Who/What/Where is Babylon in Revelation 17 & 18

[kyredneck]

.....I believe MYSTERY BABYLON has a much wider scope than "Jerusalem".

HankD

Well, duh, yeah. [friendly sarcasm Hank]

And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. Rev 17:15

For Moses from generations of old hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath. Acts 15:21 (Follow Paul in Acts. In every city in every nation he went to, he went to the synagogues first.)

Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. Acts 2:5 (Don't let the word 'devout' interfere. Wherever the true Israel dwelt the Harlot was there also; not all Isarael is of Israel)

The destruction of Jerusalem literally was cutting the head off of apostate Judaism. It was the center of thier universe.

 

[Logos1]

You nailed it dead center kyredneck. Babylon is simply Jerusalem (the harlot). And not really a big mystery either.

Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth."

It was Jerusalem which slew the martyrs of Jesus and Prophets.

Jesus tells us this also

Matthew 23:37 Lament over Jerusalem
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her broodunder her wings, and you would not!
Further Jesus tells us that a prophet can only be killed at Jerusalem

Luke 13:33-34 33Nevertheless, I must go on my way today and tomorrow and the day following, for it cannot be that a prophet should perish away from Jerusalem.' 34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!

The bible and Jesus tell us all we need to know to identify who Babylon was.

 

[Winman]

It is true that Jerusalem killed many prophets, but it is not true of only Jerusalem. Rome also persecuted Christians and killed prophets like Paul. It is also believed that Peter was crucified by the Romans.

Rome is responsible for far more deaths of Christians than Jerusalem.

 

[brucebaptist]

Hi Bruce, I speak of modern catholicism. Most Catholics are unaware of the history of their church.

I am a former cradle Catholic and in my youth I also was unaware of the blood drenched history of the RCC.

This was one of many (besides the obvious doctrinal errors) of the reasons I left the RCC after my rebirth having begun a life long study of the Bible and Church History.

Yes, I was saved while a Catholic. I left the Church of Rome after 2 years of reading the Bible.


HankD

yes most catholics are very ignorant of their church's past history. if they only knew the truth of that church they may run fast, like i did and sounds like you did as well...

thank God, that He brought us out of that system and delivered us into the Truth...

i agree that a catholic can be saved as a catholic, but i believe that the Holy Spirit will bring them out of that church. i just dont see how a truly saved person can stay in that system and remain saved...

 

[Eagle]

yes most catholics are very ignorant of their church's past history. if they only knew the truth of that church they may run fast, like i did and sounds like you did as well...

thank God, that He brought us out of that system and delivered us into the Truth...

i agree that a catholic can be saved as a catholic, but i believe that the Holy Spirit will bring them out of that church. i just dont see how a truly saved person can stay in that system and remain saved...

I was never "holy" enough to be a Catholic (that is how I sometimes felt as a kid!), but I grew up around very many in Mid-Michigan. As hard as it is to believe that something that corrupt can have saved souls inside, I must nevertheless, believe it. False religion, which I think includes Catholicism, is, I believe, represented by the whore (or Babylon) of Revelation.

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

God says "my people" - they're in there! I reckon this helps to keep us humble as to how the Lord can, and does, work in ways that make us scratch our head sometimes?

 

[brucebaptist]

I was never "holy" enough to be a Catholic (that is how I sometimes felt as a kid!), but I grew up around very many in Mid-Michigan. As hard as it is to believe that something that corrupt can have saved souls inside, I must nevertheless, believe it. False religion, which I think includes Catholicism, is, I believe, represented by the whore (or Babylon) of Revelation.

God says "my people" - they're in there! I reckon this helps to keep us humble as to how the Lord can, and does, work in ways that make us scratch our head sometimes?

i agree. all of my family is catholic. only me a brother and niece have made it out... but when we made it out, we left that church for 'truer pastures'...

i also believe that they can be saved while in that system. but a person has to 'love the Truth'... and we all know that Jesus is the Truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-13
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

i also know a few people who grew up in baptist or protestant circles and rejected the true Gospel... many ended up in catholicism... if you grow up in good church and reject sound teachings... God may just send a person to the catholic church that rejected truth or to the witnesses, or mormons...

i am married to one of those...

and i am not so sure that just because He says, "My people" in that verse... means that they are saved.

Hosea 4:6 (King James Version)
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

if a person professes to know Christ, yet remains in that most hideous of all (so-called) Christian religions... they do reject Truth and knowledge...

 

[Winman]

Originally Posted by Eagle
I was never "holy" enough to be a Catholic (that is how I sometimes felt as a kid!), but I grew up around very many in Mid-Michigan. As hard as it is to believe that something that corrupt can have saved souls inside, I must nevertheless, believe it. False religion, which I think includes Catholicism, is, I believe, represented by the whore (or Babylon) of Revelation.

God says "my people" - they're in there! I reckon this helps to keep us humble as to how the Lord can, and does, work in ways that make us scratch our head sometimes?

There are Catholics who are saved despite the teachings of the church. Some have heard the gospel elsewhere, some have learned from studying the scriptures, but there are Catholics who know and understand the gospel and fully trust Jesus alone as their Savior. Not many, but there are a few.

And you are correct, God is confirming this when he tells "my people" to come out of this false system.

 

[brucebaptist]

there are Catholics who know and understand the gospel and fully trust Jesus alone as their Savior.

yes, there are... but, can they stay in that kind of error and abominations that occur in that church in a day? no, you must come out. you have to come out of that system.

Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

2 Corinthians 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

 

[kyredneck]

.....in my youth I also was unaware of the blood drenched history of the RCC.

This was one of many (besides the obvious doctrinal errors) of the reasons I left the RCC....
HankD

Does your theology give the Jews a free pass on their blood drenched history? And I'm not only referring to ancient history either. Is your theology in alignment with that of the Christian Zionists who emanate the message, 'Every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God, and should be condoned and supported'?

I didn't/don't agree with the politics of Jimmy Carter, but there's much in his stance on Israel today that I agree with.

 

[HankD]

Does your theology give the Jews a free pass on their blood drenched history?

Yes.


HankD

 

[kyredneck]

Originally Posted by kyredneck
Does your theology give the Jews a free pass on their blood drenched history?

Yes.


HankD

Does your theology also give the RCC a free pass on their blood drenched history?

If not, would you explain to me why the Jews get the 'free pass' and the RCC does not?

 

[HankD]

Does your theology also give the RCC a free pass on their blood drenched history?

If not, would you explain to me why the Jews get the 'free pass' and the RCC does not?

Israel was the theocracy of God, the manifestation of the kingdom of God on earth, God commanded them to bring the canaanites under the law or kill them.

His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ gave a new commandment to preach the gospel to every creature and not to kill them.

The Church of Rome has disobeyed His command.
Nowhere in the Scripture did Jesus say to burn people in a bonfire, pull them apart limb by limb, disembowel them, etc... in this age of grace.

God makes the rules for mankind, God changes the rules for mankind.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.​

If you mean modern Israel, no pass for them either, as they are a secular nation and don't pretend to be God's spokesman of Jesus Christ on earth as does the Church of Rome.​

HankD​

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Well, duh, yeah. [friendly sarcasm Hank]

And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. Rev 17:15

For Moses from generations of old hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath. Acts 15:21 (Follow Paul in Acts. In every city in every nation he went to, he went to the synagogues first.)

Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. Acts 2:5 (Don't let the word 'devout' interfere. Wherever the true Israel dwelt the Harlot was there also; not all Isarael is of Israel)

The destruction of Jerusalem literally was cutting the head off of apostate Judaism. It was the center of thier universe.

I'll go with the rule of first mention in the bible. The city mentioned is Jerusalem since they apostated from God and judgment and Jewish eschatology was consumated in 70 AD.

 

[kyredneck]

Israel was the theocracy of God, the manifestation of the kingdom of God on earth, God commanded them to bring the canaanites under the law or kill them.

His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ gave a new commandment to preach the gospel to every creature and not to kill them.

The Church of Rome has disobeyed His command.
Nowhere in the Scripture did Jesus say to burn people in a bonfire, pull them apart limb by limb, disembowel them, etc... in this age of grace.

God makes the rules for mankind, God changes the rules for mankind.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.​

If you mean modern Israel, no pass for them either, as they are a secular nation and don't pretend to be God's spokesman of Jesus Christ on earth as does the Church of Rome.​

HankD​

Hank, if your premise is that the Jews were justified under the law of Moses to commit the atrocities that they did to Christ and His Church, it is absolutely 100% asinine. The Holy Spirit refutes that notion many, many times in the NT.

For those of you of 'The Israel Cult' (and that's exactly what you are, a cult, and most likely the largest one that's ever existed within Christianity):

Google:
Papal apology

The RCC has apologized profusely for the persecutions it did on the early Church.

Then Google:
Jewish apology.

Look long and hard for it.

 

[HankD]

Hank, if your premise is that the Jews were justified under the law of Moses to commit the atrocities that they did to Christ and His Church, it is absolutely 100% asinine. The Holy Spirit refutes that notion many, many times in the NT.

For those of you of 'The Israel Cult' (and that's exactly what you are, a cult, and most likely the largest one that's ever existed within Christianity):

Google:
Papal apology

The RCC has apologized profusely for the persecutions it did on the early Church.

Then Google:
Jewish apology.

Look long and hard for it.

Huh? who said anything about the Jews persecuting the church?

I have no idea what you are getting at.

I was talking about the comandment to the Israelites contemporary with Moses to conquer the Canaanites and take over the land of promise.

RE: The RCC church and the apology you mentioned above:

The RCC has apologized profusely for the persecutions it did on the early Church

The RCC claims that it was the early church.

Could you please document what it is you are trying to prove.

Thanks.

HankD

 

[kyredneck]

Huh? who said anything about the Jews persecuting the church?

Just what do you think I was talking about when I asked you if you gave the Jews 'a free pass' on their blood drenched history? It seems to me that in the typical dispensationaist'sl fashion, you're fixated on the crimes of the RCC, but the Jews get a free pass for their crimes. This thread is about WHO is the Harlot of Revelation. Correct? I say it's apostate Judaism, and you say it is the RCC. Correct?

No, I won't supply any documentation. It's there at your fingertips to find.

My point is: The RCC has ackowledged their wrongdoing. The Jews have not.

 

[HankD]

Just what do you think I was talking about when I asked you if you gave the Jews 'a free pass' on their blood drenched history? It seems to me that in the typical dispensationaist'sl fashion, you're fixated on the crimes of the RCC, but the Jews get a free pass for their crimes. This thread is about WHO is the Harlot of Revelation. Correct? I say it's apostate Judaism, and you say it is the RCC. Correct?

No, I won't supply any documentation. It's there at your fingertips to find.

My point is: The RCC has ackowledged their wrongdoing. The Jews have not.

OK, I think we have had a disconnect or you have me confused with someone else.

No, in my view MYSTERY BABYLON is not the RCC but the totality of the human mindset, the philosophy of the antichrist at the time just before the return of Christ.

I believe the secular humanist philosophy is the seed from which it will eventually bear fruit, the antichrist being the Commander-In-Chief.

It may have a geographical headquarters at that time, I won't even guess, maybe Iraq, maybe Rome, maybe Jerusalem, Seattle, New York???

The Scriptures teach that anyone who denies that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is (of) antichrist.

So, that would have a wider scope than just the RCC church and yes it would include apostate judaism as well as apostate christianity which may well include the RCC at the time of Christ's return and all the religions of the world which deny Christ coming in the flesh.

They will throw in with the antichrist who will eventually turn his wrath on them collectively and all religions of which he is not the center of worship.

I am a dispensationalist but not the standard cookie cutter model.

HankD

 

[kyredneck]

You have my sincere apology Hank. I was wrong on your stance. Thanks for your gentle response.

 

[HankD]

You have my sincere apology Hank. I was wrong on your stance. Thanks for your gentle response.

You're welcome, but its not a problem brother.

HankD

 

[John Cloakey]

Woman/Babylon is London

No one has voted for this one--Babylon is London. There are only two nations that have declared themselves Christian--USA and GB. Who has the potential antichrist (The Antichrist and a Cup of Tea by Tim Cohen)? Who would have apostate Protestantism? Who is reaching across the gulf to bring Muslim Mosques and the RCC (in the last few months) to their country? Who are the leading economic/industrial nations? Who has "The City" that is controlling the ecomonic conditions of the world? Who controls more nations by government and subversiveness, i.e., Rhodes Scholarships, MI6, etc? The USA has not had a president that wasn't related to British royalty. This land will never be inhabitated again after her destruction--during the millenium. My vote is for London!