seems to be moving in the direction of historic or covenant premillennialism.

 

[DHK]

Jesus reigns. God will forever reign. Satan is on a leash and under God's authority. Do you somehow thing that the Devil is out from under of God's control?

God has given the control of this earth to Satan, at least to a certain extent.
All mankind are born children of Satan. They are pawns in his hand, totally separated from God. Not until they are born again, born into God's family do they have any chance of "resisting the devil, and the devil will flee from them."
That is the only chance of defeating the devil in this world--taking on the whole armor of God; praying with all prayer and supplications; not being a part of this world. We, by faith, are overcomers.
But those who are not saved serve another master; they serve their father, satan (John 8:44). He is the god of this world.

 

[OldRegular]

Doesn't matter what the newspaper or the internet says. The Bible says Jesus is Lord. That is a title of authority. He is reigning now. By his very nature, as God, he must reign. Where else would he be but on the throne?

Matthew 28:18 -- Then Jesus came near and said to them, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Acts 2:33-36 -- Therefore, since He has been exalted to the right hand of God and has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit, He has poured out what you both see and hear. For it was not David who ascended into the heavens, but he himself says:

The Lord declared to my Lord,
‘Sit at My right hand
until I make Your enemies Your footstool.’

“Therefore let all the house of Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah!”

Ephesians 1:20-23 -- He demonstrated this power in the Messiah by raising Him from the dead and seating Him at His right hand in the heavens— far above every ruler and authority, power and dominion, and every title given, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put everything under His feet and appointed Him as head over everything for the church, which is His body, the fullness of the One who fills all things in every way.

Colossians 2:9,10 -- For the entire fullness of God’s nature dwells bodily in Christ, and you have been filled by Him, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

You are correct. If God doesn't reign over his creation then how can He be God?

Acts 17:24-28
24. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25. Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26. And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27. That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28. For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

 

[DHK]

You are correct. If God doesn't reign over his creation then how can He be God?

That sounds like the typical answer of an unsaved person (not making accusation, just saying)

God isn't reigning because if he were he wouldn't have allowed Adam and Eve to sin.
God isn't reigning because if he were he wouldn't have allowed all this sin, and all these tornadoes to have hit our nation.
God isn't reigning because if he were we would not be suffering so many diseases by his own creation (there are more deaths worldwide caused by mosquitoes then by any other animal).
His own creation causes millions of deaths, therefore by default God is not reigning is he?

 

[RLBosley]

That sounds like the typical answer of an unsaved person (not making accusation, just saying)

God isn't reigning because if he were he wouldn't have allowed Adam and Eve to sin.
God isn't reigning because if he were he wouldn't have allowed all this sin, and all these tornadoes to have hit our nation.
God isn't reigning because if he were we would not be suffering so many diseases by his own creation (there are more deaths worldwide caused by mosquitoes then by any other animal).
His own creation causes millions of deaths, therefore by default God is not reigning is he?

Umm that's exactly the argument you are using! :laugh:

You said earlier that the bad stuff going in the world is evidence that Christ is not reigning!

So which is it?

 

[DHK]

Umm that's exactly the argument you are using! :laugh:

You said earlier that the bad stuff going in the world is evidence that Christ is not reigning!

So which is it?

Perhaps you are not following.
God permits evil. God is still on his throne. God does not reign on this earth. Satan is the god of this earth. If Christ were reigning on this earth there would be no sin or war on this earth; obviously He is not.
He is not reigning on this earth, therefore there is sin.
He allows it and in fact has given it over to Satan and allows him to rule with a free hand except for those who come to Him.
Clear enough.

 

[salzer mtn]

I didn't take it that way, hence not disingenuous. The Bible states we are seated with Him right now in the heavenlies. In a sense we did take part in the first resurrection.

Those of the elect did take part with him in his resurrection. Beginning with verse five of Eph second chapter, Even when we (elect) were dead in sin's, hath quickened us (made us alive) with Christ. When God made Christ alive or quickened him in the tomb, the elect were in Him. And has raised us up together, together with who ? Christ. And made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Before we were ever born we were in Christ, According as he has chosen us IN HIM before the foundation of the world, Eph1:4. We were resurrected together in Him and we are now setting in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. This all happened prier to us being saved because in verse seven in the ages to come or when we came into this world Christ showed the riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

 

[salzer mtn]

Perhaps you are not following.
God permits evil. God is still on his throne. God does not reign on this earth. Satan is the god of this earth. If Christ were reigning on this earth there would be no sin or war on this earth; obviously He is not.
He is not reigning on this earth, therefore there is sin.
He allows it and in fact has given it over to Satan and allows him to rule with a free hand except for those who come to Him.
Clear enough.

Does the scripture say Satan is the god of this earth or the god of this world ? big difference. The world can be a ungodly system or ungodly people.

 

[salzer mtn]

That sounds like the typical answer of an unsaved person (not making accusation, just saying)

God isn't reigning because if he were he wouldn't have allowed Adam and Eve to sin.
God isn't reigning because if he were he wouldn't have allowed all this sin, and all these tornadoes to have hit our nation.
God isn't reigning because if he were we would not be suffering so many diseases by his own creation (there are more deaths worldwide caused by mosquitoes then by any other animal).
His own creation causes millions of deaths, therefore by default God is not reigning is he?

This sounds like the old saying if a tornado hits a beer joint the Lord takes the glory but if a tornado hits a church house the devil get's the blame.

 

[DHK]

Those of the elect did take part with him in his resurrection. Beginning with verse five of Eph second chapter, Even when we (elect) were dead in sin's, hath quickened us (made us alive) with Christ. When God made Christ alive or quickened him in the tomb, the elect were in Him. And has raised us up together, together with who ? Christ. And made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Before we were ever born we were in Christ, According as he has chosen us IN HIM before the foundation of the world, Eph1:4. We were resurrected together in Him and we are now setting in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. This all happened prier to us being saved because in verse seven in the ages to come or when we came into this world Christ showed the riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

That sounds like mysticism to me. I have never been in those "heavenly places" you speak of. I don't think Paul is speaking about being there either.
The verse hinges around "in Christ," and looks with anticipation about being in heavenly places. We aren't there yet.
It is similar to the verse: "Let this mind be in you which is also in Christ Jesus."
The context from chapter one is speaking both of our adoption and our predestination--that which we look forward to. We also look forward to being resurrected and being in the heavenlies. We aren't there yet.

 

[OldRegular]

Does the scripture say Satan is the god of this earth or the god of this world ? big difference. The world can be a ungodly system or ungodly people.

Thanks for pointing that out!