O Palmer Robertson has a great book on Covenants although its Presb and must be read through a lens
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Who Holds To Covenant theology here?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
I know it sounds problematic, especially to Dispensationalists. However, it does not teach a works-based salvation. That is what Dispensationalists jump on without evening knowing what the Covenant of Works is.
The Covenant of Works is a term used to describe God's covenant with man, pre-fall.
Most Baptists believe that.
Most Baptists do not believe in a pre-fall Covenant of Works and a Covenant of Redemption (Grace). They affirm the Noahic Covenant, Abrahamic Covenant, Sinaitic Covenant, Old Covenant, Davidic Covenant, and the New Covenant. Since most Baptists are Dispensational, their view of the covenants is subservient to Dispensationalism.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Even dispensationalism is a loaded term. That really doesn't tell you anything about what that person actually believes.
I don't know we can say "most Baptists" without entering dangerous territory.
But my experience is most Baptists (that I have encountered) are between Dispensationalism and Covenant theology. They believe in dispensation and covenants, acknowledge a difference in ages and that God has worked within covenantal relationships, but shy away from being strongly dogmatic in defining either in terms of the overall framework of God's interaction with man.
That is about where I am as well.
But my experience is most Baptists (that I have encountered) are between Dispensationalism and Covenant theology. They believe in dispensation and covenants, acknowledge a difference in ages and that God has worked within covenantal relationships, but shy away from being strongly dogmatic in defining either in terms of the overall framework of God's interaction with man.
That is about where I am as well.
David, there are some basic beliefs that most Dispensationalists agree on. Most see a separation between Israel and the Church. Most hold to a pre-wrath view of eschatology and a literal 1000 year millennial kingdom before the final judgment. In between all of that are various levels of Dispensationalism. You have the classic form of Dispensationalism promulgated by Scofield and Chafer. There is the radical Dispensationalist view of John Hagee. There is Progressive Dispensationalism than emanated out of Dallas Theological Seminary. So, Dispensationalists have their own intramural fights which are interesting to watch.
Jon, come on now. Are we really to believe that the majority of Baptists are not Dispensational; that they do not believe in a rapture? I think that is obvious to all.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
They actually have names for this.
Progressive Dispensationalism (if you lean more dispensational) and Progressive Covenantalism (if you lean more CT).
I believe you have to be somewhere in the middle of Dispy and CT in order to actually be biblical and I have stated that for a long time.
No. That's what I have experienced (I have not met most Baptists yet
).Think of it this way - both systems began with (or, more correctly, was developed as we know it today as these two systems) Calvinism. Dispensationalism with the Plymouth Brethren and Covenant theology among Presbyterians.
What precisely did church members believe prior to the articulation of these systems into more precise doctrines?
I believe most Baptists believe in a rapture (again, my experience) but not because of Dispensationalism. Most I have encountered view two ages (the Old Testament and the New Testament/ Old Covenant and New Covenant/ Adam and Second Adam) - like Augustine "two cities" and Luther's "two kingdoms".
I have always considered myself inbetween. I see covenants and dispensation but shy away from saying one defines how God works with mankind (at least at the exclusion of the other). But I am not proficient on this topic.
I refer you to post #24 in this thread. It is not that Dispensationalists do not believe in covenants. They do. But they do not base their theology on covenants; or more accurately, their view of covenants is subservient to their specific brand of Dispensationalism.
The attached diagram provides an overview of Baptist Covenant Theology. I hope it helps in explaining things.
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Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
A major problem I have with CT is that it is adding covenants that are there by inference and not actually listed in Scripture itself. I am fully aware that the same argument can be made for facets of dispensationalism depending on the point you fall in the dispensational spectrum.I refer you to post #24 in this thread. It is not that Dispensationalists do not believe in covenants. They do. But they do not base their theology on covenants; or more accurately, their view of covenants is subservient to their specific brand of Dispensationalism.
The attached diagram provides an overview of Baptist Covenant Theology. I hope it helps in explaining things.
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Thanks. That helps.I refer you to post #24 in this thread. It is not that Dispensationalists do not believe in covenants. They do. But they do not base their theology on covenants; or more accurately, their view of covenants is subservient to their specific brand of Dispensationalism.
The attached diagram provides an overview of Baptist Covenant Theology. I hope it helps in explaining things.
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Personally I view the Abrahamic Covenant as primary (with other covenants spokes supporting that wheel) in terms of redemption. But like I say, this is not a topic in which I claim expertise.
No. That's what I have experienced (I have not met most Baptists yet
You do not get out much, do you?
Most Baptist believed in a form of Covenant Theology prior to Fundamentalism came into being in the late 19th and into the early 20th-centuries. Under Scofield and Chafer Dispensationalism spread through Baptist churches in North America like wildfire.
A pre-wrath eschatology is dispensational. Have you ever read Walvrood, Pentecost, or Ryrie? Almost all Baptist or Baptistic seminaries in the United States teach Dispensationalism. They may teach different flavors of it but they remain true to the system's main belief.
I have already made that point. Most Baptists affirm the Old and New Covenants. That is totally different than affirming the Covenant of Works and the Covenant of Redemption.
Hey! Our salvation does not depend on either Dispensationalism or Covenant of Theology. I do think it affects our understanding of theology proper and is worthy of debate and discussion but it is an area on which we should extend charity.
Well, this is why our paedobaptism brethren are paedobaptists. They believe in the continuity of the Abrahamic Covenant. This view directly impacts their view of the New Covenant. According to paedobaptists, the New Covenant is just a refreshed version of the Abrahamic Covenant. Another way of saying it is that the New Covenant is a new and improved version of the Abrahamic Covenant. That is how they logically connect circumcision and baptism as signs of the covenant. The apply the sign to all of their infants. Baptists have always held to a discontinuity of the Abrahamic Covenant. The New Covenant really is new and it is made not with national Israel but with the people of God through faith.
I do not travel far to attend churches and all of my experience in regards to what I have seen Baptists teach is within SBC churches, if that is what you are asking.
You speak of belief in a pre-trib rapture as being dispensational. Do you mean like the New Covenant is Covenantal? If so, I agree.
I believe both systems have merit but neither are satisfactory in and of themselves.
I do as well. I believe we are the children of the promise and the people God spoke of in the covenant. I view Christ as this seed of Abraham (singular) and us as the "many brethren". So I do not see the New Covenant as a renewal but as what is promised within the Abrahamic Covenant.
No. A pre-wrath eschatology is a hallmark of the Dispensationalism system. That view is not typically found in Covenant Theology. As far as the Dispensational view of the covenants, see my posts #24, #32, #35, and #37. It is not the same as the covenants under Covenant Theology.
But it is not dependent on Dispensationalism. It is dependent on a different ages but not Dispensationalism as a system.