WHO told you that you were naked?

[Don]

Yep, I understand both of you 100%.

Star, yes, I "have it" for that group in Denver. I "have it" for anyone who twists the gospel to preach their own beliefs.

I remind you that when Paul wrote about preaching in truth or falsely, he was talking about people who were bad-mouthing him, not people who actually had a disagreement about who Christ was.

Star, you may not be able to find a starting point with Ken every now and then; you don't need one. The tedious and time-consuming effort is to examine each and every verse that he uses, and determine if he is using it in the manner in which it is presented in scripture. I've shown on more than one occasion that he tends to use some verses completely out of context. You may disagree with me on that, but you've never actually been able to show that I'm wrong. Whether you disagree with me or not, if I'm not wrong...well, please think on that for a while.

I invite you to read Galatians 1, and simply ponder it for a while.

 

[AITB]

Kim,

If you can see grace and love in Ken/his writing I can understand why that draws you.

Maybe you find more than you've found in people who interpret the Bible in more traditional ways.

I'm all for grace and love. But my impression with Ken is, he takes so much liberty with the texts that what he teaches really doesn't have much connection with the Bible. I think it would be more honest of him to say "I'm starting my religion based on grace and love and some ideas I got from the Bible". It's the implication that he has the 'real meaning of the Bible' that bothers me. I'd rather he came out with it and said "this is NOT what the Bible teaches - it's my own beliefs - that are only remotely related to the Bible, even though it is through Bible study that I got to my present beliefs...in a sense"

It's also through Bible study that many ex-Christians got to be ex-Christians. At least they are honest about how far they are away from Biblical teachings. What bothers me about Ken is that he claims to be teaching 'the Bible'. I suppose he believes he is; I suppose he's sincere. I have nothing personal against him; I just wish he'd call his teachings what they really are - something new and something out of his own imagination, albeit with contributions from Biblical concepts - instead of implying they are the true meaning of the Bible.

love
Helen

 

[Me2]

Hello,
Ive Got A Question That Might Be Useful in This Discussion.

What Is A Similtude ? If That is What You Would Like To Address It As..

I See A Parallel Vision Running Alongside Reality... (As We Comprehend It)

Like Most Of The Prophets of the old Testament.. A Dream interpreted.

Pictures or Moments Captured in Time To Be Used As a Secondary resemblance.

Not effecting Reality but yet giving it a Secondary Meaning..in this case the future..

(Some Things That I Dont Understand is The Usage of The English language as the descripters of these pictures. Like the usage of the KJV Bible and its utilization of this particular study or interpretation. Or Could we use Aramaic,Hebrew, and greek word language ?)

But What I Do Notice is that All Thats discussed Happened in the Past Which interpretations do no take away from what happened but could only enhance its understanding.

I See When We Speak of Parables and their Spiritual underlying messages that these similtudes would confuse most people.

But I Only See These visons (or similtudes) as a stand alone message.

We See Revelation of Jesus Christ. Its A Vision...Not To Be Interpreted literally.
That is Where I See The Value..of this type of method of interpretation....

God Trained Humans To Recognize "Pairs". we draw similarity in our methods of communication
I See Nothing Wrong With This other than ITS ACCURACY. not in its existence or non existence.
It Exists....Deal With It

By The By...This Subject is called Typology..or Typological Prophecies

Look At The Similtudes Message.. Their Absolute. In a state of the vision presented.
We Hear Of The Word.. Presented in "Another" tongue at various points.
where are the interpreters?

Like Ive Said Before..I Have Not Seen This Amount Of Work on this subject presented at one instance. Clearly This Body Of Work Has to Be Investigated. What Intrigues me More Is That Kens Presentation of His Work Has Christian Love Intermingled with It. How Can This Be? If Not God Being In The Presentation.. Dont We Need His Help To Interpret HIS WORD To Us?

So If Anyone Has An Opinion on Just What They Think Of This... TYPE OF STUDY...Speak Up.?
Maybe It Could Help Introduce This Subject More Clearly Instead Of Immediatley Dismissing This As Heresy or Another Gospel or A Message From Satan Himself..

If Not...Please Excuse My Ramblings....

Me2

[ July 10, 2002, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

[Star]

Don in reference to the above qoute concerning deceitful workers transforming themselves into appostles for Christ. The attributes associated with it are the occassions for which they glory. In 2Corinth 11:18 glorying after the flesh, they were suffering these kinds of fools. He spoke earlier on being decieved as Eve was (and you know what I think in regards to this situation). They were suffering a man bringing them into bondage (Ken doesn't do this). Suffering if a man devours them (Ken doesn't do this either) and suffering if a man exalts himself and smites you on the face. I can't see this in Ken though I believe the verse was to be implied against him (I'm not too sure). I don't understand your position considering that in reality he speaks of grace, christ crucified, he neither "troubles me" which is an indication of "somethings wrong here", so also is ones "lost joy" I have neither in that respect. I do get that with "legalists and those who are always rendering judgement on others" thats when my joy departs and my troubled spirit awakes, I cannot deny the truth of that in me when encountered experiencially. I have "learned" how not to react so harshly being very much aware of my own weaknesses when I too was passing out of the death of that existence into the life and freedom in Christ.

You know you don't need "me" to agree with you in order to have your own convictions about something. I don't want to glory in one man over another or quarrel about disputable things, just eating the chicken (being grateful) and quitely spitting out the bones (hopefully unoticibly). Just letting him who speaks speak and weighing carefully what is said. If we are to take, "Women being silent seriously" I chose that way out (The one provided for me) in times like this.

I'd like to say one more thing, when I read scripture its to see Jesus Christ and feed myself with His words. These are enough for "me personally" I try to back away from reading them to point the finger at another and use them to justify my qualms with someone. One can get consumed by looking at another when we are not seeing correctly concerning our own hearts and motives and every seemingly judgemental verse and law seems to apply to those we have it out for when this takes root. Something tells me that I'm wrong inside when I take upon myself the quest of pursuing another individual no matter how righteous the cause seems to be. But I truly understand that your convicted about this but please understand Don that I don't share those same convictions and I'll honor yours and I hope you'll honor mine because in truth God did pour out His Spirit on us all and our convictions will differ one from another on certain things.

And thank you for your kind posting and cordial spirit in posting because its a sincere pleasure speaking with you in that manner it really has

In Him Kim

 

[Star]

AITB,

I understand, but please realize as I have said this before I don't follow Ken. What can I follow in His teaching? He agrees with grace, Christ as Lord and brings some great verses on the table. I nod alot in agreement with others to keep from disputing, I simply "consider" these things. I'll nod with preterists, pretribs, post tribs because I don't believe Christ is divided and those who are not against us are for us. Which ever supposed side I take I'll be excluded or condemned by another in some way thats a fact. If I worship in homes I'm being disobedient because I'm not a part of the defined by men "coorporate body". If I'm a baptist I'm called a "fundy", if I'm a catholic the entire backdrop of their history is blown in my face to account for it. If I'm pentacostal I'm nailed for the gifts, interogated and scrutinized. I could give hundreds of examples and the focus gets off of Jesus Christ and back onto doctrines of men and the flesh. I'd much rather embrace all these people confessing His name and leave being taught to God Himself and follow the way of love. That simplifies it for me.

No one here has perfect doctrine, I disagree on more points then I agree with on an everyday basis, I just chose my battles and I really try to stay away from them altogether when I can. I do't like the way I feel when I'm engaged in them and taking note to my Spirit in such cases is very important to me though I understand others might not agree with me and want to make their convictions my own, I'm personally responsible for hearing that inner voice for myself and walking by the Spirit in me as best I can.

In Him Kim

 

[Star]

I think Me2 raises an excellent point!

If what is being spoken of is considered evil lets see if we are seeing this correctly by disection. Look at what it is, how it came together, exactly what is being said and what is not being said. I think thats fair. Lets look at verses that Ken uses to show the building of His similitude what he desires to show and why he thinks God has built this patern (Ken seems to believe) for doing things. I'd personally like to see this and even understand it so that I can decide intelligibly, but either way I'd still love him

In Him Kim

 

[GH]

Dear Me2,

You wrote:

But What I Do Notice is that All Thats discussed Happened in the Past Which interpretations do no take away from what happened but could only enhance its understanding.

Bingo! This is what opened me up to at least considering Ken’s interpretations. As I understand it, and Ken can jump in here if he’d like, is that all judgments, curses, prophecies (except the one for all Israel will be saved and come to know Messiah), etc. were placed on Jesus at the cross. Once and for always.

But the judgments of God were the hook. I was always frightened by God’s judgments before the Lord opened my heart and mind to the glorious good news of Jesus Christ and flooded my being with His most gracious Love…..afterwards, when I began to learn of Him and He placed a yearning for the things of God in me, the verses that spoke of God’s wrath and such purely mystified me. It just didn’t jibe with what the Spirit was teaching me about love, joy, peace, goodness, kindness, gentleness, long suffering and self-control. The nature of God, the God I know anyway, had been totally misrepresented down through 2 millennia I had come to see, in my humble opinion.

All things have been taken care of on the Cross of Christ, I believe this and always have so I didn’t have any problem with Ken’s thinking on this – once I got past the other stuff. God taking the punishment for me, for us – this was expanded to the nth degree for me when I saw and believed that the judgments were for Jesus. His total grace from beginning to end……….not counting men’s sins against them was true for all time for all people. This is a paradigm shift in that the premise has changed. It isn’t what we’ve been taught being we have to save ourselves through faith in Christ. Rather we have already been saved through the faith of Jesus by God’s grace and mercy.

I hope this is clear for I am not good at communicating these things via the written word. I have a problem putting down the Broad picture while I think I’m better at pinpointing certain specific areas. Debate isn’t good for me – paradigm shift again – as I believe that all things are from Him and to Him and for Him and by Him and I can do nothing without Him. So I ask you to be gentle with me, dear readers, when you read my posts, if you can.

In His All sufficiency, Diane

PS: I will respond to Star, Don and AITB eventually – this really is hard for me and it takes a lot of time to put my thoughts down.

"The hardness of God is kinder that the softness of men, and His compulsion is our liberation." C.S. Lewis

 

[ken1burton]

This High speed thread has hit eight pages and some of us knows what that means.

Don. I think your wording is cute:

I've shown before that Ken has used verses out of context, changing their meaning to support a viewpoint.

To Whom have you SHOWN? and is that shown an Absolute truth? If others agree that you have SHOWN, does that make it truth.

We can get hundreds of Millions of Buddhists to AGREEE. Does that make one error TRUTH? Or one Truth error?

You have shown to SELF. And you have shown yourself what You believe is True. Prove it Scripturally. And use the Prophecies which Jesus had to fulfill to the Jot and Tittle. People sealed from seeing (The Disciples and Paul) would be expected to see Error.

The Jewish Nation was sealed from seeing the vision in Isaiah 29:10/12. And that is seeing Jesus is the Christ. Their error about believeing in Jesus is SCRIPTURAL. I expect them to speak error for God has hidden this from them. I also expect the Disciples and paul to be speaking error because of what they did not see because of the Seals.

(DANIEL 9:24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (KJV)

THIS IS A PROPHECY, It has a SEAL, it had to be fulfilled at Calvary as Luke 18:31 shows. This shows the Disciples spoke a LOT of ERROR. it shows Paul spoke a LOT of ERROR, it shows the Churches are speaking a LOT of ERROR.

It is a JOT, it is a TITTLE, it is Fulfilled. Sin ended like it or not as accountable unto man. All mankind received the Righteousness of Christ from Job 33:26. Another of those little JOTS.

Hell ended in Zechariah 9:11 as they all left with Jesus, Another little JOT. The Dead rose with Christ in Isaiah 26:19, Another JOT.

Don, Walk on in darkness if you chose, But God, and I and YOU all know the reason you do not see is your CHOICE not to see. Walk in acceptance of others if you will, But you will never walk honestly with God when that is your objective, to please others.

You would be a Buddhist in Asia, a Hindu in India, and a Moslem in Saudi Arabia. Your heart shows.

ken1burton

 

[Don]

If what is being spoken of is considered evil lets see if we are seeing this correctly by disection. Look at what it is, how it came together, exactly what is being said and what is not being said. I think thats fair. Lets look at verses that Ken uses to show the building of His similitude what he desires to show and why he thinks God has built this patern (Ken seems to believe) for doing things. I'd personally like to see this and even understand it so that I can decide intelligibly, but either way I'd still love him.

My first reaction: ARGH! That's EXACTLY what I've been doing!

My second reaction: I'm not here to change Star's mind, GH's mind, or Ken's mind. I can't change anyone's mind, any more than I can change their heart. Only God can. I can only present the things that God has laid on my heart to be truth, and allow others to see them and come to a conclusion themselves.

It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing.

-------------------------------------------------

To Whom have you SHOWN? and is that shown an Absolute truth? If others agree that you have SHOWN, does that make it truth.

I have shown everyone who reads these threads. Your misuse of John 14:3, for instance.

Truth is what cannot be refuted, not what is agreed upon.

When I have stated that your use of a verse to substantiate your viewpoint is in error, have you ever been able to refute those statements?

No.

You've simply stuck to your guns, and continued to promulgate your viewpoint.

Truth is not what is agreed upon by the masses. Truth is also not what we shove down people's throats until they swallow it.

We are to search the scriptures, and test the spirits. I have searched the scriptures you have provided that supposedly back up your viewpoint, and on more than one occasion, shown that you have used some of those verses out of context.

If the verse has to be taken out of context in order to substantiate a viewpoint, then the substantiation is invalid.

Both Star and GH helped me prove this when I gave my example of the justification for hating sinners in one of these threads. Only by taking some verses out of context are those people able to justify "godly hatred."

Only by taking some verses out of context are you able to substantiate your similitude teaching.

What's more, just like those people in Denver, when shown that some verses are being used out of context, you neither prove me incorrect nor acknowledge in any way the error. You simply continue using them.

Therefore, I cannot agree with your teaching, and have endeavored to show the errors with it.

What you're evidencing now, Ken, is that you dislike the fact that I disagree with you. I think you should follow Star's lead: She at least is taking the tact that we should agree to disagree....

-------------------------------------------------

Only the reader of these threads can judge and make up their minds for themselves. I take my leave.

[ July 10, 2002, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

[Star]

Don,

In reference to my post you copy pasted, you stated that thats exactly what you've been doing, but I didn't see you as doing just that. I found it hard to see what you were communicating through the way you have chosen to do so.

Now please do not take me wrong, because I personally don't want to judge, I really don't, if theres one thing you should know by now about me I really don't enjoy it and I find it hard to say what I feel in accordance to what I've seen especially concerning someone else. We've had our differences and will continue to do so most likely and I'm ok with that. I'm not very uncomfortable with saying anything at all here, but lets use your example of "loving someone" by showing them their fault (as you have brought up) I would much rather see the fault and overlook it hoping that one could realize in themselves what others might perceive as true (in a negative sense) in an individual. Most often then not my approach could be off and I could be hitting some walls in my walk in some way. I come in among a group of people who exibit some of the strengths I need, without a word or a lecture or anyone pointing it out to me I find leading by way of example the only way to go. Somehow the wonderful qualities I desire in myself are best imparted by the shining examples I find myself surrounded by. Its actually contagious (at least to me it is). Knowing this myself I don't like to open my mouth, but I occasional do and my foot follows as I can almost always predict when a good foot chewing moment is coming lol!

We are to know people by their fruits, to know that they who confess Christ as Lord are born of God because no one can say that except by the Spirit. Ken has both fruit (as I have known him) and confesses Christ as Lord. He speaks of grace, the Cross of Christ concerning which we hear Paul say that He determined to know nothing save Christ and Him crucified. Again Ken has made this obvious. He has pursued no one with a bone to pick, He has shared (in his own way) "The Cross Jesus Christ" which was in fact hidden in Gods own word to His Glory and it is ours to search out as is our Noble right. He causes no harm, and is not contentious.

On the other hand, you may indeed be correct in using a verse but you also need that affirmation and when you do not get it you keep confronting in order for the response, "your right, I'm wrong" . Were all human, we make mistakes, I grant that to everyone, but I do wonder why it appears that you delight in nailing someone to a wall (seemingly so). The Spirit of that quest makes me think of Paul's preconversion. Paul knew scripture like no one else, he was "the best of the best" point by point he'd probrobly put our theologians to shame. Did His "doctrine" keep him from persecuting the lord? The book he knew testified of the very Lord He hoped in, perceiving that such actions taken were validated by the word of God because thats how he perceived them. Now I'm NOT saying that you are not converted or that your persecuting Ken in the "bad guy good guy" scenario. Neither elvated or devaluing either of you, in my heart I see you as equal in Christ, being two very different brothers in the Lord but same Spirit. But I'm trying to share a perspective with you that Ken is not being hurtful and He's for Christ as are you Don. I'll make leeway for the both of you for scriptural mistakes and not toss either of you away because of them (hoping the same from you) were all learning. I'd much rather see a loving heart then alot of knowledge anyday, because when your sick, naked, hungry and thirsty it takes the heart to do what the head cannot amen? Paul didn't claim to have perfect knowledge why do we expect it from one another? But it is wonderful to get a good word.

The only Truth that can't be refuted is Christ among us right?

I believe that I try to understand the heart of God as I would hope everyone would desire to do the same. You said me and Di refuted correctly concerning the verses taken out of context in the area of "hate" and I believe in the same accord we dicerned rightly weighing these things out according to the heart. In the same way I (concerning Ken) choose to believe the best in a person. He's showing "similitudes" God does speak showing them (as is scripture). I haven't seen them all but I certainly enjoy seeing the salvation of the Lord brought to light in "pictures" as well as in the heart of an individual. Neither is perfect when our human hands get involved in trying to understand it but we try to because we have an inborn desire to. I believe (If I'm stating this right) Ken shows more of the non personal views from scripture. Basically Christ said they testified of Him and Ken's (let me say) "trying" to show Him but in only a "picture" type way, it doesn't negate or take away from our personal ongoing communion with Christ from what I can see, hasn't yet, at least not for me. I can love similitudes and heart knowledge and I accept the dimly lit areas although I desire much more.

Hear what I'm saying? What I'm not?



In Him Kim

P.S you both have a love for scripture this is obvious, and you both have a zeal but these are comprehended and asserted differently and uniquely though you both. I think if you stood back from the situation you could really see in your heart you both love Him. Don is doing it because he believes Ken's wrong in how he shows scriptures and Kens doing it trying to show The Cross of Christ, see what I mean?

 

[ken1burton]

Deep convictions clash, Indifference seldom argues. Jesus never agreed to disagree. Jesus poured out what was given Him by God. Like the "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

They might not agree with Jesus, but He told it as He saw it. Some would receive it. for the word of God does not return void.

Jesus always tried to get the message across, no matter how many times He had to repeat it. That is the Purpose of a Parable, to cause much more thinking on it then just saying it outright, How does God mean that? is there a different way of taking it? Etc.

When we start to follow Christ, this is for Eternity, for the Duration. There is no end of learning, and sharing for the World is without end. Always someone new to share with. Always someone just getting to heaven that NOW wants to know God a lot better.

ken1burton

 

[Star]

Deep convictions clash, Indifference seldom argues

I personally quoted you on that once to justify myself in the face of an argument, I will admit that. I see the truth of this and what you mean by this. I'm still arguing but through an appeal to get to the "heart" of the matter. Ken If your quoting this to me by implication here then why are you indifferent in explaining the "If" that was questioned?

My "conviction" is that both of you love the Lord in your own ways and I know I personally don't love as perfectly or see as clearly as I would like to, I'm still a work in progress.

So there was a "Clash of the Titans". I'm trying to see the impartial underlying picture between you two as I see it and bring a bit of perspective into it (as I see it).

That might be a futile effort because more often then not lines are drawn in the sand and sides are taken.

Your the one who taught me not to see someone as my enemy, not through telling me that either, but because you never really saw anyone as an enemy. That example blessed me because I admired in a sense the abilty to see the good in everyone and it never hindered your abilty to remain kind and cordial in sharing what you saw without being infected with judgement spewing from your posts.
That speaks volumes to me it really does. I can argue with the best of them and I can get caught up in it, not blaming anyone here for that. But since I am involved in this thread I just felt led to say something hopefully having the best intentions here.

So maybe your right, maybe I'm being indifferent, I'm not too sure, I don't feel that I am. But hey my battle could be around the corner so who am I to say anything? It all comes around to we all do it. So any lectures will bite me in the butt unless I learn to do it perfectly myself (by way of example) so why say it if I haven't learned the secret of performing it? So I'm back to I really should hold my tongue and the other one I've grown to like, "That I'm a woman" Cop out? Maybe, but I can get away with it.

I'm openly ashamed of that one.

In Him Kim

 

[GH]

Hi All,

I’ve been thinking about what we’ve been discussing these last 15 or 20 posts, and I really couldn’t add too much to what Kim said.

Just a couple of thoughts though:

My posts are salted with a lot of scripture. I usually don’t quote chapter and verse. After all, there were no chapters and verses when the bible was being written – that happened, I guess, for easy reference in study – which makes a lot of sense in a way, but imo stunts fellowship somewhat for those who are attempting a heart relationship with another believer, another lover of God.

I understand the concern for clarity and right judgment of the scripture but I believe at some point God brings us to the place where trusting Him and the Spirit in which we are sealed takes precedence over dry recitation of words in a book.

There has been much abuse in “Christianity” which is no Christianity in my mind as once the spirit of love is broken all bets are off. In my opinion, this is sound doctrine: love. For "Love thinketh no evil." That takes care of the problem of good and evil for me. Our spirit cries out to be free even if our head is telling us something else. My prayer for myself and all the Body is: may we hear the Spirit of Freedom’s voice calling us to love, joy, peace, goodness, kindness, gentleness, long suffering and self-control – regardless where other people’s heads and hearts are at. "For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the Eternal as the ocean-bed is full of water." Isa. 11:9 and "We are all at different stages on the journey,--a journey that has its beginning and end in God." George MacDonald

So I can relax a little and receive the joy of the Lord as His Spirit moves upon His people.

In the Lord’s joyful heart,

Diane

Earth's crammed with Heaven, and every bush afire with God; and only he who sees takes off his shoes. Eliz. B. Browning

 

[Star]

I just wanted those on this thread to know Ken has informed me via e-mail that he unable access the threads in order to respond, He doesn't know if it is an intentional banning or a glich. I thought it only fair to bring that to everyones attention.

Instead of running in circles trying to fix a glich (which might not be one at all). Out of kindness can a moderator clarify this for us so we might not try in vain?

Thanks for any help or clarification if its offered.

In Him Kim

 

[Star]

Diane,

I always loved your perspective in the Lord, its always so REFRESHING!!!!

Amen sis!

In Him Kimbo

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Originally posted by Star:

Instead of running in circles trying to fix a glich (which might not be one at all). Out of kindness can a moderator clarify this for us so we might not try in vain?

Ken was e-mailed at 9:30 this morning.

 

[Star]

Hey Di, I won't be here on the boards for a few days, my father is coming in to stay with me.I most likely won't be posting until he leaves on Sunday.I haven't dropped off the face of the earth if I'm not here ok? lol

Also my sister is having a breakdown in Georgia she moved there 2 months ago and misses us immensely and she just informed us she's coming back to Pa next week and moving in with us until after Christmas.I'm atually estatic over it all because I missed her terribly as well.

I'll love and miss ya

In Him Kim

 

[Star]

Ken was e-mailed at 9:30 this morning.

I would like to e-mail you privately to vent, I know it will change nothing but you know how it goes.... You push a button when somethings bothering you and somehow it dissapears...

In Him Kim

 

[Clint Kritzer]

You are, of course, free to e-mail me, Kim.

 

[Star]

Diane,

I think you were right on the money with you e-mail yesterday again my mind is blown by that which followed. I always think its your imagination lol I know better now

Thank you for your faithful words

In Him Kim