Who were Jezebel and Baal ?

[robycop3]

A member was banned for calling me & other Baptists "Jezebel". now, Bible-readers know she was the wife of Ahab, Israel's most-evil king ever, but here's a little more skinny about her.

She was the daughter of Ithobaal 1, king of Tyre, & given in marriage to Ahab to cement the friendship between Tyre & Israel. Her name literally means "Where is the prince or lord?" & also "consort of Baal". We know she was thoroughly evil, plotting the murder of Naboth so Ahab could have his land, among other things, such as promoting the worship of Baal by Israel. Today, her name is used as a term for "a very evil woman" & is considered in English to be one of the worst bad names a woman can be called, even worse than "harlot" & like terms. I suspect that's why that member was banned. (I am male, of course !) Also, Athaliah, an equally-evil woman, was the daughter of Jezebel & Ahab.

This begs the question, "Who is Baal?" Baal, also called "Bel, Bal, & Phoenician B'l, was any one of several gods worshipped by the Sumerians, Phoenicians, Akkadians, ("Sidonian" in Scripture was a term for Phoenicians in general.) Later, some Assyrians, Chaldeans, & Egyptians called one of their gods "Bel". Baal is generally considered to be a chief god in that old pantheon worshipped by those people. So Baal is not the name of any one specific false god.

"Baal" also meant "owner, boss, or lord" in general when applied to people. And Baal & Ba'l mean "husband" in modern Hebrew & modern Arabic respectively.

 

[rockytopva]

I believe Jezebel existed in Thyatirian times, and John Bunyan (who was sometimes called AnaBaptist) suffered because of her....

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Oriental Orthodox - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

And in John Bunyan's Pilgrims Progres he names two Jezebels!

(167) In this light, therefore, he (Christian) came to the end of the valley. Now I saw in my dream, that at the end of this valley lay blood, bones, ashes, and mangled bodies of men, even of pilgrims that had gone this way formerly; and while I was musing what should be the reason, I espied a little before me a cave, where two giants, POPE and PAGAN, dwelt in old time; by whose power and tyranny the men whose bones, blood, and ashes, lay there, were cruelly put to death. But by this place Christian went without much danger, whereat I somewhat wondered; but I have learnt since, that PAGAN has been dead many a day; and as for the other, though he be yet alive, he is, by reason of age, and also of the many shrewd brushes that he met with in his younger days, grown so crazy and stiff in his joints, that he can now do little more than sit in his cave's mouth, grinning at pilgrims as they go by, and biting his nails because he cannot come at them.

(168) So I saw that Christian went on his way; yet, at the sight of the Old Man that sat in the mouth of the cave, he could not tell what to think, especially because he spake to him, though he could not go after him, saying, "You will never mend till more of you be burned." But he held his peace, and set a good face on it, and so went by and catched no hurt. Then sang Christian:

O world of wonders! (I can say no less),
That I should be preserved in that distress
That I have met with here! O blessed be
That hand that from it hath deliver'd me!
Dangers in darkness, devils, hell, and sin
Did compass me, while I this vale was in:
Yea, snares, and pits, and traps, and nets, did lie
My path about, that worthless, silly I
Might have been catch'd, entangled, and cast down;
But since I live, let JESUS wear the crown.

 

[Scarlett O.]

In my Bible study last fall, we were in I Kings.

Ahab, the Bible teaches, thought that to commit sin was "trivial". And that he was the most evil king of his day and did more to anger God than any king before him.

And, it says that part of that great sin, was to marry Jezebel.

He was a king of Israel and basically married a woman who worshipped the devil. He worshipped Baal, himself, and built a Temple and an altar for Baal in Samaria - the kingdom of the north.

Jezebel is often touted as one of the "bad girls" of the Bible. I stressed to my Bible study group that this was not the case.

She wasn't just a bad girl. She was demonic and fought against God and his prophets. What BUSINESS did Ahab have in bringing this woman from a foreign land and religion to be his queen over Israel? It's like if a pastor married a witch and brought her into his home and church.

When one calls a woman a Jezebel - they usually mean that woman is not submissive or she is a whore. Usually neither is the case, but it's how some, and when I say some I mean hard core fundamentalists, use the name to bash women that don't tow the party line. "She has the spirit of Jezebel!!"

The real Jezebel was demonic. Calling someone - man or woman - by that name is serious business. You are implying that they are of the devil.

 

[Alofa Atu]

A member was banned for calling me & other Baptists "Jezebel". ....

...was that following Jesus' example?

Jesus called the unrepentant Pharisees "a generation of vipers" and "serpents" (Mat. 12:34, 23:33), and before him, so did John the Baptist (Mat. 3:7; Luke 3:7).

I do not see where someone was 'banned' by Jesus for being called a 'name' (Mat 12:32), but said, it would be forgiven, and that which would not be forgiven would be the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (Mat. 12:31).

Jesus was even called Beelzebub (Mat. 10:25), and I do no see where Jesus 'banned' anyone from still having the opportunity to come to Him.

So, back to my first question.

 

[Walter]

...was that following Jesus' example?

Jesus called the unrepentant Pharisees "a generation of vipers" and "serpents" (Mat. 12:34, 23:33), and before him, so did John the Baptist (Mat. 3:7; Luke 3:7).

I do not see where someone was 'banned' by Jesus for being called a 'name' (Mat 12:32), but said, it would be forgiven, and that which would not be forgiven would be the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (Mat. 12:31).

Jesus was even called Beelzebub (Mat. 10:25), and I do no see where Jesus 'banned' anyone from still having the opportunity to come to Him.

So, back to my first question.

Well, we are in agreement here. I have been called a HERETIC, BLASPHEMOUS, APOSTATE, and other vile names and no one was banned. What's up?

 

[Deacon]

One of my first memories was getting a black cat. We named her Jezebel.
She lived well into my college years.

She hated cars and thunderstorms. One stormy day my mother and brother decided it was time to put her down.
As they drove, lightning flashed, that Jezebel bit my brother to the bone and died under my mother’s legs as they drove into the vet’s lot.

Guess it was her time.

Rob

 

[robycop3]

I believe Jezebel existed in Thyatirian times, and John Bunyan (who was sometimes called AnaBaptist) suffered because of her....

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Oriental Orthodox - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

And in John Bunyan's Pilgrims Progres he names two Jezebels!

(167) In this light, therefore, he (Christian) came to the end of the valley. Now I saw in my dream, that at the end of this valley lay blood, bones, ashes, and mangled bodies of men, even of pilgrims that had gone this way formerly; and while I was musing what should be the reason, I espied a little before me a cave, where two giants, POPE and PAGAN, dwelt in old time; by whose power and tyranny the men whose bones, blood, and ashes, lay there, were cruelly put to death. But by this place Christian went without much danger, whereat I somewhat wondered; but I have learnt since, that PAGAN has been dead many a day; and as for the other, though he be yet alive, he is, by reason of age, and also of the many shrewd brushes that he met with in his younger days, grown so crazy and stiff in his joints, that he can now do little more than sit in his cave's mouth, grinning at pilgrims as they go by, and biting his nails because he cannot come at them.

(168) So I saw that Christian went on his way; yet, at the sight of the Old Man that sat in the mouth of the cave, he could not tell what to think, especially because he spake to him, though he could not go after him, saying, "You will never mend till more of you be burned." But he held his peace, and set a good face on it, and so went by and catched no hurt. Then sang Christian:

O world of wonders! (I can say no less),
That I should be preserved in that distress
That I have met with here! O blessed be
That hand that from it hath deliver'd me!
Dangers in darkness, devils, hell, and sin
Did compass me, while I this vale was in:
Yea, snares, and pits, and traps, and nets, did lie
My path about, that worthless, silly I
Might have been catch'd, entangled, and cast down;
But since I live, let JESUS wear the crown.

The "seven church ages" bunk is completely false !

This garbage was invented by John Darby in England & preached in the US by such charlatans as William M. Branham, Clarence Larkin, Dr. Peter Ruckman & Arnold Murray. History proves it false. For example, the time that false doctrine defines as the "Philadelphia" period saw the rise of most of the worst cults to pollute the English-speaking world-LDS, SDA, & Jehovah Witnesses among others.

Please drop that nonsense at once !

 

[rockytopva]

The "seven church ages" bunk is completely false !

This garbage was invented by John Darby in England & preached in the US by such charlatans as William M. Branham, Clarence Larkin, Dr. Peter Ruckman & Arnold Murray. History proves it false. For example, the time that false doctrine defines as the "Philadelphia" period saw the rise of most of the worst cults to pollute the English-speaking world-LDS, SDA, & Jehovah Witnesses among others.

Please drop that nonsense at once !

You don't think these are Laodicean times?

 

[Alofa Atu]

The "seven church ages" bunk is completely false !

This garbage was invented by John Darby in England

You do seem to not have a grasp on the historical, but live in your own little world:

Again, John Gill (a Baptist), in 1774 (way before Darby):

"... the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches;
that is, the seven stars which John saw in Christ's right hand, represent the angels, or pastors of the seven churches of Asia, and in them all the pastors and ministers of the churches in all the periods of time until Christ's second coming. ..."

"... and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches;
represent the seven churches, of Asia, and in them all the churches of Christ, in successive ages, to the end of time; the reasons why these are signified by "candlesticks", (See Gill on Revelation 1:12); and that they are prophetic of the churches of Christ in the several periods of time, until he comes again, will appear from the following considerations: ..." - Revelation 1:20 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

Also:

"... it will seem that these seven Churches, besides their literal respect, were intended (and it may be chiefly) to be as patterns and types of the several ages of the Catholic Church from the beginning thereof unto the end of the world; that so these seven Churches should prophetically sample unto us a sevenfold temper and constitution of the whole Church according to the several ages thereof, answering the pattern of the Churches named here;” compare p. 905. Vitringa (Anacrisis Apocalypsios, p. 32) ...." - Epistles to the Seven Churches in Asia. - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Also:

"... A number of expositors down through history have held that the seven churches represent seven sequential stages of church history.1

1 “They affirm that we have in them, besides counsels to the Churches named in each, a prophetic outline of seven successive periods of the Church’s history; dividing, as they do, into these seven portions the whole time intervening between Christ’s Ascension and his return in glory.”—Richard Chenevix Trench, Commentary on the Epistles to the Seven Churches in Asia (Eugene, OR: Wipf and Stock Publishers, 1861), 224. “The notion itself undoubtedly dates back to a period anterior to the Reformation. The Fratres Spirituales, or more rigid Franciscans, who refused the mitigations of the strictness of St. Francis’ rule, in which the majority of his followers allowed themselves, and who on this account separated themselves from them, and from the Church which sanctioned such relaxations, are the first among whom this scheme of interpretation assumed any prominence.”—Ibid., 227. ..." - Link

"... Victorinus wrote that the Apostle Paul was the first to teach that seven churches would span this age. He said that this is why Paul wrote his epistles to seven churches, although they were not the same ones the Lord addressed in Revelation. Tichaenius taught the same thing in the fourth century, and also Arethas of Cappadocia, Primasius of Adrumetum, Vitringa, and later Mede, More, Girdlestone, and a large body of other early teachers. The great physicist Newton also held this view of the seven churches in Revelation as a prophetic picture of the entire church age. ..." - Link

 

[robycop3]

You don't think these are Laodicean times?

There's no such thing.

 

[robycop3]

You do seem to not have a grasp on the historical, but live in your own little world:

Again, John Gill (a Baptist), in 1774 (way before Darby):

"... the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches;
that is, the seven stars which John saw in Christ's right hand, represent the angels, or pastors of the seven churches of Asia, and in them all the pastors and ministers of the churches in all the periods of time until Christ's second coming. ..."

"... and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches;
represent the seven churches, of Asia, and in them all the churches of Christ, in successive ages, to the end of time; the reasons why these are signified by "candlesticks", (See Gill on Revelation 1:12); and that they are prophetic of the churches of Christ in the several periods of time, until he comes again, will appear from the following considerations: ..." - Revelation 1:20 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

Also:

"... it will seem that these seven Churches, besides their literal respect, were intended (and it may be chiefly) to be as patterns and types of the several ages of the Catholic Church from the beginning thereof unto the end of the world; that so these seven Churches should prophetically sample unto us a sevenfold temper and constitution of the whole Church according to the several ages thereof, answering the pattern of the Churches named here;” compare p. 905. Vitringa (Anacrisis Apocalypsios, p. 32) ...." - Epistles to the Seven Churches in Asia. - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Also:

"... A number of expositors down through history have held that the seven churches represent seven sequential stages of church history.1

1 “They affirm that we have in them, besides counsels to the Churches named in each, a prophetic outline of seven successive periods of the Church’s history; dividing, as they do, into these seven portions the whole time intervening between Christ’s Ascension and his return in glory.”—Richard Chenevix Trench, Commentary on the Epistles to the Seven Churches in Asia (Eugene, OR: Wipf and Stock Publishers, 1861), 224. “The notion itself undoubtedly dates back to a period anterior to the Reformation. The Fratres Spirituales, or more rigid Franciscans, who refused the mitigations of the strictness of St. Francis’ rule, in which the majority of his followers allowed themselves, and who on this account separated themselves from them, and from the Church which sanctioned such relaxations, are the first among whom this scheme of interpretation assumed any prominence.”—Ibid., 227. ..." - Link

"... Victorinus wrote that the Apostle Paul was the first to teach that seven churches would span this age. He said that this is why Paul wrote his epistles to seven churches, although they were not the same ones the Lord addressed in Revelation. Tichaenius taught the same thing in the fourth century, and also Arethas of Cappadocia, Primasius of Adrumetum, Vitringa, and later Mede, More, Girdlestone, and a large body of other early teachers. The great physicist Newton also held this view of the seven churches in Revelation as a prophetic picture of the entire church age. ..." - Link

There's no such thing as "successive church ages", and you can't find it in Scripture. All those churches existed at once, or else John could not have sent letters to all of them at the same time.

Yes, there are types of those churches today, but they didn't come in successive ages. Their types have been here long as the true Christian church has been.

 

[rockytopva]

There's no such thing as "successive church ages", and you can't find it in Scripture. All those churches existed at once, or else John could not have sent letters to all of them at the same time.

Yes, there are types of those churches today, but they didn't come in successive ages. Their types have been here long as the true Christian church has been.

This interpretation refers to the whole Christian church, held in the right hand of Christ....

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 1:20-2:1

There have been those who have used this interpretation to try to make themselves head of a church, such as William Branham. But Angel is plural, everyone saved is an angel, or messenger to his particular church, held in the right hand of God. Don’t let false teachers ruin this interpretation.

The Baptist church did not come along until Sardisean times. I have been to Baptist churches who were Philadelphian in nature. So, I am saying the Baptist church is influenced by three of the seven ages...

1. Sardis - A gem is elegant, so these people tend to be more clean cut
2. Philadelphia- Brotherly love - I have experienced this in the Freewill Baptist foot washing service
3. Laodicea - Most Baptist churches frown on “going Charismatic”

The times effect the churches.

 

[rockytopva]

Jezebel raised her head in Thyatirean times, from Charlemagne to Martin Luther, and was mostly Catholic.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Well, we are in agreement here. I have been called a HERETIC, BLASPHEMOUS, APOSTATE, and other vile names and no one was banned. What's up?

I’m not speaking for them, but you may have to report such posts, perhaps with some explanation, to make the mods aware. Questioning someone's salvation is generally prohibited. Challenging their teaching is not.

 

[37818]

You don't think these are Laodicean times?

No. These seven letters were addressed the seven messengers of those churches.

. . . Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; . . .

 

[Alofa Atu]

I’m not speaking for them, but you may have to report such posts, perhaps with some explanation, to make the mods aware. Questioning someone's salvation is generally prohibited. Challenging their teaching is not.

Then you do realize, that saying that a certain systems of theology are Jezebelian is not saying that persons (individuals) within said system is saying that such are lost automatically, since the word indicates that God's people are within such?

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

People are 'ban-happy', since it is easier to just be rid of someone who actually disagrees with you with scriptural evidence, than to deal with the texts in a fashion in the manner of Jesus Christ:

Mat_22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Mar_12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Mar_12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Instead, what the 'ban-happy' people think the scripture teaches to do is:

Mat_22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye are banned ...

Mar_12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore deserve banning? You are banned, goodbye.

Mar_12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore are ban-hammered, your IP now blocked!

 

[Alofa Atu]

William Branham.

A unitarian heretic, and I have personally come across such people in real life, in my church, who were a beautiful person (an elderly older woman), a godly type of person in so many ways, and yet, absolutely confused about the deity of Jesus Christ, and the Personhood of the Holy Ghost, and who also attempted to teach speaking in 'tongues' all within the church, and even shared said man's name, church, and attempted to get people to go to him.

She was allowed to stay, while under watch, and with counsel not to teach those things after showing her the truth in personal study over several weeks, but she could stay to learn. As stated, she was very kind, but very deceived, and we pitied her in her old age.

 

[Alofa Atu]

There's no such thing as "successive church ages", and you can't find it in Scripture.

Then "John Gill" (a Baptist, noted commentator, etc) found it where when he cited scriptures for it? Where did all the others, cited, find it when they also cited scriptures?

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Then you do realize, that saying that a certain systems of theology are Jezebelian is not saying that persons (individuals) within said system is saying that such are lost automatically, since the word indicates that God's people are within such?

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

People are 'ban-happy', since it is easier to just be rid of someone who actually disagrees with you with scriptural evidence, than to deal with the texts in a fashion in the manner of Jesus Christ:

Mat_22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Mar_12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Mar_12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Instead, what the 'ban-happy' people think the scripture teaches to do is:

Mat_22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye are banned ...

Mar_12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore deserve banning? You are banned, goodbye.

Mar_12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore are ban-hammered, your IP now blocked!

Sorry, but I did not follow whatever thread was related to the ban. I came to this thread to read comments about Jezebel and Baal. I also don’t set the rules or apply them to others. Like I said, I’m not a mod and don’t speak for them, and I’m certainly not an admin (I have yet to reach my first “anniversary”--oops, 2nd one). Whatever concerns may be should be taken up with them.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Sorry, but I did not follow whatever thread was related to the ban.

I am speaking hypothetically.