Who here thinks babies go to heaven ?

Re: Age of Accountability

Numbers 14:26-32
And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, which murmur against me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they murmur against me. Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you: Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me, Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.
But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness.

My thoughts are as follows:
1. The name of every soul that God has created is initally written in the Book of Life.
2. Those that reject the wooing of the Holy Spirit and commit the 'unpardonable sin', their name is marked out of the Book of Life.
3. Children under the age of accountability and mentally challenged people never commit the 'unpardonable sin' and thus, their name is never marked out.

 

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said we can blaspheme the Son of Man, but blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is unpardonable. Jesus was basically saying that people can attribute His miracles to satan while He was still on earth, and still have the opportunity to put faith in Him at a later date, but to die attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to satan is, basically, satanism / atheism. We know what happens when an atheist dies without putting their faith in Christ.

 

No, actually we don't have to read that into a verse where it isn't present. I have no doubt David went to heaven. However, it seems quite obvious that David was just speaking about the grave here, not an eternal destination.

A somewhat compelling case for all babies going to heaven can be made from other passages, but using this one to support it is reading into Scripture, in my opinion. It's no better than using what Ecclesiastes 3:18-20 says about humans and beasts going to the same place after they die to claim that all animals go to heaven.

Which verse/translation are you reading that has David saying he will see his child? It's not in 2 Samuel 12:23.

 

No...you are reading into this passage that David is referring to the grave (sheol). The hebrew word sheol is not found in this verse. The only conclusion we can get then, is David is going to where his son is (and it's not the grave). For not reading into this passage, you sure read a lot into it!

Again, sheol (the grave) is not mentioned in this passage. I am eisegeting nothing.

I have never heard someone use Ecc. 3 to justify animals going to heaven. Now THATS reading into something that's not there, as the context is physical death (returning to dust).

 

I said there were two options. One is consistent with other similar passages (such as Genesis 37:35) while the other is not. That is why I prefer the interpretation that David is referring to Sheol.

Nor is heaven. Nor is David seeing his son.

Exactly! That's the context of 2 Samuel 12:21-23 too.

 

I don't think that the case of infant salvation can be made from the statement that David made. The text reads,

He said, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, 'Who knows whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?' But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me." (2 Samuel 12:22-23 ESV)

This says nothing of heaven at all. We can't read that into the text really either. The Hebrew people in that day did not have the same understanding of an afterlife that we have today. This is shown true from this verse from Psalm 9 (which was written by David)

The wicked shall return to Sheol, all the nations that forget God. (Psalms 9:17 ESV)

and also this statement in Ecclesiastes

For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 ESV)

What David was most likely referring to was "Sheol", the place of the dead. We always interpret that as Hell, but that is not what they understood it as. They had an understanding that said that when people died, all went to the same place. David was saying, in light of this, "My son can't be brought back to life, but I can die and be with him in the grave [Sheol, the place of the dead]."

We understand more fully now because of what Jesus revealed to us, but I don't think that we can Scripturally make a case for infant salvation from this passage of Scripture.

 

Looks like people beat me to my response...oops

 

Genesis 37:35 is talking about Jacob. Two totally separate instances, which do not mean one supports the other other than man has to die first.
But to play along, the text reads..."For I shall go down into the grave to my son in mourning." Going down into the grave....to my son. Not the same thing, but a sequence similar to baptism where the word baptism always followed the word believe. Jacob went to the grave, then to his son as did David. You still are reading more into the text than is there since "going down into the grave" is not found in 2 Samuel.

 

But there was no resurrection as we know it from the NT in David's time.

 

By the time of Jesus there were many controversies among the Jews, including over whether or not there would be a resurrection. Matthew 22:23-33 records the controversy, and also settles the answer to it for Christians.

Jesus revealed more than was known in Old Testament times.

 

Without the faith that God would send His Son to die and be resurrected, even in the OT, man would die eternally seperated and would not be saved. What did Abraham believe that God credited to him as "righteousness"? The OT points to Christ many times.

 

How is one born again? By grace through faith you are saved (born again). How is an infant to have faith? They can't. This is where "by grace" kicks in. Even with faith, if God had not extended His grace to man, we would all go to hell. You seriously believe God has sent every infant and aborted fetus to hell? This is not the characteristic of God, as "God is love".