Who is Drawing?

[Pastor_Bob]

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This verse has been used countless times in conversation both here and face-to-face with my Calvinist brothers. It is used anytime the discussion turns to Unconditional Election or Irresistible Grace. I will immediately concede that I believe the Father does indeed draw men to the Lord Jesus Christ. And, I will go so far as to say that NO MAN can be saved unless the Father draws him.

Then, we read in John 12:32, "[Jesus said] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
The Bible is clear that Jesus also draws men to Himself. So, how can the two verses be reconciled? One verse says the Father draws and no man can come to Jesus unless this happens. Then, Jesus says, "I will draw men to me."

The only possible way, in my opinion, to reconcile this seeming contradiction is the fact that God draws ALL men and Jesus draws ALL men.

I believe the sovereign will of God is that each and every sinner that believes on Christ will be saved.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me [this is the Father drawing], that every one which seeth the Son [this is the Son drawing], and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The argument immediately turns to, "If God draws ALL men then ALL men will be saved." Verse 40 clearly teaches that this is not the case. Though all men are drawn, not all men believe.

 

[HankD]

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This verse has been used countless times in conversation both here and face-to-face with my Calvinist brothers. It is used anytime the discussion turns to Unconditional Election or Irresistible Grace. I will immediately concede that I believe the Father does indeed draw men to the Lord Jesus Christ. And, I will go so far as to say that NO MAN can be saved unless the Father draws him.

Then, we read in John 12:32, "[Jesus said] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
The Bible is clear that Jesus also draws men to Himself. So, how can the two verses be reconciled? One verse says the Father draws and no man can come to Jesus unless this happens. Then, Jesus says, "I will draw men to me."

The only possible way, in my opinion, to reconcile this seeming contradiction is the fact that God draws ALL men and Jesus draws ALL men.

I believe the sovereign will of God is that each and every sinner that believes on Christ will be saved.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me [this is the Father drawing], that every one which seeth the Son [this is the Son drawing], and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The argument immediately turns to, "If God draws ALL men then ALL men will be saved." Verse 40 clearly teaches that this is not the case. Though all men are drawn, not all men believe.

I would like to hear the Calvinist brothers rebuttal, one including the following passage;

1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[glad4mercy]

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This verse has been used countless times in conversation both here and face-to-face with my Calvinist brothers. It is used anytime the discussion turns to Unconditional Election or Irresistible Grace. I will immediately concede that I believe the Father does indeed draw men to the Lord Jesus Christ. And, I will go so far as to say that NO MAN can be saved unless the Father draws him.

Then, we read in John 12:32, "[Jesus said] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
The Bible is clear that Jesus also draws men to Himself. So, how can the two verses be reconciled? One verse says the Father draws and no man can come to Jesus unless this happens. Then, Jesus says, "I will draw men to me."

The only possible way, in my opinion, to reconcile this seeming contradiction is the fact that God draws ALL men and Jesus draws ALL men.

I believe the sovereign will of God is that each and every sinner that believes on Christ will be saved.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me [this is the Father drawing], that every one which seeth the Son [this is the Son drawing], and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The argument immediately turns to, "If God draws ALL men then ALL men will be saved." Verse 40 clearly teaches that this is not the case. Though all men are drawn, not all men believe.

A. Everyone who learns from the Father comes to Jesus.

B. Flesh and blood has not revealed it, but the Father has revealed it

C. No one knows the Son save the Father. No one knows the Father except the Son, and the ones the Son wills to reveal Him

So the Father reveals Christ to us, and Christ in turn reveals the Father to us.

No man has seen God at any time. The only begotten who is in the bosom of the Father has declared Him.

So the Father draws us to Jesus and Jesus brings us to the Father.

 

[Reformed]

Bob,

Forgive the expression but "the devil is in the details".

When we discuss "calling" in the Bible, we need to understand exactly what type of calling the context supports. In John 6:44 the call of the Father is salvific in nature. In Monergistic theology, this is referred to as the effectual call. It is referred to as such because the call of the Father results in the salvation of the one being called. We know this because of the last part of John 6:44, when Jesus says, "and I will raise him up on the last day". Only believers will be resurrected to life.

So, what about John 12? In order to understand Jesus' words in John 12:32, it is necessary to ask who Jesus is speaking to. Jesus is speaking to Greeks (John 12:20). While these may have been Hellenistic Jews, they were still from a gentile nation. Hellenistic Jews were not treated equally by ethnic Jews. They were second-class citizens, which is ironic because ethnic Jews were considered second-class citizens by the ruling Romans. The Greeks heard the voice of out of heaven (John 12:28). Jesus responded by saying, "This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes" (v. 30). How was this voice for the sake of the Greeks? What did Jesus mean by that? In verse 32 we read, "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." Jesus was referring to His impending crucifixion but he was also introducing a different type of calling. This call was not specifically the effectual call of John 6:44. This call was the inclusion of Gentiles, which was much to the chagrin of ethnic Jews. This was an amplification of John 3:16. For God so loved the world. The meaning of that could not have been lost on Nicodemus. In John 3, Jesus was telling Nicodemus that God intended to reconcile the world (Jew and Gentile), not just Jews (c.f. 2 Corinthians 5:19).

 

[glad4mercy]

Bob,

Forgive the expression but "the devil is in the details".

When we discuss "calling" in the Bible, we need to understand exactly what type of calling the context supports. In John 6:44 the call of the Father is salvific in nature. In Monergistic theology, this is referred to as the effectual call. It is referred to as such because the call of the Father results in the salvation of the one being called. We know this because of the last part of John 6:44, when Jesus says, "and I will raise him up on the last day". Only believers will be resurrected to life.

So, what about John 12? In order to understand Jesus' words in John 12:32, it is necessary to ask who Jesus is speaking to. Jesus is speaking to Greeks (John 12:20). While these may have been Hellenistic Jews, they were still from a gentile nation. Hellenistic Jews were not treated equally by ethnic Jews. They were second-class citizens, which is ironic because ethnic Jews were considered second-class citizens by the ruling Romans. The Greeks heard the voice of out of heaven (John 12:28). Jesus responded by saying, "This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes" (v. 30). How was this voice for the sake of the Greeks? What did Jesus mean by that? In verse 32 we read, "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." Jesus was referring to His impending crucifixion but he was also introducing a different type of calling. This call was not specifically the effectual call of John 6:44. This call was the inclusion of Gentiles, which was much to the chagrin of ethnic Jews. This was an amplification of John 3:16. For God so loved the world. The meaning of that could not have been lost on Nicodemus. In John 3, Jesus was telling Nicodemus that God intended to reconcile the world (Jew and Gentile), not just Jews (c.f. 2 Corinthians 5:19).

The ones who are drawn and come to Jesus will be raised up on the last day.

A. Nowhere does it say in John 6 that everyone who is drawn will come.

B. Nowhere does it say that those who did not come would never be drawn

C It is speaking of ability. No one can come unless they are drawn

D some that were not drawn and did not come during Jesus' earthly ministry were drawn and came after the resurrection

E. So it is possible for a person to not be drawn today to be drawn tommorow

F. God draws all men, but not necessarily at all times

 

[HankD]

The ones who are drawn and come to Jesus will be raised up on the last day.

A. Nowhere does it say in John 6 that everyone who is drawn will come.

B. Nowhere does it say that those who did not come would never be drawn

C It is speaking of ability. No one can come unless they are drawn

D some that were not drawn and did not come during Jesus' earthly ministry were drawn and came after the resurrection

E. So it is possible for a person to not be drawn today to be drawn tommorow

F. God draws all men, but not necessarily at all times

Good line of reasoning.
But IMO sometimes human logic just doesn't work with the way God does things.

 

[glad4mercy]

Good line of reasoning.
But IMO sometimes human logic just doesn't work with the way God does things.

It's not merely human logic. All the points can be supported by scripture, except a couple points should be revised because worded incorrectly.

Point A. All who are drawn do come, but it is because they not only hear, but they also learn of God. The drawn and drawing spoken of here are those who BY DIVINE ILLUMINATION heartily come to know their fallen estate and to whom Christ is fully revealed. (He will reproved their world of sin (our estate apart from Christ), righteousness ( that is the righteousness which is of God, through faith) and judgement.

This would also present a need to reform point f to say the Spirit convicts/reproved all, but in some it results in them being drawn and in others it results in hardening.

I am pretty sure I can back all this up with scripture, as that is what I am basing my answers on. My previous error was confusing conviction with drawing. All are convicted, but drawing involves more than conviction.

More later, or if someone wants to discuss...

 

[HankD]

It's not merely human logic. All the points can be supported by scripture, except a couple points should be revised because worded incorrectly. Point A. All who are drawn do come, but it is because they not only hear, but they also learn of God. The drawn and drawing spoken of here are those who BY DIVINE ILLUMINATION heartily come to know their fallen estate and to whom Christ is fully revealed. (He will reproved their world of sin (our estate apart from Christ), righteousness ( that is the righteousness which is of God, through faith) and judgement.

This would also present a need to reform point f to say the Spirit convicts all, but not at all times, and conviction can be resisted and rejected.

The Spirit convicts/reproved all, but in some it results in them being drawn and in others it results in hardening.

I do like the middle voice rationale method that scripture presents:

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

 

[TCassidy]

But IMO sometimes human logic just doesn't work with the way God does things.

Yes, Hank, but words mean things.

 

[HankD]

Yes, Hank, but words mean things.

agreed, but words beyond the inspired words of scripture can get one in trouble.

 

[utilyan]

James 4

8Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.....


What does that mean guys?

 

[TCassidy]

agreed, but words beyond the inspired words of scripture can get one in trouble.

My point was that God, and by implication His word, is not illogical. It may, on the surface, seem illogical, and even contradictory (IE "the first shall be last," etc.) but upon close examination we see that it is neither illogical nor contradictory.

 

[HankD]

My point was that God, and by implication His word, is not illogical. It may, on the surface, seem illogical, and even contradictory (IE "the first shall be last," etc.) but upon close examination we see that it is neither illogical nor contradictory.

Understood.
My point - by example (on different platforms) of even close examination:

The Trinity defies the laws of metaphysics (Three are one, not just "one" but "one" in essence).

The Virgin Birth defies the laws of human biology.

Omnipotent God "repents" (was "sorry" ) and was grieved in Genesis 6:6 and other places.

Yes, all of these (and many other places of difficulty of our understanding) have "answers"
e.g. Genesis 6:6 is an "anthropomorphism" Hmm, sounds like neo-orthodoxy.

IMO the answers seemed often to be "canned" (as others have pointed out) that give an answer for the sake of having an answer and for me detract from my sense the awesomeness of God.
If I let it. But I am good at canned answers

I think its unavoidable and IMO was the root of Job's difficulties (Where were you when...? Job 38).

My opinion/feelings/difficulties of course .

 

[TCassidy]

The Trinity defies the laws of metaphysics

I disagree. Metaphysics, by definition, deals with such abstract concepts as being, knowing, substance, cause, identity, time, and space, and God is the uncaused first cause, and exists apart from time and space, He does not defy the laws of metaphysics, but rather transcends them..

Virgin Birth defies the laws of human biology

This one is a little more difficult. But we know that parthenogenesis happens in the animal world (but naturally occurring is always XX -> XX) and that the Y chromosome is an X chromosome with the lower right long arm (4) removed.
It seems to me that the virgin birth was simply the removal of the lower right long arm of the chromosome to accomplish God's purpose.

God "repents" (was "sorry") in Genesis 6:6

God cannot change (Mal 3:6; James 1:17); but, by language suited to our nature and experience, He is described as about to alter His visible procedure towards mankind - from being merciful and long-suffering, He was about to show Himself a God of judgment; and, as our sinful race had filled up the measure of their iniquities, He was about to introduce a terrible display of His justice.

Anthropomorphisms can be difficult to understand fully but as with all such illustrations, they are only meant to convey a single thought and ought not to be made to "walk on all fours" as Dr. Vanhetlo, one of my seminary professors, used to say.

 

[HankD]

I disagree. Metaphysics, by definition, deals with such abstract concepts as being, knowing, substance, cause, identity, time, and space, and God is the uncaused first cause, and exists apart from time and space, He does not defy the laws of metaphysics, but rather transcends them..

This one is a little more difficult. But we know that parthenogenesis happens in the animal world (but naturally occurring is always XX -> XX) and that the Y chromosome is an X chromosome with the lower right long arm (4) removed. View attachment 2142
It seems to me that the virgin birth was simply the removal of the lower right long arm of the chromosome to accomplish God's purpose.
God cannot change (Mal 3:6; James 1:17); but, by language suited to our nature and experience, He is described as about to alter His visible procedure towards mankind - from being merciful and long-suffering, He was about to show Himself a God of judgment; and, as our sinful race had filled up the measure of their iniquities, He was about to introduce a terrible display of His justice.

Anthropomorphisms can be difficult to understand fully but as with all such illustrations, they are only meant to convey a single thought and ought not to be made to "walk on all fours" as Dr. Vanhetlo, one of my seminary professors, used to say.

Tom, I had to edit my post as I inadvertently posted it before ending it.

But if He alters His visible procedure towards mankind wouldn't that alteration also impact His visible demonstration of mercy and longsuffering?
Aren't they all in the same package of the character/persona of God?

parthenogenesis does not produce a male as you pointed out and as far as I know can only work up to the biological level of birds.

"Transcends" a word I could not find in scripture or the ECF writings - maybe wrong about that do you know of any who used it?

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

anyway I really do appreciate your "answers" at a certain level

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Thanks for the ammo
HankD

 

[Dave G]

Post to an old thread, but I'm reading through them and throwing in some thoughts:

The only possible way, in my opinion, to reconcile this seeming contradiction is the fact that God draws ALL men and Jesus draws ALL men.

At this point, without resorting to an assumption, I'd have to disagree because of the following:



" No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." ( John 6:44 )

The first thing I see when I read this passage is that no man can come to Christ unless they are "drawn" by the Father.
The second thing I see when I read this, is that no man can come to Christ unless they are drawn by the Father.
The third thing I see when read this, is that no man can come to Christ unless they are drawn by the Father.
The fourth thing I see when i read this is, that those that are drawn will be raised up at the last day.



I see quite a few details that are answered and are referenced in other Scriptures, but I'll try to keep it simple:

1) No man can come to Christ unless they are drawn = "inability" or lack of desire, unwillingness or outright rebellion due to love of sin and not wanting Jesus to reprove us for our sins ( Romans 1:18-32, John 3:19-20 ).

2) No man can come to Christ unless they are drawn = "belief" of the Gospel. Why?

" And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." ( John 6:35-37 )

"Coming to Christ" and "believing on Him" are the same thing.

3) No man can come to Christ unless they are drawn by the Father = Whatever "drawing" is being done here, it results in a person coming to Christ in belief, and that drawing is done by the Father.



Contrast all of this with what is found here:

" And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me." ( John 12:32 )

Firstly, the verse, if isolated from the text around it, could mistakenly be used to somehow "refute" the details of John 6:44, but to me, it cannot. There is a contradiction found when comparing the two passages, which I'm sure some have already noticed.

Secondly, notice that the word "men" is in italics in the AV, so is not strictly part of the text.
When read properly, it reads, " And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [] unto me."

"All" who?

Good question, IMO. To help figure this out, I "widened" the text a bit to see if I could get some more context:

" Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die."

He's making reference to His death on the cross, being "lifted up". So I went over to John 19 and the other accounts of the crucifixion and read carefully, noticing who was there at His death. According to Matthew chapter 27, Mark 15 and Luke 23, there were Roman soldiers ( undoubtedly out of many provinces ), Jews of Israel, Pharisees ( the chief priests and some scribes ), a couple of criminals, and His disciples. To me, a fair mix of people, mostly Jews.

The type of death He suffered brought many peoples to see it; A spectacle to be sure, since His reputation for 3 years had grown so much, as I see it.



So, the "all" is answered depending on your individual understandings of Scripture;

For you "Calvinists", there's that "all kinds or sorts" of men, or "all" meaning both Jews and Gentiles.
For you "non-Calvinists", the "all" is basically left unanswered ( except to plug in an assumption ) due to my last statement in this post. **

Some would say my first choice "plugs in an assumption", but that is for you to decide.


Then there's another theory I have, but it's even more of a stretch:
He's talking about His elect, but that would definitely have to be read into it and understood from other passages.



No matter how one reads John 12:32, one thing is for certain, at least to me...

No matter what type of "drawing" is being done in this passage, it cannot be the same as the type being accomplished in John 6:44...which, on a side note, also accomplishes a sure thing; Those that are drawn will be raised up at the last day because He promises to.

Why?

** Because in order for a person to come to Christ in belief, that type of "drawing" must be done by His Father, not Him. Therefore, Jesus and His Father cannot both be doing the "drawing" that results in a person coming to Him in belief, unless Jesus is technically lying in John 6:44.

...and we all know that He is not a liar.


May God bless you all.

 

[jeremiah1five]

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This verse has been used countless times in conversation both here and face-to-face with my Calvinist brothers. It is used anytime the discussion turns to Unconditional Election or Irresistible Grace. I will immediately concede that I believe the Father does indeed draw men to the Lord Jesus Christ. And, I will go so far as to say that NO MAN can be saved unless the Father draws him.

Then, we read in John 12:32, "[Jesus said] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
The Bible is clear that Jesus also draws men to Himself. So, how can the two verses be reconciled? One verse says the Father draws and no man can come to Jesus unless this happens. Then, Jesus says, "I will draw men to me."

The only possible way, in my opinion, to reconcile this seeming contradiction is the fact that God draws ALL men and Jesus draws ALL men.

I believe the sovereign will of God is that each and every sinner that believes on Christ will be saved.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me [this is the Father drawing], that every one which seeth the Son [this is the Son drawing], and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The argument immediately turns to, "If God draws ALL men then ALL men will be saved." Verse 40 clearly teaches that this is not the case. Though all men are drawn, not all men believe.

Hello Pastor_Bob.
The Scripture was written TO and FOR those in Covenant with God ONLY.

The "all men" is in context to this Covenant. Meaning "all men" whose names are written by God in the book of life of the lamb slain from [BEFORE] the foundation (creation) of the world.

All God is doing in TIME is preparing BODIES to go with those names.

Be careful with words like "all" "every" "world" and the like.

Read the Scripture as it was intended: those in Covenant (and those who will be called to Covenant).

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Hello Pastor_Bob.
The Scripture was written TO and FOR those in Covenant with God ONLY.

Hello, my friend.
You and I are going to have major disagreements in this area. But, that makes for a livelier discussion! Welcome to the Baptist Board!

 

[Revmitchell]

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This verse has been used countless times in conversation both here and face-to-face with my Calvinist brothers. It is used anytime the discussion turns to Unconditional Election or Irresistible Grace. I will immediately concede that I believe the Father does indeed draw men to the Lord Jesus Christ. And, I will go so far as to say that NO MAN can be saved unless the Father draws him.

Then, we read in John 12:32, "[Jesus said] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
The Bible is clear that Jesus also draws men to Himself. So, how can the two verses be reconciled? One verse says the Father draws and no man can come to Jesus unless this happens. Then, Jesus says, "I will draw men to me."

The only possible way, in my opinion, to reconcile this seeming contradiction is the fact that God draws ALL men and Jesus draws ALL men.

I believe the sovereign will of God is that each and every sinner that believes on Christ will be saved.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me [this is the Father drawing], that every one which seeth the Son [this is the Son drawing], and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The argument immediately turns to, "If God draws ALL men then ALL men will be saved." Verse 40 clearly teaches that this is not the case. Though all men are drawn, not all men believe.

The better question is who is being drawn? The context is the disciples

 

[jeremiah1five]

Hello, my friend.
You and I are going to have major disagreements in this area. But, that makes for a livelier discussion! Welcome to the Baptist Board!

Thank you, Pastor_Bob.
I have a thread in the Arminian/Calvinism board. That a read.
Thanks.