Who will be in the millennial kingdom?

[Ed Edwards]

// Dispensationalism is the invention of John Darby aided by Cyrus Scofield. It does not come from the Bible. What Jesus Christ said of the Jews [following Scripture] may be said of dispensationalists: //

Again, you condemn me for something somebody else did. I didn't read John Darby until long after I figured out what a dispensational pre-mill was all about.

Again, i will not be held to account for what you misunderstand about what John Darby said (I haven't read John Darby). I married a woman 1963 who had a Scofield II notes KJV. She died in 1999 and I don't have that KJV any more. I did read some from the nKJV with Scofield III notes but that was for the nKJV not the Scofield comentary.

If you want to discuss, discuss with me. Here is what I wrote:

--------------------------------
Dispensation in the NT, KJV1769 family of editions (bolding by Ed):

1 Corinthians 9:17 (KJV1769):
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward:
but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel
is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 (KJV1769):
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
gather together in one all things in Christ, both
which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 (KJV1769):
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 (KJV1769):
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation
of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

The Holy Spirit hasn't shown me a lot more than is here. I do know the Greek word being translated here as 'dispensation' is the Greek word from which we get 'economy'.

I do know (IN SUMMARY OF THE BIBLE off the top of my head) that this is what the economy of God is like:

Bible Prophetic times:
'hour' = the appropriate time
'day' = the appropriate time
or '1 hour' = '1 day' = 1,000 years
'½-week' = 3½-years
'1 day' = 'week' = 7 years
'month' = the appropriate time
year = the appropriate time

Other 'economy of God facts':

the blind see
the dead live
the deaf hear
the lame leap like deer
the first is last
the last is first
Jesus Saves (totally!)
God Rules!!

Frequently the Bible discusses what is to be is discussed in either present tense (is done) or past tense (done already done).

So a study of Greek tenses is generally frustrating. Us human type people can only do one day at a time. God can do everyday at a time - I think God may have invented all the days at the same time?
--------------------------

SO that is Ed's Dispensation Pre-rapture2 (resurrection1 followed by a rapture1) pre-millennial futurist viewpoint. I wouldn't give a nickle for the difference between that and the 2ed century (0101-0200) pre-millinnial futurist viewpoint. The milage of others will vary

What I said here: // requently the Bible discusses what is to be is discussed in either present tense (is done) or past tense (done already done). // is what frequently confuses a-mills into the preterist viewpoint. There are two of God's groups on earth today: the Church Age folk, mostly gentile but including some Messanic Jews, and the Jewish Israel folk (both of which are called the 'church', the 'elect', the 'saints'. But one day they will all be one body (of Jesus) one bride (of Jesus), one people - but that isn't now.


Eph 4:4-6 There is one body,
and one Spirit,
euen as yee are called in one hope of your vocation.
5 There is one Lord,
one Faith,
one Baptisme,
6 One God and Father of all, which is aboue all, and through all, and in you all.

one body; two sets of saints (NT & OT)
one Spirit; three Kingdom's of God
one hope; two groups of the elect (Yisrael & the largely Gentile Church)
one Lord; two churches (NT & OT)
one Faith; five resurrections
one Baptism; five judgements
one God = one Father + one Son + one Spirit

and (on topic: three groups of people and two groups of angels will inhabit the earth during the messianic 1,000 year kingdom

 

[Allan]

Dispensationalism is the invention of John Darby aided by Cyrus Scofield. It does not come from the Bible. What Jesus Christ said of the Jews [following Scripture] may be said of dispensationalists:

Apparently you are one who is not familar with Church history - specifically the first 4 to 500 years of it where the predominant view was the pre-mil view.

The historic pre-mil view was prime and main eschatological view of the early church and the early Church faithers. I would suggest that you do a little research before you regutitate such false claims?

:thumbs:

 

[OldRegular]

Apparently you are one who is not familar with CHurch history - specifically the first 4 to 500 years of it.

The historic pre-mil view was prime and main eschatological view of the early church and the early Church faithers. Do a little research before you regutitate such false claims?

:thumbs:

Again, I had not planned to respond to dispensational error because it is useless. You are confusing dispensationalism premillennialism with historic premillennialism. Historic or covenant premillennialism was the prime view of eschatology for the first ~200 years, not the first 500 years. Also Historic Premillennialism has more in common with Covenant theology than it does dispensational theology. I would advise that you become more familiar with Church history.

My statement that dispensationalism was initially formulated by John Darby about 1830 is true.

 

[Allan]

Again, I had not planned to respond to dispensational error because it is useless. You are confusing dispensationalism premillennialism with historic premillennialism. Historic or covenant premillennialism was the prime view of eschatology for the first ~200 years, not the first 500 years. Also Historic Premillennialism has more in common with Covenant theology than it does dispensational theology. I would advise that you become more familiar with Church history.

Wrong, I think you are confusing dispensationalism with hyper-dispys. Covenant theology is only similar in that they see Christ returning physically also, beyond that the similarities diverage quickly. The Historic pre-mil view did not hold that the church replaced Israel nor that the church became Israel which seperated it greatly eschatologically from the Covenant form by leaps and bounds. Also Covenant theology did not become a majority view until St. Augustine about 500 years later. Before that the Historic Pre-mill view was the in the vast majority position. And yes, the pre-mill is a dispensational based primarily upon the fact that the Church is not Israel and that God is still going to deal with Israel - Historic Pre-mill view. It is for this reason He must return to earth physically and establish His kingdom for the 1000 years.

My statement that dispensationalism was initially formulated by John Darby about 1830 is true.

Again, not historically nor biblically but only to you it is deemed true.

 

[OldRegular]

Wrong, I think you are confusing dispensationalism with hyper-dispys. Covenant theology is only similar in that they see Christ returning physically also, beyond that the similarities diverage quickly. The Historic pre-mil view did not hold that the church replaced Israel nor that the church became Israel which seperated it greatly eschatologically from the Covenant form by leaps and bounds. Also Covenant theology did not become a majority view until St. Augustine about 500 years later. Before that the Historic Pre-mill view was the in the vast majority position. And yes, the pre-mill is a dispensational based primarily upon the fact that the Church is not Israel and that God is still going to deal with Israel - Historic Pre-mill view. It is for this reason He must return to earth physically and establish His kingdom for the 1000 years.


Again, not historically nor biblically but only to you it is deemed true.

You are totally ignorant about historic or covenant premillennialism. If you care to learn a little you might try reading The Millennium, Four Viewpoints edited by Robert Clouse. This little book contains a defense of covenant premillennialism by George Eldon Ladd. He shows that covenant premillennialists do not keep the Church and spiritual Israel distinct, consistent with Covenant Theology and contrary to dispensational belief.

My statement that dispensationalism was initially formulated by John Darby about 1830 is true.

 

[Allan]

You are totally ignorant about historic or covenant premillennialism. If you care to learn a little you might try reading The Millennium, Four Viewpoints edited by Robert Clouse. This little book contains a defense of covenant premillennialism by George Eldon Ladd. He shows that covenant premillennialists do not keep the Church and spiritual Israel distinct, consistent with Covenant Theology and contrary to dispensational belief.

My statement that dispensationalism was initially formulated by John Darby about 1830 is true.

Sorry, They do distinquish between National Israel and the Church. Though I will say they speak of the Chruch as spiritual Israel but ONLY in that we share in the blessing of Israel and not that we have taken their place.
Look Here where the four views are discussed (scroll down till you see "Israel and the Church":

Israel is sometimes the physical nation (Rom. 11:26) and sometimes the church (Rom 9:25-26, 4:11-16, 2:28-29, Gal. 3:7&29, Phil. 3:3)

Physical Israel remains the people of God and will be evangelized.

The above website graph was even editted by Robert G. Clouse (1977)

National Israel (as God's people) is seperate from the Church in the Premil view. The church is seem as 'spiritual Israel' ONLY in the fact that we are fellow partakers of many of the blessing promised to them while some other promises are specific only to the Church. They did not believe the Church became Israel itself nor that it replaced it.

What Historic and Dispensational Premillennialism Hold in Common
Both positions believe:

* There will be an earthly reign of Jesus Christ for approximately one thousand years. Some understand the thousand years to represent a substantial but indefinite period of time. This reign will be personal and bodily. Believers will reign with Christ for this period.
* Prior to the millennium, there will be a period of turmoil, persecution, and suffering called the Great Tribulation. The world will be at its worst.
* The millennium will not begin gradually. It will begin with a cataclysmic event.
* The millennium will be a time of world peace and harmony. Nature will be freed from its curse.
* There will be two literal physical resurrections.
* Israel will have some special significance in the millennium.


Opinion are always true to the ones who hold them but that does not actually make true.

 

[Ed Edwards]

...

My statement that dispensationalism was initially formulated by John Darby about 1830 is true.

Again, nobody is arguing with you about anything but their own dispensational theory.

John Darby's dispensation teaching in 1880 was much different from his simi-dispy teachilng of 1830. Like many of us, he grew in the Holy Spirit as he aged. I don't teach the same dispensation teaching in 2008 that I taught in 1989. (strange date came out of my head, 1989 was the year I read the book: 88 reasons why the Lord will Return in 1988 The Lord didn't return in 1988. However, the 88 reasons were (about 3 dozen reasons expanded for the purposes of '88') fairly good and many are still vaild.

There was a dispensation theory expoused by John Darby in fairly concrete form by 1845 and in print, but not 1830.

I have e-sword notes of John Darby which shows up alongside where I'm reading the Bible. I have three Bibles in e-sword: Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition), KJV1611 Edition, and KJV1769 family of editions with Strong's numbers [ lots easier to use than a gut-bustin' book ] Anyway, the notes of Darby hardly ever approach my undestanding of the dispensation teachings of the Bible.

Has any body noticed that salvation I teach is the same for the mostly Gentile Church of the Church Age (Pentacost to spliting the Mount of Olives, Assenction of Christ to pre-tribulation rapture2 of the Church) is the same salvation as for the Jewish/Israeli elect saints church of the Tribulation Judgement Period? That individual eternal (OSAS) salvation is personal, Messiah-centric, Lord performed. BTW, Salvation is OF WORKS - the Completed Works of Messiah Jesus - our Lord and Savior. Amen.

These are the groups of people who will be in the physical Millinnial Messanic Kingdom;

1. The heathen nations selected in the Matthew 25 Sheep & Goat Nations Judgment - people will be mature at 100 cause the Messianic Kingdom will be lots clean air & water than the times we live in

2. The Jewish/Israel elect saints Church of the Wilderness (protected by the very hand of G-d. The first wilderness was around Mt. Sinai, the second wilderness (during the Tribulation period) around Petra - these people will have eternal bodies

3. The Age of the Gentiles (Time of the Gentiles, Church Age, age where grace is dominate, this current /as of AD 0030 and AD 2008/ evil age, etc) elect saints Church (mostly Gentiles but some Messianic Jews) - these people will be selected (144,000 Israeli, unknown number of Gentiles) at the Judgement Seat of Christ (2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:11-15) - these people will have eternal bodies

Groups #2 & #3 are both described as being in the FIRST JUDGMENT - Revelation 20:4

 

[OldRegular]

Allan

I "looked here" and guess what I found. Problems with dispensationalism. You should have scrolled a little more. As you can see a number of dispensational beliefs are not Biblical but Darby & Scofield or somebody.

1. Not as literal as claim to be.

2. Can only be seen if you put on "dispensational glasses" Especially for you Ed Edwards.

3. Bible doesn't define tribulation as 7 years.

4. Not Christological

5. Ethnically Jewish, inc. sacrifices (Heb. 8:13)

6. Unrealized kingdom (Mt. 12:28)

1. Not as literal as claim to be. Dispensationalist claim a strict literal hermeneutic but they deviate when it is necessary to defend their doctrine such as their interpretation of John 5:28, 29 where the only correct, and literal, interpretation possible is a general resurrection and judgment.

2. Can only be seen if you put on "dispensational glasses" A simple reading of Scripture beginning with Genesis and ending with Revelation will not yield a dispensational understanding. To the contrary God deals with people through covenants and accepts people only on the basis of faith.

3. Bible doesn't define tribulation as 7 years. Just where do dispensationalists get this idea? Not from the Bible

4. Not Christological Dispensationalism is more concerned with national Israel than they are the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ, Spiritual Israel.

5. Ethnically Jewish, inc. sacrifices (Heb. 8:13) The idea of a rebuilt temple and animal sacrifices make light of the once for all sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

6. Unrealized kingdom (Mt. 12:28) Jesus Christ finished the work he came to do. In John 17:4 Jesus Christ states

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Dispensationalists routinely refute this Scripture, saying that Jesus Christ came to establish a Messianic Kingdom and failed so established the Church instead.

 

[Amy.G]

The Lord didn't return in 1988. However, the 88 reasons were (about 3 dozen reasons expanded for the purposes of '88') fairly good and many are still vaild.

You've got to be joking. There was nothing "fairly good" about anything this guy said. He was a false prophet, pure and simple. I remember him saying that when Jesus said we cannot "know" the day or the hour, it really meant that you can know.
The devil loves to mix truth with error to make his garbage easier to swallow.

These are the groups of people who will be in the physical Millinnial Messanic Kingdom;

1. The heathen nations selected in the Matthew 25 Sheep & Goat Nations Judgment - people will be mature at 100 cause the Messianic Kingdom will be lots clean air & water than the times we live in

How is this possible considering the destruction that comes upon the earth during the tribulation? Where does this clean air and water come from??
How can the heathen see God? The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor. 6:9)

2. The Jewish/Israel elect saints Church of the Wilderness (protected by the very hand of G-d. The first wilderness was around Mt. Sinai, the second wilderness (during the Tribulation period) around Petra - these people will have eternal bodies

Now you have saints mixing with the heathen in the kingdom of God, where no unrighteous person can be.

3. The Age of the Gentiles (Time of the Gentiles, Church Age, age where grace is dominate, this current /as of AD 0030 and AD 2008/ evil age, etc) elect saints Church (mostly Gentiles but some Messianic Jews) - these people will be selected (144,000 Israeli, unknown number of Gentiles) at the Judgement Seat of Christ (2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:11-15) - these people will have eternal bodies

??


Maybe I am Amil, because none of this makes sense to me.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Why would a Trinity God only have one Kingdom?

The Kingdom of Christ: the temporal Physical/Literal Millennial Messianic Kingdom
The Kingdom of God: the eternal Spiritual/Literal Kingdom in Heaven
The Kingdom of the Holy Spirit: the eternal SpiritualPhysical Kingdom within the Church Age Saints NOW

(These terms are not that clear cut in the Bibles, just a suggestion).

 

[Amy.G]

Why would a Trinity God only have one Kingdom?

Because the Bible says so? Why would a trinity God have to have 3 kingdoms? Does the trinity God have 3 saviours? 3 ways to heaven?

The Kingdom of Christ: the temporal Physical/Literal Millennial Messianic Kingdom

God's kingdom is not temporal. It is eternal. Christ said "My kingdom is not of this world", and it is without end, yet you are saying that Christ's kingdom is physical and temporal.

The Kingdom of God: the eternal Spiritual/Literal Kingdom in Heaven

Jesus said the kingdom of God is "within you". (Luke 17:21) He didn't say the kingdom of God is in heaven only.

The Kingdom of the Holy Spirit: the eternal SpiritualPhysical Kingdom within the Church Age Saints NOW
(These terms are not that clear cut in the Bibles, just a suggestion).

I am not familiar with the kingdom of the Holy Spirit. The Bible uses the terms Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God.

 

[OldRegular]

You've got to be joking. There was nothing "fairly good" about anything this guy said. He was a false prophet, pure and simple. I remember him saying that when Jesus said we cannot "know" the day or the hour, it really meant that you can know.
The devil loves to mix truth with error to make his garbage easier to swallow.




How is this possible considering the destruction that comes upon the earth during the tribulation? Where does this clean air and water come from??
How can the heathen see God? The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor. 6:9)


Now you have saints mixing with the heathen in the kingdom of God, where no unrighteous person can be.


??


Maybe I am Amil, because none of this makes sense to me.

Right on Amy!:laugh:

 

[Ed Edwards]

// 5. Ethnically Jewish, inc. sacrifices (Heb. 8:13) //

Heb 8:13 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
In that he saith a new Testament, he hath abrogate the olde: nowe that which is disanulled and waxed olde, is ready to vanish away.

BTW, the paper Geneva Bible, 1560 Edition (Hendrickson) has copious commentary (very small print - buy a page magnifier to use with it). These predate Darby quite a bit

 

[Amy.G]

// 5. Ethnically Jewish, inc. sacrifices (Heb. 8:13) //

Heb 8:13 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
In that he saith a new Testament, he hath abrogate the olde: nowe that which is disanulled and waxed olde, is ready to vanish away.

BTW, the paper Geneva Bible, 1560 Edition (Hendrickson) has copious commentary (very small print - buy a page magnifier to use with it). These predate Darby quite a bit

Bro. Ed, did you take your medication today? :laugh:

 

[Ed Edwards]

// Christ said "My kingdom is not of this world", and it is without end, yet you are saying that Christ's kingdom is physical and temporal. //

Uh, you only quote me saying one thing - I said three.

I'm having acute gastric distress - will give 2,000 posts of details BUT NOT NOW.

 

[Amy.G]

Ed Edwards
I'm having acute gastric distress - will give 2,000 posts of details BUT NOT NOW.

TMI! (too much information)

So is that 2000 posts of details! :laugh:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ah! Praise the Lord :jesus: - for Mylanta!

You use the Bible statement that proves #2 as a reason what I said in #1 is false.
You use the Bible statement that proves #3 as a reason what I said in #2 is false.

God is one God
The Trinity God is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Ed#2 // The Kingdom of God: the eternal Spiritual/Literal Kingdom in Heaven

Reply #1: //Christ said "My kingdom is not of this world", and it is without end,//

Ed #3: // The Kingdom of the Holy Spirit: the eternal SpiritualPhysical Kingdom within the Church Age Saints NOW //

reply #2: //Jesus said the kingdom of God is "within you". (Luke 17:21) He didn't say the kingdom of God is in heaven only. //


Ed's parting statement: // (These terms are not that clear cut in the Bibles, just a suggestion).

'These terms' are the ones I used to compare the Trinity of God's Kingdoms to the Trinity of God.

parting reply: // I am not familiar with the kingdom of the Holy Spirit. The Bible uses the terms Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God. //

Actually, Dear Sister, reminds me of my was-Baptist-Deacon is Assembly-of-God-Deacon in the early 1990s at the first Gulf War He said "this situation has changed me from a pre-trib rapturist to a mid-trib rapturist". If a person is going to take the easy-to-understand route - be a PAN-MILL:
Jesus is in Charge and the whole Millennial Messianic Kingdom will PAN OUT ALRIGHT!. :laugh:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Bro. Ed, did you take your medication today? :laugh:

Actually, no. Tuesday is the day I set up my pills for the week: four times per day. The first batch contains a proton-pump inhibitor (makes the stomach make less acid). I have GERD - gastro-esophageal whatever (Reflux Distress?)

The real (but humorous) answer to:

Who will be in the Millennial Kingdom

is: the inhabitants!

 

[Amy.G]

If you want to separate the kingdom of God into 3 kingdoms, so be it. But it is still the Kingdom of God, one Kingdom.


1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

The only way that I see that you can have mortals in the "MK" is to say that it is not part of the Kingdom of God.



Now go take your pills.:laugh: :1_grouphug:

 

[OldRegular]

If you want to separate the kingdom of God into 3 kingdoms, so be it. But it is still the Kingdom of God, one Kingdom.


1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

The only way that I see that you can have mortals in the "MK" is to say that it is not part of the Kingdom of God.



Now go take your pills.:laugh: :1_grouphug:

Amy

Bless your pea pickin heart, :laugh: I believe you have Ed confused!