Who is Drawing?

[Katarina Von Bora]

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John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This verse has been used countless times in conversation both here and face-to-face with my Calvinist brothers. It is used anytime the discussion turns to Unconditional Election or Irresistible Grace. I will immediately concede that I believe the Father does indeed draw men to the Lord Jesus Christ. And, I will go so far as to say that NO MAN can be saved unless the Father draws him.

Then, we read in John 12:32, "[Jesus said] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
The Bible is clear that Jesus also draws men to Himself. So, how can the two verses be reconciled? One verse says the Father draws and no man can come to Jesus unless this happens. Then, Jesus says, "I will draw men to me."

The only possible way, in my opinion, to reconcile this seeming contradiction is the fact that God draws ALL men and Jesus draws ALL men.

I believe the sovereign will of God is that each and every sinner that believes on Christ will be saved.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me [this is the Father drawing], that every one which seeth the Son [this is the Son drawing], and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The argument immediately turns to, "If God draws ALL men then ALL men will be saved." Verse 40 clearly teaches that this is not the case. Though all men are drawn, not all men believe.

Hello Pastor Bob.

John 12:32 does indeed say "I will draw all man". The Greek here is 'pas'

Greek lexicon:

pas

Pronunciation

pä's (Key)


Part of Speech

adjective

Root Word (Etymology)

Including all the forms of declension

TDNT Reference

5:886,795

Vines

View Entry

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. individually

1. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

2. collectively

1. some of all types


Ergo, "all" in this verse does not apply to every single person who ever lived or will live.

The 'all' is collective and thus refers to all types of people. Some people say every tribe, tongue and nation.

The only remaining possibility is that salvation is universal. We know that's not true.

God Bless

 

[jeremiah1five]

If I may...

The word "all" and those like it are in context to who is being addressed, in other words, those in Covenant (those who are saved.).
Words like "all" and "every" and "world" are in context to believers in Covenant with God.

Here is the word "all" in another verse:

Mark 1:5 (KJV)
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Surely the "all" cannot mean "all" those 70 (or72) men of the Sanhedrin, and Herod who would have him (John) jailed and murdered.

I hope this helps.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Ergo, "all" in this verse does not apply to every single person who ever lived or will live.

The 'all' is collective and thus refers to all types of people. Some people say every tribe, tongue and nation.

Hi, Katrina. Thank you for this information. I appreciate your kind, friendly spirit.

I try to interpret this passage in light of other passages on the subject.

Matthew 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
I cannot fathom Jesus saying that it is His Father's will that some of these children perish.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
"Every man" seems to be all-inclusive.

I Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
The will of God seems to be very clear here.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
I certainly do not claim to understand it fully, but I accept this inspired Scripture to mean exactly what it says.

I Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Again, the will of God seems to be very clear here.

In my humble opinion, these and other passages do away with unconditional election, limited atonement, and irresistible grace.

 

[Dave G]

Bob,
Obviously I'm not Katarina, but I'd like to reply to some of the verses you've posted above.
This may be a bit lengthy, but I'll try to keep it as short as possible.

I'd like to start with the first one you listed:

" Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish." ( Matthew 18:14 )

Who are "these little ones" in this verse?
To determine that, I'd like to widen the passage to take in more of what the Lord has to say:

"At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that [sheep], than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish." ( Matthew 18:1-14 )


The disciples came to Jesus with a question..."who is the greatest in the kingdom of Heaven?"
Jesus then calls a little child to Him, and sets the child down in the midst of them...to use as an example.

He then explains that except a person be converted ( born again ) and become AS ( or like ) little children ( I take this to mean, "towards God" ), shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven.
Whosoever ( any person ) that shall humble themselves AS ( or like ) the child He set in the midst of them, the same is the greatest in the kingdom of Heaven.

Anyone who receives one of God's children in His name, receives Christ...whether into their house, or any other "reception".
Anyone who offends one of these little ones that believe in Him ( there's your answer for who the "little ones" are in verse 14 ), it will be better for them if a millstone were hanged around their neck and drowned in the depth of the sea...than to face God for it.

He tells them all to take heed that they do not despise one of "these little ones", because their angels ( yes, believers have "guardian angels" ) do always behold the face of God the Father, and that Jesus came to seek and to save "that which WAS lost".

All through this passage, Christ is using first, a little child ( and then a lost sheep ) to serve as examples of how much God loves His children...

Christ's sheep.

I cannot fathom Jesus saying that it is His Father's will that some of these children perish.

It isn't.

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." ( 2 Peter 3:8-9 )

None of His children will perish, because they will all come to repentance.

Again:

" For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." ( John 3:16 )

" Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." ( John 5:24 )

They shall never perish ( come into condemnation ).

" My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand." ( John 10:27-28 )

They shall never perish.
They are precious, they are bought and paid for.
They are redeemed.
They are reconciled to God by the death of His Son ( Romans 5:10-11, 2 Corinthians 5:18 )



The question I have for you is, according to God's word, how does one get to be a child of the living God?

 

[utilyan]

No such thing as a Greek Calvinist. Maybe cause there is no foolin' them.

 

[Dave G]

Next verse:

" [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." ( John 1:9 )

What is it to "light" every man?
Perhaps I'm not getting enough context. Let's widen things a bit and see if I've missed something...one verse, all by itself, can and often does not give a full and clear picture of what is being stated, in my opinion:


"There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light.
9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." ( John 1:6-9 )

Here I see John the Baptist being sent from God to bear witness of the Light, that all through Him might believe ( the word "men" is in italics, so not part of the text ).
"All" who? IMO, good question. Perhaps someone will start a thread going through all of the "all" passages.
In verse 8 it tells me that John the Baptist was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Finally, in verse 9 it tells me that He was the true Light which "lights" every man that comes into the world.

I'm not sure about you, but my mind goes to Romans 1:18-21 when I think of Christ "lighting" every man who comes into the world:

" For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened."

Christ casts the light of truth onto ( "lights") every man who comes into the world...
The truth of who He is.

In addition, other Scriptures tell me this:

" He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." ( John 3:18-21 )

This tells me quite a bit:

18) Those that believe on Him are not condemned (present tense), but those that do not are condemned already (past tense)...why? Because they have not believed.
19) This is the condemnation...Light is come into the world.

I suppose the obvious question should be, "Who is the "light"?"

" Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." ( John 8:12 )

Jesus is the "light" of the world.
Those that follow Him shall not walk in the darkness that they were formerly walking in , referenced in Romans 1:21.

20) Those that do evil ( sin ), hate the "light"...Jesus Christ. Neither do they come to ( believe on, please see John 6:35-40 for the answer to, "what is it to come to Christ?" ) the "light", to avoid the risk of having their sinful deeds being reproved ( reprimanded ).
21) Those that do truth, come to the "light" ( Jesus Christ )..so that their deeds may be shown that they are worked in ( or the work of ) God ( Philippians 2:13 ).


I see something a bit different when I read John 1:9, than you seem to.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Hi, Katrina. Thank you for this information. I appreciate your kind, friendly spirit.

I try to interpret this passage in light of other passages on the subject.

Matthew 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
I cannot fathom Jesus saying that it is His Father's will that some of these children perish.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
"Every man" seems to be all-inclusive.

I Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
The will of God seems to be very clear here.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
I certainly do not claim to understand it fully, but I accept this inspired Scripture to mean exactly what it says.

I Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Again, the will of God seems to be very clear here.

In my humble opinion, these and other passages do away with unconditional election, limited atonement, and irresistible grace.

Pastor Bob.

I see that Dave Gilbert took care of the scripture in Matthew. In my opinion, he did a wonderful job.

I believe you meant 2 Peter 3.9. Not a big deal. My typos have been legion sometimes. Again, the context is important. Peter is talking to believers.

This is one of my favorite Pastors exegeting 2 Peter 3:9.

One more thing. Paul wrote both 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus. He also wrote Romans and Ephesians.


Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

I don't believe that Paul has changed his mind or that he has some kind of mental disorder. Romans 9 is the best illustration of God choosing one person over another and it wasn't based on anything they had done. "I will show mercy upon whom I will show mercy.

John 1:9 refers to every man having knowledge of God so they are without excuse. Every man has knowledge of the creation. David Platt has a great sermon on this.

Also consider that John 1 would contradict John 6. Jesus didn't change his mind. Is it every man or only those whom the Father draws?

I'm not a Greek speaker but I do use lexicons. My husband has BDAG, but must say, it's all Greek to me. LOL. I generally rely on Logos 6, or BlueLetterBible.

1 Timothy 2:4 uses the Greek word 'pas' once again. It doesn't say every person who ever lived, or will live.

God Bless Pastor Bob.

 

[Dave G]

The next after that:

" who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." ( 1 Timothy 2:4 )

Who are the "all men" in this verse?
Again, perhaps more context is in order:

" I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 for kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. " ( 1 Timothy 2:1-4 )

Hmmm...still not enough, at least to me, to establish who the "all men" are ( if one ignores the highlighted "for kings and all that are in authority" ) without running into conflict with this important fact:

Scripture states that God is Omnipotent ( all-powerful )...( Revelation 19:6 and many others establish this, as I see it ).
With that said, if God wanted to save all men, then what is preventing ( the modern use of the term, which means to "hold back" ) Him from doing it?

Please list Scripture for what can hold back the power of Almighty God from having His will accomplished ( Daniel 4:35 and many others ).



I'm not sure about you, but I have to bring in "all men" from other passages that speak similarly, and tie that in, weighing it carefully to see if I have it right.

For now, I have to disagree with you, because to use "all men" as literally meaning all men, it conflicts with other passages that I see as being selective and in their context, describing men and women from every tongue, tribe and nation...Scripture "interpreting", or adding weight and definition to, Scripture.

 

[Dave G]

Final verse ( I've already dealt with 2 Peter 3:9, at least as far as I see it saying ):

" For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men," ( Titus 2:11 )

Again, I need to see more context, since I've often, in my rush to prove things out, taken what one verse has said and "run" with it.
The older I get, I tend to "put on the brakes" and consider more of what God's word has to say before reaching a decision about it...and I've made a lot of mistakes.

" For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." ( Titus 2:11-14 )

Here I see much to digest.
I've also highlighted what I believe are significant pronouns that shed light on who is the target of the "all men":

11) The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
Who are the "all men" in this passage?

12) Teaching us ( the "all men"...God's people out of every tongue, tribe and nation? I believe that the least that could be stated, is that the "all men" are defined in this verse..."us". ) that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world.
Who are the "us" and "we"?

I think it's obvious...believers, not unbelievers.
You decide.

13) Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour, Jesus Christ ( for those who have trouble with the deity of Christ, there's your proof...the great God AND our Saviour, Jesus Christ ).

14) who gave Himself for us ( the "all men" in verse 11, and the "us" and "we" in verse 12, as well as the "our" in verse 13 ), so that He might redeem us ( His people, see Matthew 1:21 and Ephesians 5:25 for samples ) from ALL iniquity ( Colossians 2:13-14 ) and purify to Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


With context established, I'm not seeing the same thing as you are, sir.
Perhaps that is why we differ in how we understand and use the verses.

In my opinion, these verses ( in their proper contexts ) do nothing to convince me that unconditional election, "limited atonement" and "irresistible grace" are untrue, but only serve to reinforce what I already understand from Scripture.


May God bless you richly.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Hi, Katrina. Thank you for this information. I appreciate your kind, friendly spirit.

I try to interpret this passage in light of other passages on the subject.

Matthew 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
I cannot fathom Jesus saying that it is His Father's will that some of these children perish.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
"Every man" seems to be all-inclusive.

I Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
The will of God seems to be very clear here.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
I certainly do not claim to understand it fully, but I accept this inspired Scripture to mean exactly what it says.

I Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Again, the will of God seems to be very clear here.

In my humble opinion, these and other passages do away with unconditional election, limited atonement, and irresistible grace.

Pastor Bob.

I see that Dave Gilbert took care of the scripture in Matthew. In my opinion, he did a wonderful job.

I believe you meant 2 Peter 3.9. Not a big deal. My typos have been legion sometimes. Again, the context is important. Peter is talking to believers.

This is one of my favorite Pastors exegeting 2 Peter 3:9.

One more thing. Paul wrote both 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus. He also wrote Romans and Ephesians.


Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

I don't believe that Paul has changed his mind or that he has some kind of mental disorder. Romans 9 is the best illustration of God choosing one person over another and it wasn't based on anything they had done. "I will show mercy upon whom I will show mercy.

John 1:9 refers to every man having knowledge of God so they are without excuse. Every man has knowledge of the creation. David Platt has a great sermon on this.

Also consider that John 1 would contradict John 6. Jesus didn't change his mind. Is it every man or only those whom the Father draws?

I'm not a Greek speaker but I do use lexicons. My husband has BDAG, but must say, it's all Greek to me. LOL. I generally rely on Logos 6, or BlueLetterBible.

1 Timothy 2:4 uses the Greek word 'pas' once again. It doesn't say every person who ever lived, or will live.

God Bless Pastor Bob.

The next after that:

" who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." ( 1 Timothy 2:4 )

Who are the "all men" in this verse?
Again, perhaps more context is in order:

" I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 for kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. " ( 1 Timothy 2:1-4 )

Hmmm...still not enough, at least to me, to establish who the "all men" are ( if one ignores the highlighted "for kings and all that are in authority" ) without running into conflict with this important fact:

Scripture states that God is Omnipotent ( all-powerful )...( Revelation 19:6 and many others establish this, as I see it ).
With that said, if God wanted to save all men, then what is preventing ( the modern use of the term, which means to "hold back" ) Him from doing it?

Please list Scripture for what can hold back the power of Almighty God from having His will accomplished ( Daniel 4:35 and many others ).



I'm not sure about you, but I have to bring in "all men" from other passages that speak similarly, and tie that in, weighing it carefully to see if I have it right.

For now, I have to disagree with you, because to use "all men" as literally meaning all men, it conflicts with other passages that I see as being selective and in their context, describing men and women from every tongue, tribe and nation...Scripture "interpreting", or adding weight and definition to, Scripture.

You are a blessing Dave. I love your exegesis of scripture. It's consistent and godly.

 

[Dave G]

No such thing as a Greek Calvinist. Maybe cause there is no foolin' them.

Sure there is, if what you mean by "Calvinist" and "Calvinism" are the Biblical teachings of election, predestination, calling, justification, reprobation and many other subjects.
Every one of the believers in Thessalonica were told about their election ( choice ) "of God" ( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ) and their calling by the Holy Spirit, by Paul.

That's only one of the cities of Greece that had believers in them:

Thessalonica
Berea
Corinth
Athens

May God's grace be abundant to you, sir.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

" Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish." ( Matthew 18:14 )

Who are "these little ones" in this verse?
...these little ones that believe in Him ( there's your answer for who the "little ones" are in verse 14 ),

None of His children will perish, because they will all come to repentance.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." ( John 3:16 )

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." ( John 5:24 )

I do not disagree with any of this. It is my position that "whosoever will" may come to Jesus. Believing in Him is the determining factor for salvation. Hence, all are drawn and have the opportunity to believe, based upon the passages you offered.

The question I have for you is, according to God's word, how does one get to be a child of the living God?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (KJV)

 

[Pastor_Bob]

With context established, I'm not seeing the same thing as you are, sir.
Perhaps that is why we differ in how we understand and use the verses.

May God bless you richly.

Thank you, Dave, for the time and effort you have put into your responses. It is refreshing to see a position defended with the proper disposition.

It is true that we are looking at the same passages from a different perspective. I will, however, take the time to read your posts more thoroughly when I have the time (We're taking our Christian school to the pumpkin patch this morning and I drew the short straw to drive the bus!).

God bless you, my friend.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Pastor Bob.

I believe you meant 2 Peter 3.9. Not a big deal.

Thank you, Katrina. I did indeed mean II Peter.
Thank you also for expressing your understanding of the passages given. I will read them more carefully when I have the time to do so.

Have a great weekend!

 

[Dave G]

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (KJV)

I thought that is what you might say.

To you as well, have a good weekend, sir.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I do not disagree with any of this. It is my position that "whosoever will" may come to Jesus. Believing in Him is the determining factor for salvation. Hence, all are drawn and have the opportunity to believe, based upon the passages you offered.


John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (KJV)

However, who are the many who received Him, even those who believe in His name?

who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.[John 1:13]

Those who received Him, those who believe on His name are those who are born of God.

 

[Rockson]

The next after that:

" who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." ( 1 Timothy 2:4 )

Who are the "all men" in this verse?
Again, perhaps more context is in order:

Sure Dave

" I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 for kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. " ( 1 Timothy 2:1-4 )

Hmmm...still not enough, at least to me, to establish who the "all men" are..."
[/QUOTE]

Sorry Dave but it's absolutely staggering the length you'll go to twist the simple, clear reading of scripture and make it look like you're being reasonable. He said "all men" in verse 1, the kings and authorities are in vs 2 followed by repeating and emphasizing what he's been talking about..."all men" vs 4. The subject never changed between vs 1 & 4 not even in the slightest and yet you want to spin off of this and claim it has. How so very, very strange.

( if one ignores the highlighted "for kings and all that are in authority" ) without running into conflict with this important fact:

Scripture states that God is Omnipotent ( all-powerful )...( Revelation 19:6 and many others establish this, as I see it ).

Of course the Lord God omnipotent reigns but he does so in the way that he wants NOT the way you'd like to dictate him to. If God in his sovereignty and his right to do whatever he wants so desires and chooses that men can accept him or reject him without irresistible grace forcing them who are you to resist God? Who are you to say he can't do what he wants?

With that said, if God wanted to save all men, then what is preventing ( the modern use of the term, which means to "hold back" ) Him from doing it?

It's called character. You have one...why do you deny God the same right? Not sure if you're married but if so....just because you might be bigger and stronger than your wife what's to stop you from forcing her into compliance. What prevents you from doing so? Character! Are you glad you have character? I'm sure you do. Stop saying God can't have one.

Please list Scripture for what can hold back the power of Almighty God from having His will accomplished ( Daniel 4:35 and many others ).

<sigh> A lot of verses like that have nothing to do with God forcing a person to be saved or not saved. Yes it says he does his will among the inhabitants of the earth but can you take that to mean an every second, ever moment his desires would be realized? If so why then do we read that God would speak in exasperation actually numbers of times?

O unbelieving and perverse generation!” Jesus replied. “How long must I remain with you? How long must I put up with you? Matt 17:18 In Num 14:11 we read a similar thing. The people wouldn't go into the land and it provoked God Well if God's will is just forced in all things because he'd omnipotent then how could they have resisted what he wanted them to do? Well God does have the final say of the consequences of your actions but such doesn't mean because he's omnipotent he will force what you decide... why not? Character. Let God be God. If you have a right to have character then so does he.

 

[Dave G]

Of course the Lord God omnipotent reigns but he does so in the way that he wants NOT the way you'd like to dictate him to.

I agree.
Whatever He wants, He gets.

I only believe what I understand Him telling me through His word.
How do you see me "dictating", if I may ask?
By my declaring what I see and understand from Scripture?

To me, that's called "asserting", not dictating.
From my perspective, you're free to disagree.
I'll do my best not to dictate what you should believe, and hope that what you would believe is God's every word.

If God in his sovereignty and his right to do whatever he wants so desires and chooses that men can accept him or reject him without irresistible grace forcing them who are you to resist God?

I'm not sure where in Scripture you see that God gives men a choice to either accept Him or reject Him, but I am aware of several places that people assume that that is what is stated.
Perhaps you could post those Scriptures ( that out-and-out declare that as fact ) for me again, since I do not remember seeing you do so.

What I clearly see from His word, is that they already reject Him ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 ), and that He has to change their hearts or they will continue to reject Him.

I don't believe in "Prevenient Grace", if that is what you are speaking with reference to, because that would make men the final arbiter of their salvation...thereby giving them something to potentially boast in, other than strictly God's grace and mercy ( Titus 3:4-7 ).
I believe in God overwhelming and replacing the rebellious, hard heart contained in all men, and doing it for Christ's sheep alone.

I also believe that we have already discussed this at length, good sir, and I have no wish to re-state what I have put down in prior threads.

Who are you to say he can't do what he wants?

Me?
I'm nobody worth mentioning:

" and all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" ( Daniel 4:35 )


There is no chance that I can possibly stand in the way of Him getting anything He wants...I am but a man, and He is my Creator.
He does as He will...He chooses, and He doesn't.
He blesses and He curses.

He reveals Himself to some ( Matthew 11:27, Luke 10:22 ) and hides Himself from others ( Romans 11:7-8 )
He saves, and He casts into Hell.
He has mercy upon whom He will, and whom He will, He hardens towards Him:


" What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? " ( Romans 9:14-24 )


I believe the text above is clear, but I'm also the first to tell you that it wasn't always so.
It took the Lord a fair number of passes in the book of Romans to solidify things for me.

What is a vessel?
An individual, which is what I see stated here:

" Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with [them] according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered." ( 1 Peter 3:7 )


I see Romans 9 speaking to individuals, not nations, which is why I've highlighted the pronouns and given another passage for reference.
By the way, this passage, the first time I really understood it, sobered me like no other when I finally did understand the chapter completely, by His grace.


Good evening, sir.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Sure Dave

" I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 for kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. " ( 1 Timothy 2:1-4 )

Hmmm...still not enough, at least to me, to establish who the "all men" are..."

You have been shown the proper exegesis of this verse including the usage of the Greek word 'pas'. You just don't like it. So your "at least to me" begs for some special intervention. The source for Christians is in a book known as the Holy Bible.

Sorry Dave but it's absolutely staggering the length you'll go to twist the simple, clear reading of scripture and make it look like you're being reasonable. He said "all men" in verse 1, the kings and authorities are in vs 2 followed by repeating and emphasizing what he's been talking about..."all men" vs 4. The subject never changed between vs 1 & 4 not even in the slightest and yet you want to spin off of this and claim it has. How so very, very strange.

Do you have any proof of this accusation against Dave? No, you don't.

Let's look at a proper exegesis of this verse.

Do you not realize that you are questioning the power of God in salvation? If God wanted all men to be saved, they would be.

Of course the Lord God omnipotent reigns but he does so in the way that he wants NOT the way you'd like to dictate him to. If God in his sovereignty and his right to do whatever he wants so desires and chooses that men can accept him or reject him without irresistible grace forcing them who are you to resist God? Who are you to say he can't do what he wants?

How do you come to say this? What scripture(s) support it?

It's called character. You have one...why do you deny God the same right? Not sure if you're married but if so....just because you might be bigger and stronger than your wife what's to stop you from forcing her into compliance. What prevents you from doing so? Character! Are you glad you have character? I'm sure you do. Stop saying God can't have one.

This is offensive. Dave said no such thing and you have no right, as a Christian, to imply otherwise. I believe it's called bearing false witness.

<sigh> A lot of verses like that have nothing to do with God forcing a person to be saved or not saved. Yes it says he does his will among the inhabitants of the earth but can you take that to mean an every second, ever moment his desires would be realized? If so why then do we read that God would speak in exasperation actually numbers of times?

O unbelieving and perverse generation!” Jesus replied. “How long must I remain with you? How long must I put up with you? Matt 17:18 In Num 14:11 we read a similar thing. The people wouldn't go into the land and it provoked God Well if God's will is just forced in all things because he'd omnipotent then how could they have resisted what he wanted them to do? Well God does have the final say of the consequences of your actions but such doesn't mean because he's omnipotent he will force what you decide... why not? Character. Let God be God. If you have a right to have character then so does he.

You didn't answer Dave's question and you surely did nothing to support your own views. You assumes things say what you want them to say.

The scriptures teach that the elect are chosen before the foundation of the world.

John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.


John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.


Romans 9:14-24English Standard Version (ESV)

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[a] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?


Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,


Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV)

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.



Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


Acts 13:48English Standard Version (ESV)

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.


Colossians 2:13English Standard Version (ESV)

13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,


Titus 3:5English Standard Version (ESV)

5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,


1 Peter 1:3English Standard Version (ESV)

Born Again to a Living Hope

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


2 Timothy 2:25English Standard Version (ESV)

25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,


Ezekiel 36:25-26English Standard Version (ESV)

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.



Deuteronomy 30:6English Standard Version (ESV)

6 And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You have been shown the proper exegesis of this verse including the usage of the Greek word 'pas'. You just don't like it. So your "at least to me" begs for some special intervention. The source for Christians is in a book known as the Holy Bible.



Do you have any proof of this accusation against Dave? No, you don't.

Let's look at a proper exegesis of this verse.

Do you not realize that you are questioning the power of God in salvation? If God wanted all men to be saved, they would be.



How do you come to say this? What scripture(s) support it?




This is offensive. Dave said no such thing and you have no right, as a Christian, to imply otherwise. I believe it's called bearing false witness.



You didn't answer Dave's question and you surely did nothing to support your own views. You assumes things say what you want them to say.

The scriptures teach that the elect are chosen before the foundation of the world.

John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.


John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.


Romans 9:14-24English Standard Version (ESV)

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[a] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?


Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,


Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV)

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.



Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


Acts 13:48English Standard Version (ESV)

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.


Colossians 2:13English Standard Version (ESV)

13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,


Titus 3:5English Standard Version (ESV)

5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,


1 Peter 1:3English Standard Version (ESV)

Born Again to a Living Hope

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


2 Timothy 2:25English Standard Version (ESV)

25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,


Ezekiel 36:25-26English Standard Version (ESV)

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.



Deuteronomy 30:6English Standard Version (ESV)

6 And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.