Who is He? A Trinity? A Oneness?

3AngelsMom · Jul 15, 2003

Originally posted by A_Christian:
Firstborn seems to indicate that Christ is
PARAMOUNT and the term has nothing to do with HIS
position of creation but in creating.
Click to expand...

Why?

What indication do you have in the Bible that states that this word should suddenly have a different meaning when in this context?

God Bless,
Kelly

3AngelsMom · Jul 15, 2003

A_Christian

By the way, I do not represent the SDA beliefs.

I am a HISTORIC Seventh Day Adventist. (so is RickyLee)

Our beliefs are according to the original belief structure of the SDA Church, prior to the death of Ellen White.

Just so you know.

Modern SDA's don't agree with us. (BobRyan, Komoroso)

God Bless,
Kelly

Carson Weber · Jul 15, 2003

Hi Kelly,

So, which is it?

1. You worship Jesus who is not God.
2. You worship Jesus who is God as well as the Father who is God, and so you confess a form of polytheism.

Either you're proposing a form of idolatry or polytheism, aren't you?

Carson Weber · Jul 15, 2003

Kelly, I read this on smyrna.org:

Do you see? It is the Father in Jesus, and Jesus in us. They are with us in spirit form, not in bodily form. This is why the presence of them with us is called the Holy Spirit.

I assume, if you adhere to the doctrines this website proposes for acceptance, that you deny the personhood of the Holy Spirit and that, rather, this is just a fancy way of saying "the Father and Jesus are with us in spirit form".

With that in mind, why is the Holy Spirit used right alongside "Father" and "Son" in the baptismal formula of the Great Commission in Matthew 28?

3AngelsMom · Jul 16, 2003

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi Kelly,

So, which is it?

1. You worship Jesus who is not God.
2. You worship Jesus who is God as well as the Father who is God, and so you confess a form of polytheism.

Either you're proposing a form of idolatry or polytheism, aren't you?
Click to expand...

No, I am proposing that we have no other gods before Him. The Bible said that God told all the angels to worship Jesus, when He brought the Only Begotten Son of God into the world.

If the angels can worship Him, and it not be polytheism, or idolatry, so can I!

Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Kelly

Carson Weber · Jul 16, 2003

Hi Kelly,

If you're asking us to worship someone who is not God, then you're asking us to commit ourselves to idolatry.

If you're telling us to worship someone who is God but is not God the Father, then you are asking us to commit to a form of polytheism, unless (of course) There is one God with two separate persons who share the divine nature.

This is the tough situation you've placed both yourself and your hearers in.

3AngelsMom · Jul 16, 2003

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Kelly, I read this on smyrna.org:

Do you see? It is the Father in Jesus, and Jesus in us. They are with us in spirit form, not in bodily form. This is why the presence of them with us is called the Holy Spirit.

I assume, if you adhere to the doctrines this website proposes for acceptance, that you deny the personhood of the Holy Spirit and that, rather, this is just a fancy way of saying "the Father and Jesus are with us in spirit form".

With that in mind, why is the Holy Spirit used right alongside "Father" and "Son" in the baptismal formula of the Great Commission in Matthew 28?
Click to expand...

How did the Apostles Baptize?

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

So we have to make a choice here. Either Matt 28 is a forgery, or the Apostles disobeyed Jesus.

Because NONE of them Baptized in the NAME OF The Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

The Oneness crowd, I believe, calls this verse 'titles', because they believe Jesus to be the One God, all by Himself. Which makes less sense than a trinity, to me.

This verse in Matt 28 means something.

That the Father, and the Son have the same name, the Father, because He is God, and the Son, by inheritance, and the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of both the Father and the Son, therefore it IS God's Spirit, and has the same name.

I was baptized in the name of Jesus, by my husband, and was also baptized when I joined the SDA Church in the 'titles', as they are called.

I think it matters not. Based on the Acts 8:15 text, the Spirit of God does not come upon a believer at Baptism. The people they were incountering had been Baptized, and didn't have the HS. It wasn't until 'hands' were laid on them that they received it.

How did the Apostles get the "Holy Spirit" (in your perspective as a trinitarian)? According to the Bible Jesus BREATHED on them.

It was JESUS'S Spirit. Jesus's BREATH. Pneuma.

The LIFE that is the light of all men. The life that was given to Him by God, He passes on to all men.

Makes perfect sense.

Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Kelly

Carson Weber · Jul 16, 2003

Hi Kelly,

You wrote, "Either Matt 28 is a forgery, or the Apostles disobeyed Jesus."

Which of these two options do you yourself choose? Is this Scripture a forgery or did the Apostles disobey Jesus?

3AngelsMom · Jul 16, 2003

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi Kelly,

If you're asking us to worship someone who is not God, then you're asking us to commit ourselves to idolatry.

If you're telling us to worship someone who is God but is not God the Father, then you are asking us to commit to a form of polytheism, unless (of course) There is one God with two separate persons who share the divine nature.

This is the tough situation you've placed both yourself and your hearers in.
Click to expand...

Why do you act like you are illiterate?

Do you read the Bible, or do you just get your doctrines from your teachers, and that's what you go by?

Do you KNOW what verses I am referring to?

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

We all know who this verse is talking about. If God allowed the Angels to worship Jesus, then so can I without any fear of breaking the Commandment.

The Apostle Paul didn't seem to have a problem understanding this concept.

Phi 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Jesus didn't either:

Joh 4:7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
Joh 4:8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
Joh 4:9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
Joh 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
Joh 4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
Joh 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Joh 4:15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.
Joh 4:16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.
Joh 4:17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
Joh 4:18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.
Joh 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
Joh 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Joh 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
Joh 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
Joh 4:27 And upon this came his disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her?
Joh 4:28 The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,
Joh 4:29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?
Joh 4:30 Then they went out of the city, and came unto him.

It baffles me that someone like you can't seem to grasp such a simple concept.

Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Kelly

3AngelsMom · Jul 16, 2003

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi Kelly,

You wrote, "Either Matt 28 is a forgery, or the Apostles disobeyed Jesus."

Which of these two options do you yourself choose? Is this Scripture a forgery or did the Apostles disobey Jesus?
Click to expand...

Uh, I fully explained that.

Neither.

They are titles. It is IN THE NAME of the Father, Son and Spirit that we are to be baptized in.

How about you?

Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Kelly

Carson Weber · Jul 16, 2003

Hi Kelly,

You're asking me to worship someone other than God. I'm sorry, but I can't do that.

for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God (Ex 34:14).

You are asking us to commit idolatry, to break God's holy commandment.

3AngelsMom · Jul 16, 2003

I'm not asking you to do anything.

Show me ONCE where I told you, or anyone else here to worship Jesus!

Do you actually think you are funny?

Give yourself a break Carson, you appear to need one.

The Bible, in no place tells man to worship anyone other than God.

It does, however tell the Angels of God to worship Jesus.

The Angels of God are under the same Law we are.

They CAN, and HAVE sinned.

If Angels were told to worship Jesus, then so can I, without any danger of breaking the first Commandment.

You see, when I worship Him I am rejoicing that He is Lord, I am not worshipping Him as God. Therefore, I am not having another god before God.

Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Kelly

Carson Weber · Jul 16, 2003

You see, when I worship Him I am rejoicing that He is Lord, I am not worshipping Him as God. Therefore, I am not having another god before God.

I wasn't aware that we can now worship someone as anything other than God. This is a new twist on worship, which I think you should share with our Jewish friends.

Can I worship you as Kelly? How about worshipping.. pinenuts - if I really, really like the taste of them?

3AngelsMom · Jul 16, 2003

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
You see, when I worship Him I am rejoicing that He is Lord, I am not worshipping Him as God. Therefore, I am not having another god before God.

I wasn't aware that we can now worship someone as anything other than God. This is a new twist on worship, which I think you should share with our Jewish friends.

Can I worship you as Kelly? How about worshipping.. pinenuts - if I really, really like the taste of them?
Click to expand...

Or perhaps we should share that with our Catholic friends who worship every dead saint since Peter? Or perhaps we should ask them what to do if we come upon an IMAGE of Jesus?

Who do you think you are fooling?

Do you honestly think anyone believes a word you just said?

YOU can't worship anyone other than God????

What's this guy doing?

Carson Weber · Jul 16, 2003

YOU can't worship anyone other than God????

Yes, I can, but it would be committing an act of idolatry. So, I choose not to, because I love God and wish not to sin against him.

What's this guy doing?

That particular bishop is kissing the ring on the hand of the bishop of Rome, which is a symbol of the office the pope holds. It is an act of respect, acknowledging the authority the pope has. Every Catholic bishop has a ring signifying his office as a legitimately appointed successor to the apostles, and when I greet a bishop, I, like the bishop above, kiss his ring.

With regard to the veneration of sacred images, the Catechism teaches: "The honor paid to sacred images is a 'respectful veneration,' not the adoration due to God alone" (CCC 2132).

Any further accusation, on your part, that Catholic teaching allows for adoration of anyone or anything other than God alone is based upon false witness and a deliberate misrepresentation of Catholic doctrine.

DHK · Jul 16, 2003

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by A_Christian:
Firstborn seems to indicate that Christ is
PARAMOUNT and the term has nothing to do with HIS
position of creation but in creating.
Click to expand...

Why?

Firstborn much of the time refers to "pre-eminence," not necessarily the one born first.

Col.1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Psa.89:20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

In Colossians Jesus is referred to as the firstborn, an Old English word that simply means, having the pre-eminence, being the most important, if you will. This is well demonstrated in Psalm 89, where the Psalmist speaks of David. We see that in verse 20 that he is talking of David. Then speaking of David, he says in verse 27, "I will make him my firstborn. Now remember that David was Jesse's last born, not firstborn. He was the youngest in the family. When Saul went to anoint the next king of Israel, all of David's older brothers passed in front of Samuel first. Then Samuel asked if there were any others in the household. Only a young lad tending the sheep. David was the youngest, and yet important enough to be reckoned as the firstborn, for he had the pre-eminence among the all. He was the most important. So it is with Christ.
DHK

What indication do you have in the Bible that states that this word should suddenly have a different meaning when in this context?

God Bless,
Kelly </font>[/QUOTE]

3AngelsMom · Jul 16, 2003

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
YOU can't worship anyone other than God????

Yes, I can, but it would be committing an act of idolatry. So, I choose not to, because I love God and wish not to sin against him.

What's this guy doing?

That particular bishop is kissing the ring on the hand of the bishop of Rome, which is a symbol of the office the pope holds. It is an act of respect, acknowledging the authority the pope has. Every Catholic bishop has a ring signifying his office as a legitimately appointed successor to the apostles, and when I greet a bishop, I, like the bishop above, kiss his ring.

With regard to the veneration of sacred images, the Catechism teaches: "The honor paid to sacred images is a 'respectful veneration,' not the adoration due to God alone" (CCC 2132).

Any further accusation, on your part, that Catholic teaching allows for adoration of anyone or anything other than God alone is based upon false witness and a deliberate misrepresentation of Catholic doctrine.
Click to expand...

I didn't accuse any Catholics of anything.

You are falsly accusing me.

Any further accusation that I am accusing Catholics will be false witness.

Carson Weber · Jul 16, 2003

I didn't accuse any Catholics of anything.

Of course you did.

I refer you to your post of 11:38 PM on July 12, 2003, of which the above post duplicates in part with regard to the question, "What's this guy doing?" and the photo of the bishop imported from photoisland.com.

In that post, you have already expressed your intention: "Those pictures were about the Pope and people worshipping idols."

Here is the link:

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=001791;p=10

Your post is the fifth post from the top.

3AngelsMom · Jul 16, 2003

DHK,

So was Jesus like the 3,553,667,854,788,976,234th born, and God MADE Him the firstborn?

I'm not getting how David's taking the throne by God's command has anything to do with the literal Sonship of Christ.

God Bless,
Kelly

DHK · Jul 16, 2003

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
DHK,

So was Jesus like the 3,553,667,854,788,976,234th born, and God MADE Him the firstborn?

I'm not getting how David's taking the throne by God's command has anything to do with the literal Sonship of Christ.

God Bless,
Kelly
Click to expand...

The word doesn't mean "born first" It means to have the pre-eminence. It is speaking of importance.

Col.1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col.1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the most important of every creature:

Who is He? A Trinity? A Oneness?

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