Who is Drawing?

[Rockson]

You have been shown the proper exegesis of this verse including the usage of the Greek word 'pas'. You just don't like it. So your "at least to me" begs for some special intervention. The source for Christians is in a book known as the Holy Bible.

Nope sorry Katarina....you yourself demonstrated the greek word "pas" overwhelmingly means
every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything.....every kind of, is allowed. That by no means wins a case to suggest God only wants some people saved.


" I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. " ( 1 Timothy 2:1-4 )

The prayers I'd say are not being prayed JUST for a select group of men but generally speaking ALL. He doesn't say either about the kings for only certain ones to pray for but it's inferred ALL....and lastly God wants us to pray for he want's us to know he delights to see all men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

You'd say he wants us to pray that certain type of people can be saved or.... the elect. I am curious here. If you believe the elect are saved whether or no, no matter what....why the need for prayer. Wouldn't you declare God has already decided this? This makes sense to Non-Calvinists to pray for we believe as we pray God can move to show a measure of favor on say even our unsaved loved ones.

Doesn't mean God forces them to be saved but he does move upon their spirits somewhat more with conviction. I see no application however where praying for unsaved people or these kings and those in authority would make a difference to God with Calvinistic theology. Thanks if you could respond with some thoughts.

 

[Rockson]

Well SD before you pride yourself that a slam dunk has been achieved you might want to check that ball. It may be leaking air.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Well SD before you pride yourself that a slam dunk has been achieved you might want to check that ball. It may be leaking air.

Nah! But my beloved UK lost that NCAA championship game to UConn.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Nope sorry Katarina....you yourself demonstrated the greek word "pas" overwhelmingly means
every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything.....every kind of, is allowed. That by no means wins a case to suggest God only wants some people saved.


" I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. " ( 1 Timothy 2:1-4 )

The prayers I'd say are not being prayed JUST for a select group of men but generally speaking ALL. He doesn't say either about the kings for only certain ones to pray for but it's inferred ALL....and lastly God wants us to pray for he want's us to know he delights to see all men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

You'd say he wants us to pray that certain type of people can be saved or.... the elect. I am curious here. If you believe the elect are saved whether or no, no matter what....why the need for prayer. Wouldn't you declare God has already decided this? This makes sense to Non-Calvinists to pray for we believe as we pray God can move to show a measure of favor on say even our unsaved loved ones.

Doesn't mean God forces them to be saved but he does move upon their spirits somewhat more with conviction. I see no application however where praying for unsaved people or these kings and those in authority would make a difference to God with Calvinistic theology. Thanks if you could respond with some thoughts.

If God will have all men to be saved, then why are not all men saved? Is God to weak to pull it off? Does He need their help in saving themselves?

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Nope sorry Katarina....you yourself demonstrated the greek word "pas" overwhelmingly means
every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything.....every kind of, is allowed. That by no means wins a case to suggest God only wants some people saved.

I think you should have a better handle on using a lexicon. In this case, Paul was talking about many people, certainly more than one. That leaves you with one choice.

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. individually
   
   1. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
      
2. collectively
   
   1. some of all types
      

" I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. " ( 1 Timothy 2:1-4 )

The prayers I'd say are not being prayed JUST for a select group of men but generally speaking ALL. He doesn't say either about the kings for only certain ones to pray for but it's inferred ALL....and lastly God wants us to pray for he want's us to know he delights to see all men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

You can say whatever you like, but imposing your beliefs upon the scripture is called eisegesis.
Where exactly is this inferred? We do pray for the salvation of others. This is the most important thing we should take from the great commission. This is consistent with Paul's teaching. So we pray, but most of the time we don't know the end results. Nevertheless, we are obedient to God.

You'd say he wants us to pray that certain type of people can be saved or.... the elect. I am curious here. If you believe the elect are saved whether or no, no matter what....why the need for prayer. Wouldn't you declare God has already decided this? This makes sense to Non-Calvinists to pray for we believe as we pray God can move to show a measure of favor on say even our unsaved loved ones.

That isn't what I said. I have no such knowledge. And I'm not so egotistical to think that God plans His will around what I believe. He chooses whom he chooses. I pray for all in obedience to God, God takes it from there. God does whatever he wants to do.

Stop accusing others regarding their prayers.

Doesn't mean God forces them to be saved but he does move upon their spirits somewhat more with conviction. I see no application however where praying for unsaved people or these kings and those in authority would make a difference to God with Calvinistic theology. Thanks if you could respond with some thoughts.

I hear this a lot from free-willers. God created the universe and all that is within it. God chooses his elect for his glory.

Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

The Bible teaches us to engage in the Great Commission. We don't need any other reason. God said it, I believe it. The Bible also teaches us to pray for those in authority over us. Even bad leaders need intervention from God. God established government.

Last thing. You use the word 'forced'. You should consider all of the ramifications of this word.

 

[SovereignGrace]

One side sees God like a father who stands out on the front porch calling for his children to come home. Those who come home, he gladly welcomes them into his house. Those who do not come home, he will eventually shut the front door on them and leave them where they are.

However, that is not how God calls His children home. As we witness to lost folk, God takes an active approach and moves through the words we proclaim to them. God is not merely in heaven calling His children, He is active and pursues them. He then quickens them to life and they are saved.

Also, not everyone whoever lived is a child of God. Only His sheep are. All are His via creation, but only His children receive reconciliation, regeneration, salvation, sanctification and finally glorification.

 

[Rockson]

Do you have any proof of this accusation against Dave? No, you don't.

Well Katarina message boards are all about building a case responding back and forth to substantiate claims. To declare no I don't doesn't even allow for rebuttals.

Let's look at a proper exegesis of this verse.

Not by your putting down a link for a 14 minute video I won't. I watch videos all the time yes ones which challenge my position too but not on a message board I won't. Both sides would start slapping down such and real communication goes by the wayside and mere indoctrination takes over. I suggest put down your key points and people can discuss them.

Do you not realize that you are questioning the power of God in salvation? If God wanted all men to be saved, they would be.

Katarina is not everyone including yourself in this Calvinsim/Non-Calvin board questioning others as to just how God releases his power of salvation? That really was my point in saying to our good friend David when I said who are you to say God can't do it this or that way which would be contrary to what he or you believe.

If God wanted all men to be saved, they would be.

Yes such would be the case if there wasn't any other factors involved other than just his power or ability which we know of course is infinite. There are as I said to David, nature or character to consider. What exactly is God's nature (1 Jn 4:8, 1 Cor 13) No offense but if you take the wraps off of your basic belief it seems to be, Might Makes Right. I'd kindly suggest there's more to consider than just omnipotence. Omnipotence is just one side of what God is like. To see the bigger picture really brings the proper perspective and yes balance. Please give it some thought.

 

[Dave G]

Friends,
I'd like to point out that, even in threads on forums where we enjoy a large detachment because of the internet, that we should all remember the Lord's commands:


" Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers." ( Ephesians 4:29 )

" Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man." ( Colossians 4:6 )


I speak from long experience, and I want more than anything to put the brakes on my flesh ( but only the power of the Holy Spirit can do that ), and answer every person on this forum with grace...
The older I get, the more it becomes important for me, not to "win the argument", but to state why I believe what I do from Scripture, and let the chips fall where they might.


May we all take the time to respond, not "from the gut" or off the top of our heads, but carefully, keeping in mind our mutual respect for our fellow "man".

Let's all choose our words carefully.




May God's grace be evident to you in abundance.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Friends,
I'd like to point out that, even in threads on forums where we enjoy a large detachment because of the internet, that we should all remember the Lord's commands:


" Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers." ( Ephesians 4:29 )

" Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man." ( Colossians 4:6 )


I speak from long experience, and I want more than anything to put the brakes on my flesh ( but only the power of the Holy Spirit can do that ), and answer every person on this forum with grace...
The older I get, the more it becomes important for me, not to "win the argument", but to state why I believe what I do from Scripture, and let the chips fall where they might.


May we all take the time to respond, not "from the gut" or off the top of our heads, but carefully, keeping in mind our mutual respect for our fellow "man".

Let's all choose our words carefully.




May God's grace be evident to you in abundance.

Eeeeeh....shaddup! I mean that is the nicest and most sincere way, Bruh...

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Well Katarina message boards are all about building a case responding back and forth to substantiate claims. To declare no I don't doesn't even allow for rebuttals.

You cannot build a case without the proper exegesis of scripture.

Not by your putting down a link for a 14 minute video I won't. I watch videos all the time yes ones which challenge my position too but not on a message board I won't. Both sides would start slapping down such and real communication goes by the wayside and mere indoctrination takes over. I suggest put down your key points and people can discuss them.

What I hear you saying is that you choose not to understand the proper exegesis of this part of scripture. That leaves you with confusion, regarding what Paul was teaching.

Katarina is not everyone including yourself in this Calvinsim/Non-Calvin board questioning others as to just how God releases his power of salvation? That really was my point in saying to our good friend David when I said who are you to say God can't do it this or that way which would be contrary to what he or you believe.

No, there is a huge difference. The scriptures are a gift from God. They clearly tell us that we were 'chosen' before the foundation of the world.

You have not a single verse in the entire Bible that says men have freewill unto salvation. God has not given us a formula, if you will, to accomplish a b and c before He will choose us. Romans 9 teaches that God chooses whom he chooses AND that we have no right to question him regarding His choices.

Why can you not accept that?

Yes such would be the case if there wasn't any other factors involved other than just his power or ability which we know of course is infinite. There are as I said to David, nature or character to consider. What exactly is God's nature (1 Jn 4:8, 1 Cor 13) No offense but if you take the wraps off of your basic belief it seems to be, Might Makes Right. I'd kindly suggest there's more to consider than just omnipotence. Omnipotence is just one side of what God is like. To see the bigger picture really brings the proper perspective and yes balance. Please give it some thought.

Let me say it again. Nothing matters except for God's will. He will bring to pass whatever He chooses.

I used to be an Arminian, but I'm so grateful to God that His truth prevailed. He lovingly opened my eyes to proper reading of His word. I'm no more saved than I was before, but I have a better understanding. God reveals to us all what He chooses to tell us.

I have NEVER questioned the nature of God, let alone His character. The Cross says it all.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Eeeeeh....shaddup! I mean that is the nicest and most sincere way, Bruh...

Absolutely!

More convicting scripture!

James 1:26English Standard Version (ESV)

26 If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.

Titus 3:9English Standard Version (ESV)

9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

1 Peter 3:15English Standard Version (ESV)

15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

2 Timothy 2:14English Standard Version (ESV)

14 Remind them of these things, and charge them before God[a] not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.

We all need reminders.

 

[Rockson]

You cannot build a case without the proper exegesis of scripture.

No offense Katarina but who knows...maybe that's just what I was going to tell you.

My Comments Connected To Katharina's Next Statement
Not by your putting down a link for a 14 minute video I won't. I watch videos all the time yes ones which challenge my position too but not on a message board I won't. Both sides would start slapping down such and real communication goes by the wayside and mere indoctrination takes over. I suggest put down your key points and people can discuss them.

What I hear you saying is that you choose not to understand the proper exegesis of this part of scripture. That leaves you with confusion, regarding what Paul was teaching.

Maybe you're being a little bit presumptuous in saying you hear me saying something I didn't. I've been a moderator on a different web site and we never allowed in certain areas pictures or videos for the reason I said above....it takes away real communication. With a couple of clicks I could post Non-Calv videos here....won't do it though, as for me I don't think it's right.

No, there is a huge difference. The scriptures are a gift from God. They clearly tell us that we were 'chosen' before the foundation of the world.

Well various people have a different opinion than you on just what 'chosen' before or from the foundation of the world means. You go cross grain from them on just how they feel God's salvation power is released. Therefore no need to ask don't you know you're questioning how God releases salvation power? You're doing it from their standpoint as well.

You have not a single verse in the entire Bible that says men have freewill unto salvation.

Well I know that you're not choosing to put it together this way but God calls on people to repent and believe. There's a space of time before they do. It may be only a second, an hour or day BUT during that interval of time by their will they're making the choice. Why shouldn't it be considered a self-evident fact that the will is being utilized and the free will choice is being made. What significance can a word like repent have if it's merely a robotic automation.

You say give me a scripture which used the words free will to repent. I think we can learn God doesn't fancy to provide things for people things that he considers should be self-evident. Atheists claim God revealing himself through creation isn't proof of his existence. He doesn't jump through hoops to provide further things when what he's provided should be self evident that he does . As one sees the character and nature of God in scripture likewise there's no further need to ask for proof....men have the will to choose. God enlightens and convicts but men choose.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

No offense Katarina but who knows...maybe that's just what I was going to tell you.

My Comments Connected To Katharina's Next Statement
Not by your putting down a link for a 14 minute video I won't. I watch videos all the time yes ones which challenge my position too but not on a message board I won't. Both sides would start slapping down such and real communication goes by the wayside and mere indoctrination takes over. I suggest put down your key points and people can discuss them.



Maybe you're being a little bit presumptuous in saying you hear me saying something I didn't. I've been a moderator on a different web site and we never allowed in certain areas pictures or videos for the reason I said above....it takes away real communication. With a couple of clicks I could post Non-Calv videos here....won't do it though, as for me I don't think it's right.



Well various people have a different opinion than you on just what 'chosen' before or from the foundation of the world means. You go cross grain from them on just how they feel God's salvation power is released. Therefore no need to ask don't you know you're questioning how God releases salvation power? You're doing it from their standpoint as well.



Well I know that you're not choosing to put it together this way but God calls on people to repent and believe. There's a space of time before they do. It may be only a second, an hour or day BUT during that interval of time by their will they're making the choice. Why shouldn't it be considered a self-evident fact that the will is being utilized and the free will choice is being made. What significance can a word like repent have if it's merely a robotic automation.

You say give me a scripture which used the words free will to repent. I think we can learn God doesn't fancy to provide things for people things that he considers should be self-evident. Atheists claim God revealing himself through creation isn't proof of his existence. He doesn't jump through hoops to provide further things when what he's provided should be self evident that he does . As one sees the character and nature of God in scripture likewise there's no further need to ask for proof....men have the will to choose. God enlightens and convicts but men choose.

I'm a moderator as well for a multimillion dollar company. So what? Who cares? It's not a big deal.

You've said some untrue things here.

You post in your way and I will post the way I want to. I will not be lectured to.

Ever think about the travails of the Apostle Paul. He was beaten, stoned, shipwrecked more than once, jailed and yet he rejoiced and sang. One thing Paul never did was change his mind on the plan of salvation.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Well various people have a different opinion than you on just what 'chosen' before or from the foundation of the world means.

Opinions mean squat. The bible says we, all the believing ones, were chosen in Christ from before the creation of the world. That's as straightforward a statement as ever was, yet ppl twist it.

You say give me a scripture which used the words free will to repent. I think we can learn God doesn't fancy to provide things for people things that he considers should be self-evident. Atheists claim God revealing himself through creation isn't proof of his existence. He doesn't jump through hoops to provide further things when what he's provided should be self evident that he does . As one sees the character and nature of God in scripture likewise there's no further need to ask for proof....men have the will to choose. God enlightens and convicts but men choose.

God has, in fact, revealed Himself to His creation via natural revelation. Those who live in remote areas who have never had a bible placed in their hand, never had someone witness to them, they know God exists. What they don't know is the God of the bible. They see a 'god' that they worship, such as a sun god, a god of the trees, some sort of animalistic idol of their own making, &c. That is what Romans 1:23 speaks to. They take God's creation and attribute it to some idol.

Natural revelation does not tell them God came as a man, lived a perfect, sinless life. Bore the sins of His ppl on the cross and died to atone for their sins. Was buried for 3 days and nights, rose on the 3rd day for His ppl' justification, ascended back to His Father, and is coming again at the 2nd advent.

 

[Rockson]

I'm a moderator as well for a multimillion dollar company. So what? Who cares? It's not a big deal.

I respect your right to have an opinion on that. I happen to think posting youtube videos of teachings on message boards does take away true dialogue and becomes more indoctrination. This site can allow whatever they want that's fine. I see no reason to be demeaned because I won't watch them. If it's a deal to me it's a deal to me. You don't get to absolutely define what a big deal or not. If it's not to you like I said I respect you to have that opinion. Why not extend the same courtesy?

You post in your way and I will post the way I want to. I will not be lectured to.

I agree. Post anyway you want. It's management which decides what the rules are here not me. On the flip side of the coin I won't be bullied and demeaned for not watching your 14 min video. I told you my reasons why above. At least grant the consideration that I genuinely might feel the way I do without making something up like, here's what you're hearing me saying. I told you my reasons and that's it period.

Ever think about the travails of the Apostle Paul. He was beaten, stoned, shipwrecked more than once, jailed and yet he rejoiced and sang. One thing Paul never did was change his mind on the plan of salvation.

Sorry but I fail to understand what's that got to do about what we're discussing.

 

[Rockson]

Bob,
Obviously I'm not Katarina, but I'd like to reply to some of the verses you've posted above.
This may be a bit lengthy, but I'll try to keep it as short as possible.

I'd like to start with the first one you listed:

" Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish." ( Matthew 18:14 )

Who are "these little ones" in this verse?
To determine that, I'd like to widen the passage to take in more of what the Lord has to say:

"At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that [sheep], than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish." ( Matthew 18:1-14 )


The disciples came to Jesus with a question..."who is the greatest in the kingdom of Heaven?"
Jesus then calls a little child to Him, and sets the child down in the midst of them...to use as an example.

He then explains that except a person be converted ( born again ) and become AS ( or like ) little children ( I take this to mean, "towards God" ), shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven.
Whosoever ( any person ) that shall humble themselves AS ( or like ) the child He set in the midst of them, the same is the greatest in the kingdom of Heaven.

Anyone who receives one of God's children in His name, receives Christ...whether into their house, or any other "reception".
Anyone who offends one of these little ones that believe in Him ( there's your answer for who the "little ones" are in verse 14 ), it will be better for them if a millstone were hanged around their neck and drowned in the depth of the sea...than to face God for it.

He tells them all to take heed that they do not despise one of "these little ones", because their angels ( yes, believers have "guardian angels" ) do always behold the face of God the Father, and that Jesus came to seek and to save "that which WAS lost".

All through this passage, Christ is using first, a little child ( and then a lost sheep ) to serve as examples of how much God loves His children...

Christ's sheep.

Sorry David but doesn't this show the DANGERS of Calvinsism? You tried to make a case that Jesus doesn't really care about ALL children therefore it doesn't matter if you offend or hurt some of the others in the group (of children) Maybe you can tell me where I'm wrong in what you're saying.

 

[Rockson]

I'm not sure about you, but my mind goes to Romans 1:18-21 when I think of Christ "lighting" every man who comes into the world:

" For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened."

Christ casts the light of truth onto ( "lights") every man who comes into the world...
The truth of who He is.

Nope can't accept that at all. If such were the case you wouldn't have need of John the Baptist with giving necessary revelation that the Messiah or Christ was about to appear. And John the Baptism didn't go into a message which says now look at the physical creation....OK you got that well now you're enlightened congratulations. No, he bore witness of the LIGHT and after they go to that LIGHT to Christ then they'll be enlightened.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. Jn 1:9

Lighteth is an action word or a word where a process is taking place. How are people enlightened. By the preaching of the word. The entrance of God's word bringeth light Ps 119:30

"Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee; And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up. Matt 4:19

If creation itself was that illumination there would be no need to say they sat in the regions of death BEFORE Christ came. It says they came out of that state after he did. I do know why you want to interpret it your way though. You're wanting to put forward that Jesus didn't enlighten all with the gospel, and all his words of hope...well not they don't belong to them. Not true.

 

[Dave G]

Lighteth is an action word or a word where a process is taking place.

I agree.

How are people enlightened. By the preaching of the word. The entrance of God's word bringeth light Ps 119:30

Then why did He say, through Paul,

" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ) ?

The preaching of the cross is, to "them that perish" ( the lost, those on their way to Hell ), foolishness.
To "us which ARE saved", it is the power of God.



If all men are enlightened by the Gospel and the word of God, then why is it foolishness to the lost?

 

[Rockson]

I'm not sure where in Scripture you see that God gives men a choice to either accept Him or reject Him, but I am aware of several places that people assume that that is what is stated.

Well David maybe some time you'll consider their assumptions as fact.

Perhaps you could post those Scriptures ( that out-and-out declare that as fact ) for me again, since I do not remember seeing you do so.

Most of all your Calvinistic beliefs don't out-and-out declare as fact on some of the major things you believe. Where's the words irresistible grace? Where's the out-and-out declaration that OT saints or anyone desiring God in those times were regenerated? As for what you asked me the principle of accepting or rejecting God goes right back to the garden of Eden with the great choice. (Gen 3) The fact that NT saints preaching the gospel in hostile places only to finally leave saying,

"It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing you put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles" Acts 13:46

The Bible says they judged themselves unworthy of not receiving eternal life....not God. Acts 13:46

 

[Dave G]

Most of all your Calvinistic beliefs don't out-and-out declare as fact on some of the major things you believe. Where's the words irresistible grace? Where's the out-and-out declaration that OT saints or anyone desiring God in those times were regenerated? As for what you asked me the principle of accepting or rejecting God goes right back to the garden of Eden with the great choice. (Gen 3) The fact that NT saints preaching the gospel in hostile places only to finally leave saying,

With respect, sir, I can post Scripture that outright states that God chooses men to salvation.
Thus far, I don't see you answering the question, so I'll post it again for you:

I'm not sure where in Scripture you see that God gives men a choice to either accept Him or reject Him, but I am aware of several places that people assume that that is what is stated.
Perhaps you could post those Scriptures ( that out-and-out declare that as fact ) for me again, since I do not remember seeing you do so.

Where is the out-and-out declaration that God gives men a choice?