Who is Drawing?

[Dave G]

Sorry David but doesn't this show the DANGERS of Calvinsism?

What "dangers"?
Whether "Calvinism" is right or wrong, how does that affect you or other people out there?

I confess to being curious...

Do you believe that doctrine determines destiny?
That false doctrine shipwrecks souls?

 

[Rockson]

The older I get, I tend to "put on the brakes" and consider more of what God's word has to say before reaching a decision about it...and I've made a lot of mistakes.

None of us are perfect Dave that's for sure. I heard the tale of a person who claimed there was two perfect people. They and another individual and sometimes they had doubts about them!

" For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." ( Titus 2:11-14 )

Here I see much to digest.
I've also highlighted what I believe are significant pronouns that shed light on who is the target of the "all men":

11) The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
Who are the "all men" in this passage?

12) Teaching us ( the "all men"...God's people out of every tongue, tribe and nation? I believe that the least that could be stated, is that the "all men" are defined in this verse..."us". ) that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world.
Who are the "us" and "we"?

I think it's obvious...believers, not unbelievers.
You decide.

No don't agree my friend. Down below the same scripture and my comments in purple.

" For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, ( the message has gone forth to the whole human race. It may have started in a certain area but to all men it goes to via the Great Commission

12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (who does the "us" refer to? To just the elect? Nope But all who live within this global citizenry. Paul even demonstrated this in his preaching to the Athenians where he said, "For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed." Acts 17:31 One can see that fits in nicely with vs 12

13 looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ; (Yes that's the message that all men are encouraged to believe. The foolish virgins in Matt 25 were told that's what should have been their focus to keep watch for the bridegroom)

14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." ( Titus 2:11-14 ) And that's the end result . God's message to the world is I want to create a new type of people, a new breed with the life, love and nature of God within. That's the message of God which is meant to go forth to the whole world. Not just some of it but all of it.

We see this principle in a secular way with businesses. I can illustrate with an example of say, the Atkins diet. Their program has appeared to all men of the world. All men may not choose to look at it but it's intended to be a program for all to consider none-the less. It's appeared we can say unto all men and what does it teach "us"? Meaning "us" individually plus everyone else in the world. It teaches "US" to eat only certain foods at certain times of the day. You can't just restrict the "Us" to mean only a few. He had already stated it was universal in it's scope the all men that the message was going out for.

 

[Rockson]

Where is the out-and-out declaration that God gives men a choice?

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deuteronomy 30:15-20

Now David please don't come back and say God doesn't give men a choice. You can't get it any more clear. Choose life or death! Yes that's a verse in the OT but doesn't matter. It's the universal principal. Jesus said in the gospels to those resisting him, "You will not come to me to have life!" Jn 5:40 They choose death in fact these very resistors were the physical seed to whom this covenant still applied. And what are we Gentiles? Not the seed of Abraham by faith? All still MUST choose life or death every human being. The very gospel we hold forth is called the word of life! Phil 2:16-18

 

[Rockson]

God has, in fact, revealed Himself to His creation via natural revelation. Those who live in remote areas who have never had a bible placed in their hand, never had someone witness to them, they know God exists.

I'm well aware of that. You missed the point though of my saying this==>Atheists claim God revealing himself through creation isn't proof of his existence. He doesn't jump through hoops to provide further things when what he's provided should be self evident that he does . As one sees the character and nature of God in scripture likewise there's no further need to ask for proof....men have the will to choose. The poster was pressing me for a scripture which actually says we have free will unto salvation. My point was that'd be like an atheists badgering a God believer to give him more evidence other than creation that he exists.

God would say you don't need it what I've provided naturally substantiates that as far as he is concerned. The whole story of Genesis and the fall where Adam & Eve chose by free will should serve a foundation for the free will belief. You see God doesn't jump through unnecessary hoops to get us to believe a basic concept one that he's fully revealed. He would deem that giving into our foolishness. In a sense he would be saying to us, "Stop that nonsense!"

Free will of men has been established. Even the story of Job bears that out. Satan challenged God insinuating he wasn't being good but rather being self-serving for not allowing Job to be put into a position where he might stop serving him. God allowed the test to demonstrate he wasn't stopping men from choosing yea or nay in regard to relationship to himself...FREE WILL. And so we have men today who still want to challenge the basic concept of FREE WILL? I think sincere and well meaning believers should realize where exactly that type of question originates from.

Sure there's variable things that happen in the earth, where a person, people or nation receives judgement, (study the history of Israel/Egypt right before Moses) They deserved judgement. A part of that might be God doing A for he knows that persons own self-serving pride will lead them a certain direction as in Pharaoh of Egypt but it's still that person ALL THE WAY walking in their own free choice. God doesn't make choices for people. Free will exists. Such doesn't mean however that one can choose by "free will" the consequences of their actions...ah now that's God's territory.

 

[Dave G]

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deuteronomy 30:15-20

Now David please don't come back and say God doesn't give men a choice. You can't get it any more clear. Choose life or death! Yes that's a verse in the OT but doesn't matter.

Rockson, who is this passage above speaking to, in Deuteronomy?

" These [are] the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb." ( Deuteronomy 29:1 )

I see it as Israel, and Israel alone.

A nation that God made a covenant with, under the Law.
A nation that was responsible to follow that which they promised to do ( Exodus 19:8, Exodus 24:3-7 ).
A nation that went back on their promises more times than I can count, just in my reading of God's word.

He is speaking to them, not to all of mankind.
That is what I see when I read the entire book of Deuteronomy in context.

To me, one hasn't far back to go in the chapters, to establish who God is speaking to, and it matters quite a bit how the verses are used.




With that said, do you know of a passage in God's word that speaks this way to all of mankind, instead of being aimed at the 12 tribes of Israel, whom God used His prophets to speak through?

It's the universal principal. Jesus said in the gospels to those resisting him, "You will not come to me to have life!" Jn 5:40 They choose death in fact these very resistors were the physical seed to whom this covenant still applied.

I don't see a universal principle of God offering a choice to all men when I read Scripture, except in Acts of the Apostles 17:22-31.
There, I see one thing "offered":
God commanding men to repent.

And what are we Gentiles? Not the seed of Abraham by faith?

Yes, I see Scripture clearly stating that the Gentile believers are the spiritual seed of Abraham by faith, as well as believing Jews.

All still MUST choose life or death every human being. The very gospel we hold forth is called the word of life! Phil 2:16-18

Regrettably, that seems to be your conclusion from Scripture, but not mine.

Rockson, I wish it were that simple...I really do.
I don't sit on this side of the fence because it is the most desirable place to be...I'm here because I genuinely see these things in Scripture.

If salvation were up to me, I would make it exactly the way you describe.
Available to all, with the determining factor left up to men to choose.



But God's taking of a people out of the nations ( Acts of the Apostles 15:14 ) is not up to me...it's up to Him.
What He says about it, in great detail, is both fascinating to me and it also sobers me greatly.
His word tells me that men have already made their choice in their hearts, and they've given Him the thumbs down.

Nobody would be saved if He didn't do it, and He chooses not to do it for everyone...only a seed.
A seed that numbers, most probably, in the millions ( Revelation 7:9 ).

This is my final reply to you in this thread.


May God bless you in your studies and in your personal life.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

None of us are perfect Dave that's for sure. I heard the tale of a person who claimed there was two perfect people. They and another individual and sometimes they had doubts about them!



No don't agree my friend. Down below the same scripture and my comments in purple.

" For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, ( the message has gone forth to the whole human race. It may have started in a certain area but to all men it goes to via the Great Commission

12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (who does the "us" refer to? To just the elect? Nope But all who live within this global citizenry. Paul even demonstrated this in his preaching to the Athenians where he said, "For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed." Acts 17:31 One can see that fits in nicely with vs 12

13 looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ; (Yes that's the message that all men are encouraged to believe. The foolish virgins in Matt 25 were told that's what should have been their focus to keep watch for the bridegroom)

14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." ( Titus 2:11-14 ) And that's the end result . God's message to the world is I want to create a new type of people, a new breed with the life, love and nature of God within. That's the message of God which is meant to go forth to the whole world. Not just some of it but all of it.

We see this principle in a secular way with businesses. I can illustrate with an example of say, the Atkins diet. Their program has appeared to all men of the world. All men may not choose to look at it but it's intended to be a program for all to consider none-the less. It's appeared we can say unto all men and what does it teach "us"? Meaning "us" individually plus everyone else in the world. It teaches "US" to eat only certain foods at certain times of the day. You can't just restrict the "Us" to mean only a few. He had already stated it was universal in it's scope the all men that the message was going out for.

It seems that the Bible says you are mistaken.

Acts 13:48 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

 

[Rockson]

It seems that the Bible says you are mistaken.

Acts 13:48 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Or is it rather your interpretation of the Bible is mistaken? Paul in the same chapter before your quoted verse states in vs 16, "Men of Israel, and you who fear God listen" Ones who fear God not Jews? Had to mean they weren't totally depraved then right? So they had some revelation which they had received but needed it topped up with the next thing God needed to reveal...the reason for Jesus coming.

Seems like they were saved up to the revelation they had so far. So why could it not be said because they were already receptive and had received, these believers were appointed to the end result of eternal life? To be ...appointed to hear the gospel for them was equivalent to being appointed to eternal life. Their choices to walk in God's ways had already taken place. Certainly for such ones they'd be appointed for LIFE. They just needed to hear new message which would draw them in the rest of the way. No place to suggest free will choice was not involved.

 

[Rockson]

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deuteronomy 30:15-20

Rockson, who is this passage above speaking to, in Deuteronomy?

" These [are] the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb." ( Deuteronomy 29:1 )

I see it as Israel, and Israel alone.

Well to start my friend at least you've acknowledged there at least have been some people God had given the free will to choose life. At least that knocks down Hyper Calvinism that God determines everything. Don't you have an added problem though. You've basically just acknowledged as well that some of the elect got to choose whether they'd be saved or not saved. Doesn't Calvinism claim God makes that determination and man has nothing to do with it? I'd sincerely encourage you not to think you have to go back and defend Calvinistic thought. Maybe just take some time, think about Deut 30:15-20 Perhaps you'll see a new conclusion that truly Calvinism just doesn't seem to add up.

A nation that God made a covenant with, under the Law.

Well we both know that still doesn't do away with the fact that they got to choose their outcome....life or death.

A nation that went back on their promises more times than I can count, just in my reading of God's word.

I agree they did. But I have to repeat they still got to choose their outcome. When I say choose their outcome I'm not meaning they can choose sin and rebellion and their outcome after that. Nope...sin brings death. But they still got to choose obedience unto life or disobedience unto death.

He is speaking to them, not to all of mankind.
That is what I see when I read the entire book of Deuteronomy in context.

But Dave why? God granting them the right to choose was to give them the dignity of not being mere automations. Why should you think God would change that? To me it seems the only reason you would to that is to keep the ship of Calvinism floating. If it truly does have a big whole in it why not just let it sink. Maybe not wise to say even God and his word can't sink it.

With that said, do you know of a passage in God's word that speaks this way to all of mankind, instead of being aimed at the 12 tribes of Israel, whom God used His prophets to speak through?

Well again let's not loose sight of these 12 tribes of Israel were a part of mankind too! So we've established that at least some human beings got to choose whether they were the elect. But really if we're going to talk about the covenants of Israel you actually don't have salvation to us without it. Jer 31:31 says he was going to make a new covenant with the House of Israel and we the Gentiles have been grafted in. If God gave his people the dignity to make the choice to life in the old why would he take it away in the new?

I don't see a universal principle of God offering a choice to all men when I read Scripture, except in Acts of the Apostles 17:22-31.
There, I see one thing "offered":
God commanding men to repent.

Of course Dave. But you can choose to respond to the command or not. Isn't that exactly what
Deuteronomy 30 the same chapter which talks about the choosing says? I'll provide for you the enlarged passage,

vs 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. vs 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; vs 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. and now vs 19--> I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Duet 30:16-19

So can't we see choosing is merely responding to the command? If it's that way in the OT...why not the new? As you rightly pointed out Acts 17:22-31 they're given the command. They responded. The response is choice in action.

Regrettably, that seems to be your conclusion from Scripture, but not mine.

Well I'm hoping you might change that. No offense but I think you'd see God in a whole new gracious light in regard to his character. At least give it some thought.

Rockson, I wish it were that simple...I really do.
I don't sit on this side of the fence because it is the most desirable place to be...I'm here because I genuinely see these things in Scripture.

If salvation were up to me, I would make it exactly the way you describe.
Available to all, with the determining factor left up to men to choose.

Well that tells me a lot right there. You just acknowledged your beliefs aren't desirable to you. And you add if it were up to you you'd have salvation work (for want of a better word) the way I described. Why? Why would you? I'll suggest to you why. Because you know based on your inward sense of justice Calvinism seems unjust BUT you're willing to set that aside because you're thinking you'd displease God by so doing.

You might want to consider Dave that there is what's called a God given conscience and yours seems to be working just fine. God in man at birth has placed in him the basic concepts of what's right or wrong, just and unjust and the REAL conscience that God gave you is truly opposite of Calvinistic belief. Know this Dave.Your conscience is correct.

Let me say many get involved in the complexities of theological debate and yes some things are complex. But you know what? One way a person of good conscience can know if something is right or wrong is does it run contrary to good conscience. One may not understand how to answer every single scripture Calvinists bring forth but you can know because of conscience that there just has to be a shake down of those verses to get the true meaning. God doesn't provide conscience and run contrary to it with theology. Well conscience isn't a safe guide? Well perhaps not totally but with good men who haven't perverted themselves it very much is. I think you're one such individual.

This is my final reply to you in this thread.

Well that saddens me to see that. For I truly felt I gave you a good rebuttal not to win some argument but to help you with what I consider the truth. If you do read the post at least give it some thought. PEACE

 

[The Biblicist]

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This verse has been used countless times in conversation both here and face-to-face with my Calvinist brothers. It is used anytime the discussion turns to Unconditional Election or Irresistible Grace. I will immediately concede that I believe the Father does indeed draw men to the Lord Jesus Christ. And, I will go so far as to say that NO MAN can be saved unless the Father draws him.

Then, we read in John 12:32, "[Jesus said] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
The Bible is clear that Jesus also draws men to Himself. So, how can the two verses be reconciled?

Would you agree that you are dealing with two completely different contexts? I think that is obvious if one examines John 6 versus John 12.

The context of John 6 will not allow your universal interpretation for at least two solid contextual based reasons:

1. Jesus cites a plurality of prophets to explain what he means by "draw" in verse 45. There can be no question that one of them is Isaiah 54:13 as he practically quotes it word for word. Isaian defines "all" God teaches to be "THY CHILDREN" in the context of his new covenant. The other prophet is Jeremiah 31:31-34 where God teaches his children in a context that limits it to New covenant children with not one failing to come to faith in God due to the fact that His teaching is internal (v. 33) securing every single one of that "all" (v. 34). Paul quotes the same text in hebrews 8 and 10 as referring to the New Covenant.

2. John 6:64-65 gives an example of some that professed Christ but Jesus knew never really believed in him and the reason for the continuance in unbelief is that that father never did "give" what the text identifies as "it" unto them. The "it" refers the ability needed to overcome their inability to come to Christ.

3. So, John 6 limits the "all" to covenant children of God.

Neither will the context of John 12:20-32 allow for your universal interpretation. The context is introduced by Greeks wanting to come see Christ. The Jews would have no dealings with Gentiles (Jn. 4:1-2; Acts 10:28). John 6 limited to the covenant children of God whom the Jews restricted to Israel alone excluding Gentilies. In John 12:32 Jesus uses the anarthrous construct which may be translated "all classes/kinds of men" thus including Gentiles into the New Covenant children.

Hence, no such contradiction exists no dilemma exists, just proper exegesis within the confines of each context.