R
RightFromWrong
Guest
LOOKS LIKE WEBDOG AND I HAVE HAD SIMILAR TEACHINGS.
We seem to agree on alot.
We seem to agree on alot.
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I think that until you know right from wrong you will not go to hell. You are born of coarse with the sinful nature but that dosent mean you know right from wrong. So yes I think that babies do go to heaven. I also had a little brother or sister miscarried so I know what it feels like.
Webdog,
I perceive that "Thou protesteth too much!"
Whether I " . . .seriously believe God has sent every infant and aborted fetus to hell?" is not the question or issue that I attempted to raise. At least I don't think it was?
I was only trying to shed some light on a couple of very important Biblical doctrines; i.e., eternal security of those who cannot believe before they have had a chance to rebel against our God and His Moral Law and die in that state, and God's demand that all repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ alone (solo Christos) for eternal salvation. More commonly know as being "born again."
If this is held in one hand, are we saying that God has negated the plain teaching of Scripture and set up another whole category or plan for those who die in infancy in the other hand? It is a connundrum, is it not?
I must ask the reason why you flared at me? What is your point? I have only now entered into the discussion. Are you having a bad day? Do questions that are difficult to answer confuse or confound you? Why would a well posed and well timed Biblical question upset you so? Please share with me and I will be sure not to do it again.
I CERTAINLY DO NOT HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS!!! But, I am neither ashamed or afraid of a good quality discussion amonsgt what I thought to be Christian gentlemen (and ladies).
I would apologize--but I really do not know what I have done to make you so upset?
sdg!
rd
I perceive that "Thou protesteth too much!"
Whether I " . . .seriously believe God has sent every infant and aborted fetus to hell?" is not the question or issue that I attempted to raise. At least I don't think it was?
I was only trying to shed some light on a couple of very important Biblical doctrines; i.e., eternal security of those who cannot believe before they have had a chance to rebel against our God and His Moral Law and die in that state, and God's demand that all repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ alone (solo Christos) for eternal salvation. More commonly know as being "born again."
If this is held in one hand, are we saying that God has negated the plain teaching of Scripture and set up another whole category or plan for those who die in infancy in the other hand? It is a connundrum, is it not?
I must ask the reason why you flared at me? What is your point? I have only now entered into the discussion. Are you having a bad day? Do questions that are difficult to answer confuse or confound you? Why would a well posed and well timed Biblical question upset you so? Please share with me and I will be sure not to do it again.
I CERTAINLY DO NOT HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS!!! But, I am neither ashamed or afraid of a good quality discussion amonsgt what I thought to be Christian gentlemen (and ladies).
I would apologize--but I really do not know what I have done to make you so upset?
sdg!
rd
WebDog,
I don't even remember offering my opinion. But, after you response, I am sure you are not interested in what I have to think.
sdg!
rd
I don't even remember offering my opinion. But, after you response, I am sure you are not interested in what I have to think.
sdg!
rd
What are you talking about?!? How did I "flame" you? I have been nothing but civil, and I am in a great mood today! I think this is the first time I have ever had any dialogue with you, and I respect your opinion. I'm not upset with anything you said, go back and reread my post. I only asked you a simple question. I'll go back and re-read my response to you, but I didn't think it was rude. If you took it that way, I apologize.
If it was the response from Ashleigh, that was not aimed at anyone in particular.
OK, here are my responses to you:
"Without the faith that God would send His Son to die and be resurrected, even in the OT, man would die eternally seperated and would not be saved. What did Abraham believe that God credited to him as "righteousness"? The OT points to Christ many times."
"How is one born again? By grace through faith you are saved (born again). How is an infant to have faith? They can't. This is where "by grace" kicks in. Even with faith, if God had not extended His grace to man, we would all go to hell. You seriously believe God has sent every infant and aborted fetus to hell? This is not the characteristic of God, as "God is love"."
How did I "flame" you? My point's are obvious, did not attack you in any way, did not upset or "confuse" me. Why not just answer the questions instead of attack me?
WebDog,
We have both apologized--although I do not know for what. I am indeed sorry for the misunderstanding. Please forgive!
sdg!
rd
We have both apologized--although I do not know for what. I am indeed sorry for the misunderstanding. Please forgive!
sdg!
rd
Why do you think that? I got a ticket last year. I didn't know that I was speeding but I was still guilty and I still had to pay the fine.
Read Romans 1-3 and ask yourself this - how could God let the sin of guilty babies go unpunished and still be just?
You may answer that Christ was punished for their sin. In that case, since he that does not believe is condemned already, how could a baby be saved if he cannot believe?
I do believe that babies who die are saved but I have different reasons for believing so.
You had said this:Originally posted by RightFromWrong:
Whatever.......YOU MADE NO SENSE AT ALL !
"Babies whether in the womb or to young cannot understand their sin and the Gospel message, so of course they GO TO HEAVEN."
I gave an example of some people who did not understand their sin but who God punished anyway. Ignorance does not prevent punishment. If babies go to heaven (and I believe that they do) then there must be another reason.
I am hesitant to do so, not because many will disagree, which they will, and that's fine; but because some will twist and misrepresent my words, which is not fine. But here goes.
I believe that all who are (or will be) in heaven have sinned, and they have all fallen short of the glory of God, and they are all justified by God's grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
I believe that God is more merciful to us than we are to ourselves. What I mean is that more people will be saved if God chooses who will believe, than would be saved if each of us chose for ourselves whether to believe.
I believe that God chooses those who die before birth or in infancy and grants that they would believe, even though that faith cannot be expressed in ways that we are familiar with.
I will not argue that last point with anyone. I confess that there is much about this issue that I do not understand, and I could be completely wrong. But I do not see any warrant for resting our hopes on the infants' ignorance of their sin. I think the mercy of God is a much better resting place for our hopes.
Pinoybaptist,
Judged by their works at the GWT? Only the wicked dead are judged by their works and ALL are condemned! No one will ever be justified on the basis of their works, only condemned by them. The checking the Book of Life for their names in only to further confirm their just condemnation. The Book of Life is another issue. Saw the other thread, haven’t read yet. Question is, how do you get your name in the book, or are all names in the book and then some blotted out if they die without being covered by the blood? Sure, we all know that we are saved by grace through faith, anyone have a passage that says this is how you get your name in the book? Or that this is the only way to get your name in the book?
Re the Enoch, Elijah, and must hear the name of Christ to be saved, are you kidding? David had not heard the name of Christ. The twelve could not preach the death, burial and resurrection till after it had happened. Men of all ages are saved by faith. That faith always involves, in some way, the shedding of blood. BUT, the CONTENT of the faith is different in different ages! Thought when you mentioned Enoch and Elijah you were going to talk about it being “appointed for men once to die”. Did not at all follow where you took that one.
Oh, do not want to forget to mention that I do seem to agree with your conclusions that babies are somehow covered by the blood of Jesus and therefore in Heaven. See other thread on “What did Jesus mean” for some of what is said here and for some more as well.
OLDREG,
Thanks for the links to Al Mohler’s comments. Right on target.
Everybody should go read those!
Webdog,
Yep, I agree, David meant Heaven. See my post on other thread...
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/3094/14.html
Mercury,
Re David “seeing” his child, see above referenced post as well. David had a hope of conscious reunion.
Rightfromwrong,
Are you suggesting that Mark 3 teaches the universal salvation of all mankind? Except those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit? Certainly not...
Webdog,
“Without the faith that God would send His Son to die and be resurrected”... YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING?!?!?! EVEN THE TWELVE DID NOT UNDERSTAND THIS!!! ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT OT SALVATION WAS BASED ON FAITH IN THE DEATH OF JESUS???
You gotta show some kind of Scripture that says the OT saints understood this and believed it!!!
Never gonna find em.... They are not there. Sure I know all about Psa 16, 22 and Isa 53. But you cannot even show me that David or Isaiah understood all that was involved or even any that was involved regarding the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus. IT IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE THAT OT SAINTS WERE SAVED BY FAITH IN LOOKING AHEAD TO THE CROSS!!!! NOT EVEN THE TWELVE DID THAT UNTIL AFTER THE CROSS!!!
Whatever,
Where is human responsibility in your last point? Not trying to debate it here, I think we agree about much, but God’s Sovereignty is not in conflict with human responsibility and though God chooses, so do we. It is a paradox. If God chooses, how can we choose? If we choose, how did God choose? Both cannot be true, yet both are, according to Scripture. To emphasize one to the neglect of the other is to present an imbalanced and distorted view of both sovereignty and grace.
And that is all I have to say ‘bout that. Well, at least for now.
Ray
Judged by their works at the GWT? Only the wicked dead are judged by their works and ALL are condemned! No one will ever be justified on the basis of their works, only condemned by them. The checking the Book of Life for their names in only to further confirm their just condemnation. The Book of Life is another issue. Saw the other thread, haven’t read yet. Question is, how do you get your name in the book, or are all names in the book and then some blotted out if they die without being covered by the blood? Sure, we all know that we are saved by grace through faith, anyone have a passage that says this is how you get your name in the book? Or that this is the only way to get your name in the book?
Re the Enoch, Elijah, and must hear the name of Christ to be saved, are you kidding? David had not heard the name of Christ. The twelve could not preach the death, burial and resurrection till after it had happened. Men of all ages are saved by faith. That faith always involves, in some way, the shedding of blood. BUT, the CONTENT of the faith is different in different ages! Thought when you mentioned Enoch and Elijah you were going to talk about it being “appointed for men once to die”. Did not at all follow where you took that one.
Oh, do not want to forget to mention that I do seem to agree with your conclusions that babies are somehow covered by the blood of Jesus and therefore in Heaven. See other thread on “What did Jesus mean” for some of what is said here and for some more as well.
OLDREG,
Thanks for the links to Al Mohler’s comments. Right on target.
Everybody should go read those!
Webdog,
Yep, I agree, David meant Heaven. See my post on other thread...
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/3094/14.html
Mercury,
Re David “seeing” his child, see above referenced post as well. David had a hope of conscious reunion.
Rightfromwrong,
Are you suggesting that Mark 3 teaches the universal salvation of all mankind? Except those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit? Certainly not...
Webdog,
“Without the faith that God would send His Son to die and be resurrected”... YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING?!?!?! EVEN THE TWELVE DID NOT UNDERSTAND THIS!!! ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT OT SALVATION WAS BASED ON FAITH IN THE DEATH OF JESUS???
You gotta show some kind of Scripture that says the OT saints understood this and believed it!!!
Never gonna find em.... They are not there. Sure I know all about Psa 16, 22 and Isa 53. But you cannot even show me that David or Isaiah understood all that was involved or even any that was involved regarding the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus. IT IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE THAT OT SAINTS WERE SAVED BY FAITH IN LOOKING AHEAD TO THE CROSS!!!! NOT EVEN THE TWELVE DID THAT UNTIL AFTER THE CROSS!!!
Whatever,
Where is human responsibility in your last point? Not trying to debate it here, I think we agree about much, but God’s Sovereignty is not in conflict with human responsibility and though God chooses, so do we. It is a paradox. If God chooses, how can we choose? If we choose, how did God choose? Both cannot be true, yet both are, according to Scripture. To emphasize one to the neglect of the other is to present an imbalanced and distorted view of both sovereignty and grace.
And that is all I have to say ‘bout that. Well, at least for now.
Ray
APuritanMindset
New Member
What about in a culture where right and wrong are different from a Christian right and wrong and they never hear the Bible's truth? Do they go to heaven since they don't really know right from wrong? Romans says,
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (Romans 1:20 ESV)
We would say that the people in that culture are condemned because they are without excuse. Why doesn't the same hold true for infants?
I'm not saying I believe they go to hell. I tend to lean toward the answer of "God knows what is best and He won't do anything that is unjust in His eyes." But this is something that needs to be taken into consideration in the instance of infant salvation.
R
RightFromWrong
Guest
Whatever I never saw such a list.
Please tell ?
Please tell ?
You had said this:Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RightFromWrong:
Whatever.......YOU MADE NO SENSE AT ALL !
"Babies whether in the womb or to young cannot understand their sin and the Gospel message, so of course they GO TO HEAVEN."
I gave an example of some people who did not understand their sin but who God punished anyway. Ignorance does not prevent punishment. If babies go to heaven (and I believe that they do) then there must be another reason. </font>[/QUOTE]That is what I was meaning
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