Who or What is the Creator of our Dead Soul?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: I believe God’s Holy Spirit deals with sinners prior to salvation. You place that wherever you so desire, but in doing so that is a relationship of some kind with mankind. Scripture states clearly that the Holy Spirit can be withdrawn, we are warned not to reject His leadings, and that we are not to grieve the Holy Spirit away. If only a believer has the Holy Spirit in any measure, you must conclude believers can be lost from these passages. I thought you believed in OSAS? Maybe I am wrong about your beliefs.

Marcia: How can one be born in a relationship with God?

HP: Simple. As I said, all relationships with God are not salvic ones. Did you read my illustrations in the last post?
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HP: As I have said before, I do not believe a child is born with a salvation relationship with God, but I am fully convinced God draws children often from and age much prior to the age of accountability.

Marcia: So if they are not born saved, what state are they in? One is either unsaved and not in relationship with God or saved and in relationship with God.

HP: You did not read my last post. Man is neither born in a salvic state, nor could he be. Salvation is reserved for those that have sinned. Scripture does not tell us much concerning the state of infants and small children. We know it is not a Slavic one, for infants and young children cannot even comprehend salvaton, no less accept it by faith.

Whatever you desire to call that relationship, Jesus said “of such is the kingdom of heaven.” No relationship of any kind? No salvation or heaven as ones home. There are clearly three, NOT TWO, relationships to consider. Infants and those prior to the age of accountability, sinners subsequent to the age of accountability, and saved, those that have entered into the relationship of salvation, an experience limited to the age subsequent to moral accountability.


Quote:
HP: Even Judas had had a relationship with God, a familiar friend that in the end betrayed Him. I would ask if in fact Judas had a relationship with Christ on some level? I would say yes, even to the point of entertaining a hope of eternal life at point and being a partaker of the ministry. You may or may not go that far, but to deny all relationship with Christ (God manifest in the flesh) is outside of what I would denote reason.

Marcia: Judas did not have a saving relationship with Christ. Judas is somewhat different in that he knew Christ personally in the flesh. But he did not have a saving relationship. I can post scriptures to that effect if you ask.

HP: There is no solid evidence one way or another. There is good evidence as I see both ways. Can you be a partaker of the gifts of the ministry of Christ and not be saved? I personally do not believe so, but I know the Scripture you will point to of Jesus calling him a devil. When you accept the presupposition of OSAS you are forced to interpret every passage as proof of your position.

 

[Marcia]

HP: I believe God’s Holy Spirit deals with sinners prior to salvation. You place that wherever you so desire, but in doing so that is a relationship of some kind with mankind. Scripture states clearly that the Holy Spirit can be withdrawn, we are warned not to reject His leadings, and that we are not to grieve the Holy Spirit away. If only a believer has the Holy Spirit in any measure, you must conclude believers can be lost from these passages. I thought you believed in OSAS? Maybe I am wrong about your beliefs.

I don't agree with you about relationship - unless one wants to say that as Creator, we have a relationship with God as the created - but we are still born spiritually separated from God. The only kind of relationship that counts is the one that is regenerated -the spiritual reconciliation and relationship that the Bible tells us we need.

I don't see how what I've said means I believe that one can lose one's salvation.

HP: Simple. As I said, all relationships with God are not salvic ones. Did you read my illustrations in the last post?
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HP: As I have said before, I do not believe a child is born with a salvation relationship with God, but I am fully convinced God draws children often from and age much prior to the age of accountability.

Yes, I read this. It does not negate my view that one is born spiritually separated from God. You seem to think God cannot draw spiritually separated people to Himself; well, this happens all the time.

HP: You did not read my last post. Man is neither born in a salvic state, nor could he be. Salvation is reserved for those that have sinned. Scripture does not tell us much concerning the state of infants and small children. We know it is not a Slavic one, for infants and young children cannot even comprehend salvaton, no less accept it by faith.

Yes, I did read your post. You are dead wrong. Salvation is for everyone - everyone needs salvation and everyone is born a sinner. I have said numerous times that an infant or child unable to believe can still be saved by God's grace, since that is how we are all saved. But the Bible is not clear on children and infants, so all your statements about children are merely your opinion.

Whatever you desire to call that relationship, Jesus said “of such is the kingdom of heaven.”

Yes, because their trust is the kind of trust we should have. And I have never said that young children or infants don't go to heaven. But they are still born spiritually dead. God can regenerate and save them by grace. That scenario is just as valid as yours, and more in keeping with the Bible that tells us we are all in need of redemption - no exceptions.

Can you be a partaker of the gifts of the ministry of Christ and not be saved? I personally do not believe so, but I know the Scripture you will point to of Jesus calling him a devil. When you accept the presupposition of OSAS you are forced to interpret every passage as proof of your position.

I don't think Judas benefited from his relationship with Jesus or he would not have done what he did. He could have benefited but rejected Jesus for who he was. Judas was never saved and there is no indication that he was.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: I don't agree with you about relationship ....

HP: The scripture no where indicate that infants need spiritual reconciliation, but rather directly to the contrary, “for such is the kingdom of heaven.” Of a truth, infants and small children have a relationship with God, although I indicated, not a salvic one. They have absolutely no need of being saved. They are born innocent.

The Scripture clearly warns ‘someone’ of the possibility of grieving away the Holy Spirit. Can anyone be saved apart from the possession of the Holy Spirit to guide them into truth? If you say no Christian could lose their salvation, you would have to admit that the Holy Spirit can be grieved away from someone, the lost man being the only other person to point to. If a lost man has absolutely no relationship with God, how on earth could he grieve the Holy Spirit away? I understand you to say that a lost man does not and cannot have a relationship of any kind with God. My point is that your position on ‘relationships’ point to clear problems with Scripture as I see it. There are other relationships to have with God other than salvic ones. Even Satan himself entertains now a relationship with God on some level, for how else could he still commune with God as we see him doing in Job? It would appear to me that although not always salvic (no universalism here) all have some form of a relationship with God that will last until he draws this world to a close, unless the Holy Spirit has completely withdrawn Himself from that individual.

Marcia: It does not negate my view that one is born spiritually separated from God.

HP: Who is the Creator our souls Marcia? Can God create spiritually separated (dead) souls and blame and punish them for being the necessitated sinners OS causes them to be? Why shy away from saying all are created spiritually dead if in fact that is precisely what in essence you claim all are born as? There are only three choices as I see it, two of which you reject. You are either born spiritually neutral, spiritually alive or spiritually dead. If you are not born spiritually neutral or alive, you are born spiritually dead.

If the soul is born separated from God, it is dead spiritually. If it is dead spiritually it cannot react to any spiritual stimuli unless God first grants to it the power and ability to do so. Tell us that God saves some and leaves the rest to remain the sinners as they are. That is a very common answer, but how does that justify God for the ones that are left? If He creates them as sinners, and blames and will punish them for being just as the necessitated state they were birthed into necessitates, justice demands that they some opportunity be granted to them to escape their fate through no fault of their own. Grace is only seen as grace IF every man that is morally blamed at one time had the opportunity to be something other than the sinner they became, but willingly chose to sin. Then when God offers them the hope of salvation, being willing rebels, does grace take on meaning. Even when men deserved no other fate than hell, God offered them mercy and grace. Simply put, original sin changes the grace of God via the offer of salvation to mere justice. Such a system condemns me to hell for nothing more than being created human and condemns them for acting in the specific way necessitated by their nature. Such a system of necessity paints a horrible blight on the Character of a Holy and Just God.

Marcia: You seem to think God cannot draw spiritually separated people to Himself; well, this happens all the time.

HP: I have never stated anything that would suggest such folly. What I do suggest is that if men lack the abilities to do something other than what they do under the very same set of circumstances,(such as original sin clear implies) God must first enable them to respond. If He enables some to respond, but leaves the others to their necessitated fate, you have just established the faulty Calvinistic doctrine of limited atonement and irresistible grace. If that is what you believe, just say so. It will make it simpler to address your points.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia; I have said numerous times that an infant or child unable to believe can still be saved by God's grace....

HP: Grace without repentance will never save anyone. Apart from repentance no sinner can be saved according to Scripture. “Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.


Quote:
HP: Whatever you desire to call that relationship, Jesus said “of such is the kingdom of heaven.”

Maria: Yes, because their trust is the kind of trust we should have. And I have never said that young children or infants don't go to heaven. But they are still born spiritually dead.....

HP: All that need redemption must exhibit repentance. How can an infant repent and what could it repent for if it could? How does one repent without remorse, and how can one have remorse without abilities to have remorse? Can one repent for being born into a necessitated state? What a mockery of true repentance that employs. As if one could turn from, make a change in, or change ones attitude concerning, the way they are birthed into this world. You might read your own definition of repentance again as see if in fact an infant is a candidate for true repentance.

Marica: I don't think Judas benefited from his relationship with Jesus ....

HP: But he could have if he would have. You have no Scriptural basis to say at one time he did not entertain a hope of eternal life. Scripture never states one time that he was not saved in the beginning.

In my system of theology it does not matter one way or another. He was lost in the end. In your system, you have to force and insist on him never being saved even when Scripture is silent on his condition until direct prior to his betrayal. You have a presupposition that must be upheld at all cost. (OSAS) Even if Scripture is unclear, you of necessity must force that issue when intellectual honesty demands we remain neutral concerning it. You have no ability to discern the heart of Judas when Jesus made him a partaker of the ministry, and neither do I.

 

[Marcia]

If the soul is born separated from God, it is dead spiritually. If it is dead spiritually it cannot react to any spiritual stimuli unless God first grants to it the power and ability to do so.

Who says that a spiritually dead person can't react to spiritual stimuli?

The issue here is whether or not we are born spiritually dead. You seem to say we are not, which means were are born saved.

There is no evidence that Judas was saved; all evidence is that he was not.

That's it for me, HP. I'm getting off the merry-go-round. I've been on long enough. Our dialogues get nowhere.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: Who says that a spiritually dead person can't react to spiritual stimuli?

HP: I have heard all my adult life from Baptist pulpits that “dead men have no will and make no choices.” I believe you would say that a spiritually dead individual can do nothing other than sin and that continually. If one cannot do ANYTHING other than sin it of necessity could not react in a positive way towards any spiritual stimuli to do righteous, for if it could it would not be dead in any sense of impossibility to do right. To respond to positive stimuli would be to be alive to it and as such, not dead in any sense of impossibility.

As a side note, my position would be that when Scriptures state one is ‘dead to sin,’ it does NOT mean that they cannot sin (least I fall into the same entrapment of others) but rather to be dead is be 'totally unwilling' to do right, and not necessarily unable to do right. We are to become dead indeed to sin. That does not mean we are to become unable to sin, but rather that we should be totally unwilling to sin.

Sin is decided by the will of man and by its nature cannot be something necessitated by ones ‘nature’ or anything else for that matter. Sin is not a disease, it is the results of willful disobedience against a know commandment of God.

Marcia: The issue here is whether or not we are born spiritually dead. You seem to say we are not, which means were are born saved.

HP: That is simply a false deduction. NO MAN IS OR COULD BE BORN SAVED. There are clear stated conditions for salvation,. Conditions that simply cannot be fulfilled until one reaches the age of accountability and has the opportunity to hear the gospel. Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Marcia: There is no evidence that Judas was saved; all evidence is that he was not.

HP: Sinners are not granted the powers of the kingdom that were granted to Judas. Judas was called a disciple and as such was partook of the ministry and the power and authority granted to the others. That is certainly reasonable proof to me, but again I am not bound to the dogma of OSAS.

Marcia: That's it for me, HP. I'm getting off the merry-go-round. I've been on long enough. Our dialogues get nowhere.

HP: Marcia, we have just began to scratch the surface, but do as you wish. I have enjoyed your spirit and the kind manner in which you handled the debate. For what it is worth, I believe you would make an excellent moderator. :thumbsup::applause:

 

[BobRyan]

Is there a "soul is dead" statement in all of scripture about a living person?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Evidently not BR.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

If in fact the Holy Spirit has completely withdrawn Himself from and individual, that would be as close to a dead soul as Scripture would indicate. That is certainly not a state anyone is born into or that is necessitated by ones 'nature.'

 

[JSM17]

The word says that God is the author of our souls. If every baby born has a soul then God gives that soul to them. I doubt that He gives them a dead soul.
Scripture only speaks of two types of people, children of God and children of Satan, either children are born children of God or children of Satan.

Would we dare say that God creates children of the Devil?

If children are born lost then they cannot go to heaven. Then by implication these children are born sinful and cannot enter into heaven. Scripture does not speak of creating depraved and sinful children.

Does God curse children with sin because of their parents sins? Ez. 18

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Excellent post JSM17.:thumbsup: