OldRegular
Well-Known Member
No one is deserving of Salvation. God chooses to bring some to Salvation and leave in their fallen state. Why, I don't know! If you are worried about it when you see HIM ask.
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Who Maketh Thee To Differ From Another
- Thread starter OldRegular
- Start date
psalms109:31
Active Member
Believe
None of us should ever believe what we can do can save us, but we can believe Jesus can save us and know we will not be disappointed in Him.
None of us should ever believe what we can do can save us, but we can believe Jesus can save us and know we will not be disappointed in Him.
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This is true of believers but God is not at work in the lost. Not that He can't but God does not cause men to sin.
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Paul was speaking to Christians. He wasn't speaking of being driven to our knees in submission.
MB
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Never said they were deserving. This is not about what we deserve, its about what God has promised.
So you pick option A? Where is the biblical support.
Which answer does the bible support:
A. Because God has punished them by making them born in a state of total depravity due to the Fall of Adam and did not choose to save them from this condition leaving them to certain damnation.
B. Despite God's long suffering and patience with them (2 Peter 3:9; 1 Tim 2:4), holding out his hands to them (Rom. 10:21) desiring them to come to repentance (Mt. 11:28), revealing His divine attributes and eternal nature (Rm 1) along with the clear message of reconciliation (2 Cor 5:11), they rebelled and their hearts grew calloused making them without excuse (Rm 1; Acts 28). They resisted the Holy Spirit just like many of their fathers did before them (Acts 7:21). Their hearts had grown hardened, OTHERWISE they might see, hear, and repent (Act 28:21-28; John 12:39-41).
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You are incorrect. I did not pick either option you listed. You can interpret my response as you desire but you do so incorrectly. I chose a 3rd and Biblically correct option only I left out a word which I now include in RED.
God chooses to bring some to Salvation and leave others in their fallen state. Why, I don't know! If you are worried about it when you see HIM ask.
Still asking if you believe prayer changes things........i.e. does God respond to prayer. Would it have been answered if I were not one of the Chosen. If it were effective only because I was chosen then it was not effective at all. And to satisfy jcjordan, it would also be illogical. Love often defies logic which is probably why it amazes our enemies when we pray for them. Praying for sinners to trust in Jesus would certainly be in accordance with the will of God since He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. All don't though, so some other factors cause God to moderate His desire.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Though off topic I will respond.
It is not unreasonable to question, if God is sovereign why pray at all? The answer to that is simply that Scripture demands that we pray. What should we pray about? Whatever troubles us. However, we are not promised that our prayers will be answered as we desire. Consider the following
record of a prayer, offered in faith, for a temporal need that was not granted:
2 Corinthians 12:8,9, NKJV
8. Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.
9. And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
Commenting on the above passage W. Bingham Hunter [The God Who Hears] writes the following:
“Paul’s experience highlights the simple but profound truth that prayer is not the means by which we get what we want, rather it is a means that God uses to give us what he wants.”
I essentially agree with Hunter's explanation of prayer, at least until I hear a better one.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
What about option A is inconsistent with your views?
A. Because God has punished them by making them born in a state of total depravity due to the Fall of Adam and did not choose to save them from this condition leaving them to certain damnation.
Please explain.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
If you can't understand the difference nothing I could say would penetrate!
So, the only reason you pray is because God commands you to? You do not believe prayer can change things? That is truly sad, and unscriptural. Jesus taught that we can ask for things we need, and even for things we desire.
Mark 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
And God answers prayer. He added 15 years to king Hezekiah's life, and promised to deliver Jerusalem.
Isa 38:5 Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.
6 And I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria: and I will defend this city.
God answered Zacharias and Elisabeth's prayer and gave them a son, John the Baptist.
Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
7 And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years.
Luke 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't believe they can pray to God, who doesn't believe God is concerned for us, and doesn't believe prayer can change things. It certainly changed king Hezekiah's life, it changed Zacharias and Elisabeth's life.
Jesus said not to pray vain, meaningless words, which would be the case if you simply prayed because you were told to.
Matt 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I have long thought that there was some Word of Faith heresy in your beliefs!
Jesus taught that if we abide in HIM and we pray according to HIS will:
1 John 14. And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
John 15:7. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
John 16:23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
John 16:26. At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
You see if we abide in Jesus Christ and HIS word abides in us we are not going to expect that HE will answer contrary to HIS will for us. We are not going to be like the Word Faithers and expect HIM to bow and scrape at our every whim.
I feel sorry for you Winman! You have the mistaken idea that you know the mind of GOD. Don't you understand that John the Baptist was the fulfillment of prophecy. Are you certain that it was not GOD's plan to extend the life of Hezekiah prior to his prayer? You have the same attitude as the Word Faithers. Why not ask GOD to create 10 million jobs in this country? Why not ask GOD to stop all abortions since you have the POWER?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Old regular. I suggest you stop being different. :laugh:
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I see the difference in your answer and option A, that is not what I asked.
I asked, "What about option A is inconsistent with your views?"
Thank you for the patronizing tone, it keeps me humble. :thumbsup:
First of all, I don't believe we can pray for something outside God's will. We can't pray to win the lottery, because the lottery is a dishonest way to get money. We are supposed to work and earn our money. So God will not answer this type of prayer. But let's say you read a difficult passage of scripture and sincerely want to understand it, you can pray for understanding and God will give it to you.
We can pray for a lost family member to be saved, for it is God's will that all men be saved. We can pray for our country that it turn back to God. And I have prayed along with many other millions of Americans to have the abortion laws reversed, and there has been some improvement in these laws. We must keep on praying on this matter.
And though Paul's prayer to be relieved of a physical ailment was not granted to him, Paul said he prayed three times to God to relieve his suffering. Now, I hardly believe Paul would have prayed for healing of a physical ailment from God if it was wrong or sinful to do so. And I am sure Paul had a clear understanding of what things a person can pray for or not.
So, answer me this, if it is wrong to pray for personal reasons, why did Paul knowingly pray three times to God for physical healing?
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Always willing to help out those in need!:laugh:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Winman you are pathetic in your ability to understand the English language!
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Why don't you answer the question?
Why did Paul pray for his own personal healing if it is wrong to ask for personal wants or needs?
What? Paul didn't understand scripture as well as you? Paul was in error?
That is the arrogance I see with Cals/DoGs. You think you are more expert in doctrine than Paul!
Why did Paul pray for his own personal healing if it is wrong to ask for personal wants or needs?
What? Paul didn't understand scripture as well as you? Paul was in error?
That is the arrogance I see with Cals/DoGs. You think you are more expert in doctrine than Paul!