Who/What/Where is Babylon in Revelation 17 & 18

[kyredneck]

The testimony of the true Christian church for over 1000 years is that this mystery babylon is the papacy/Roman Catholic Church.

I agree with them.

.....and are you saying that those that don't see it this way are not true Christian churches?

 

[RAdam]

The aim of Revelation isn't to point to a specific place that was destroyed over 1900 years ago, but to point to an ongoing war still being fought today. You see people that try to apply the woman to this place or that place, and in doing so they miss the point. The point is this: Satan is attacking God's people and true religion using both civil government and false religion. It's a battle that is still happening today. There is coming a day, however, when God's enemies will be thrown down and destroyed.

Many people say this is Rome, the Empire and/or the Papacy. Those, however, are only types or incarnations of the true. For a time the Papacy persecuted God's people from a civil standpoint and misled them from a religious standpoint. Today we see other things corrupting God's people and leading them away from true religion. That's because there is a devil out there fighting against God's people. We are in an ongoing spiritual warfare. The good news is, we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

.....and are you saying that those that don't see it this way are not true Christian churches?

No, not at all. I was referring to those churches that were not papal.

 

[kyredneck]

The aim of Revelation isn't to point to a specific place that was destroyed over 1900 years ago, but to point to an ongoing war still being fought today. You see people that try to apply the woman to this place or that place, and in doing so they miss the point. The point is this: Satan is attacking God's people and true religion using both civil government and false religion. It's a battle that is still happening today. There is coming a day, however, when God's enemies will be thrown down and destroyed.

Many people say this is Rome, the Empire and/or the Papacy. Those, however, are only types or incarnations of the true. For a time the Papacy persecuted God's people from a civil standpoint and misled them from a religious standpoint. Today we see other things corrupting God's people and leading them away from true religion. That's because there is a devil out there fighting against God's people. We are in an ongoing spiritual warfare. The good news is, we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.

Brother Adam, I believe you are presenting the Idealist view of the book here which I am in agreement with much that you've said. But, I believe it's important to correctly identify the entities in the book at the time of it's penning because these players are still playing. The book is still ongoing.

"The good news is, we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us". Amen.

 

[RAdam]

Brother Adam, I believe you are presenting the Idealist view of the book here which I am in agreement with much that you've said. But, I believe it's important to correctly identify the entities in the book at the time of it's penning because these players are still playing. The book is still ongoing.

"The good news is, we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us". Amen.

Problem is nobody is absolutely sure of when it was penned. Was it in the 60's AD or the 90's AD? Noone knows for sure. People have opinions, but that is all they are. It cannot be gotten at concretely as the text doesn't specifically tell you. Most rely on extra-biblical means, which is unreliable at best. Most of the time a person's opinion of the time it was penned will influence their opinion on who/what the woman was/is. Those who say it was in the 60's AD will say that she was apostate Jerusalem, those who say it was written in the 90's AD will likely say it was Rome. Which is right? Well, you might be right, unless the book was written in the 90's AD after the destruction of Jerusalem. I really think they are problems to trying to nail all these things down to a single entity in the past. I could be wrong about this, but it seems bigger than that.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Problem is nobody is absolutely sure of when it was penned. Was it in the 60's AD or the 90's AD? Noone knows for sure. People have opinions, but that is all they are. It cannot be gotten at concretely as the text doesn't specifically tell you. Most rely on extra-biblical means, which is unreliable at best. Most of the time a person's opinion of the time it was penned will influence their opinion on who/what the woman was/is. Those who say it was in the 60's AD will say that she was apostate Jerusalem, those who say it was written in the 90's AD will likely say it was Rome. Which is right? Well, you might be right, unless the book was written in the 90's AD after the destruction of Jerusalem. I really think they are problems to trying to nail all these things down to a single entity in the past. I could be wrong about this, but it seems bigger than that.

That is a big issue with the book in order to properly interpret it. And certainly internal evidence would be most compelling, but as you said, there isn't too much to go on...or at least from what I have read in Revelation. I have yet to see a definitive statement that essentially dates the book.

But I would not discount external evidence so easily, nor the views of true Christian churches throughout history. They can and do shed light on the subject and help us, esepcially those closer to the time frame for when the book was written.

Nor do I believe the Lord left this in such obscurity that we are left without the ability to rationally interpret the book. God doesn't inspire His prophets and apostles so that we may not understand what He is trying to communicate to His people does He?

 

[RAdam]

That was my point. If we need to date its writing in order to interpret it, God would shed sufficient light on it in order that there would be no reasonable doubt. That isn't the case, however, thus I say we don't need a date in order to correctly interpret it.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

That was my point. If we need to date its writing in order to interpret it, God would shed sufficient light on it in order that there would be no reasonable doubt. That isn't the case, however, thus I say we don't need a date in order to correctly interpret it.

There is where I am disagreeing. I think there is enough out there for us to know. I dont think God would keep such an important fact like that hidden.

 

[kyredneck]

Problem is nobody is absolutely sure of when it was penned. Was it in the 60's AD or the 90's AD? Noone knows for sure. People have opinions, but that is all they are. It cannot be gotten at concretely as the text doesn't specifically tell you......

That is a big issue with the book in order to properly interpret it. And certainly internal evidence would be most compelling....

That was my point. If we need to date its writing in order to interpret it, God would shed sufficient light on it in order that there would be no reasonable doubt......

.... I dont think God would keep such an important fact like that hidden.

It's as I've tried to tell you all before, there IS compelling internal evidence as to WHEN the book was penned:

And I saw another sign in heaven....and them that come off victorious from the beast... they sing the song of Moses the servant of God....Rev 15.1-3

And Jehovah said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and play the harlot after the strange gods of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall come upon them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evil which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods. Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach thou it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.....ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. Dt 31:16-19, 29

Now read for yourselves the Song of Moses, Dt 32. Take note of the many references made by Christ and His apostles to this chapter. Take note that the song is being sang in Rev 15.

 

[RAdam]

That's not very compelling evidence.

 

[kyredneck]

That's not very compelling evidence.

Take it or leave it. It was Elder Fred Stewart's book, 'The Second Coming of Christ and The Thousand Year Reign', that first made me aware of the import of The Song of Moses. He preached in Jackson County, Alabama.

 

[HankD]

There is a reason the imagery of Babylon is used.

Babylon was probably the very first city-state and founded by Nimrod.
Early Babylon under Nimrod was a model of rebellion and a humanistic view of God.

Later Babylon became the city-state that conquered and enslaved Judah.

Here in Revelation it is described as "MYSTERY BABYLON".

"Mystery" probably in reference to its cultural absorption into the helenistic mystery cults of which her "sorceries" - KJV, ("pharmakeia" - Grk.) are mentioned.

"THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH".​

Abominations - Canaanite practices.​

Put it all together - False religion, politics, drugs, immorality, idolatry...​

A world System based upon secular humanism.​

Secular Humanism is a secular philosophy that espouses reason, ethics, and justice, and specifically rejects supernatural and religious dogma as the basis of morality and decision-making. Secular Humanism is a life stance that focuses on the way human beings can lead good, happy and functional lives.

A Secular Humanist Declaration was issued in 1980 by The Council for Democratic and Secular Humanism (CODESH), now the Council for Secular Humanism (CSH). It lays out ten ideals: Free inquiry as opposed to censorship and imposition of belief; separation of church and state; the ideal of freedom from religious control and from jingoistic government control; ethics based on critical intelligence rather than that deduced from religious belief; moral education; religious skepticism; reason; a belief in science and technology as the best way of understanding the world; evolution; and education as the essential method of building humane, free, and democratic societies.

Found online in the Public Domain at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I chose Rome because of the seven hills and it was the world capital at the time of the writing of the document however there is evidence that it could refer to Jerusalem.

 

[Winman]

This is a difficult subject. I have been trying to determine who Babylon is for years. So many theories. To tell you the truth, the impression I get of Babylon, if it be a real place described in Revelations could very well be New York City.

Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

If you ask me, this description of Babylon is New York City, at least at this present time. I don't think it can be doubted that at this present time that New York City is the financial capitol of the world. I don't believe either Rome or Jerusalem fits this desciption shown in Rev. 18. However, verse 24 does not seem to fit, unless prophets can apply to any Christian. All Christians are prophets in the sense that they are "forth-tellers", people who preach the gospel. A prophet is not always someone who predicts the future.

And the mark of the beast is a financial mark, a person cannot buy or sell without it. So, the Beast will not rule so much by military power as financial power.

Now, there will be some who say that NYC is run and controlled by the Jews, and there is some truth to this.

So, I have never completely decided what city this Babylon is, if indeed the scriptures are speaking of a literal city.

And we do not know what the future holds, perhaps NYC will not be the financial capitol of the world in the future. Who knows, perhaps Dubai? Dubai actually fits this description in Rev. 18 well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubai

 

[Gina B]

Babylon is an ancient city in Babil Province, Iraq, about 55 miles south of Baghdad between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. The word babili means "gateway of the god" in ancient Chaldean, but, as a sort of play on words in the Old Testament, it means "confusion."

In my opinion, Babylon means Babylon. It will be the center of both the one world religion and the one world government during the Great Tribulation. Both will be the result of and result in great confusion.

There you go being logical.
I really like the idea that Scripture often just means what it says. Novel concept. I'm willing to work with it. Anyone else?

 

[Zenas]

There you go being logical.
I really like the idea that Scripture often just means what it says. Novel concept. I'm willing to work with it. Anyone else?

Do you think Peter was literally in Babylon when he wrote, "She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings . . . ."? One of my friends believes this, and it is certainly possible, but the extrinsic evidence is overwhelmingly to the contrary.

 

[HankD]

Do you think Peter was literally in Babylon when he wrote, "She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings . . . ."? One of my friends believes this, and it is certainly possible, but the extrinsic evidence is overwhelmingly to the contrary.

Obviously, the Bible is a book full of imagery, signs, symbols. allegory, hyberbole, etc...

To be taken literally where it is evident from the context.
Even then there might be another sense:

Sure, after the fact we wonder what was wrong with the people because they often couldn't figure out what Christ was talking about...

John 2

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.​

"MYSTERY BABYLON" is a major theme of the Book of Revelation from Chapters 14 through 18.

Revelation is a particlarly a book of signs, symbols and imagery.

The word "MYSTERY" is an obvious clue (IMO) that something more than a physical city with a geographical location is being referenced.

The Babylonian empire ended in 539BC but babylonian mother-goddess-child (Nimrod and Semiramis) mystery religions morphed and continued to spread through out the world.

Peter was probably in Rome and was using the word "babylon" because of the neo-babylonian religions and idolatry prevelant in Rome at the time.

The Madonna (Queen of Heaven) and Child mystery cult being assimilated by the Church of Rome with the remnants remaining to this day.

HankD

 

[Winman]

There you go being logical.
I really like the idea that Scripture often just means what it says. Novel concept. I'm willing to work with it. Anyone else?

Do you think Peter was literally in Babylon when he wrote, "She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings . . . ."? One of my friends believes this, and it is certainly possible, but the extrinsic evidence is overwhelmingly to the contrary.

I believe Peter was literally in Babylon when he said this.

I am still leaning toward Dubai. It fits the description of Babylon amazingly well. The scriptures says Babylon sits on seven mountains, which also fits Rome as a city built on seven hills. But mountains often stand for kingdoms in scripture, and Dubai is one of the seven sheikdoms or kingdoms of the United Arab Emirates.

From Wikipedia:

Dubai is one of the seven emirates of the United Arab Emirates

It is also a seaport which Rome and Jerusalem are not. Revelations 18 speaks of the merchants in ships who will look and see the destruction of Babylon.

Rev 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

One interesting thing about Dubai is that it was once the center of pearl trade. Pearls are mentioned several times in this prophesy.

There is no city on earth like Dubai. Click here to see pictures of this city showing current buildings and new proposed buildings. Absolutely incredible.

http://www.whattimeitis.org/ComingEvents/Dubai.htm

 

[Amy.G]

There is no city on earth like Dubai. Click here to see pictures of this city showing current buildings and new proposed buildings. Absolutely incredible.

http://www.whattimeitis.org/ComingEvents/Dubai.htm

Unbelievable! Where does the money come from?

 

[Grasshopper]

Unbelievable! Where does the money come from?

A black substance found deep beneath the sand.