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Who will be in the millennial kingdom?
- Thread starter Amy.G
- Start date
In other words - what you said about Historic premils NOT distinguishing between Isreal the Nation and the Church was flat out incorrect.OldRegular said:
What he wrote (per his own personal views) toward the end about 'problems' was per his 'own' perspective and interpretive hermenutics. Notice in his own he didn't say anything but (?) meaning simply that he, himself, sees nothing wrong but that doesn't mean there isn't. His understanding of Dispy was not very accurate through out it but I wasn't going to harp on his prejudices I merely wanted to show you that your understanding regarding the Premil postion and Dipsy position (regarding Israel and the church as not being seen as one and the same) was incorrect even according to your own source. And I proved my point. :thumbs:
Sister, it does not say 'enter' it says 'inherit'. No man can have claim to that which is God's (thus able to inherit) unless He is born of God. It is only then that we can 'inherit' that which is God's because of our relational position with Him and thus we have both the right and the authority of Christ in which to rule His Kingdom.Amy.G said:
However a kingdom is not made up of only those who direct decendants that are heirs/joint-heirs awaiting thier inheritance but also of many others whom the heir do so govern.
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Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
OldRegular: // I "looked here" and guess what I found. Problems with dispensationalism. You should have scrolled a little more. As you can see a number of dispensational beliefs are not Biblical but Darby & Scofield or somebody.
...
// 3. Bible doesn't define tribulation as 7 years.
... //
-----------------------------------------------
While it has been noted (note on another venue)
that 42 months of 30 days are
1260 days and they both are 3½ years of 360 days each;
there is another related prophetic time:
"time, and times, and half (a time)" or
'time, times, and a dividing of time'.
(Revelation 12:14, Daniel 12:7, Daniel 7:25).
Ah, these are mentioned, just no mention that
'time, times, and half a time' = 1+2+½ = 3½-years.
Dan 9:27 [KJV1611 Edition]:
And hee shall confirme the couenant with many for one weeke:
and in the midst of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice
and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of abominations
hee shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation,
& that determined, shalbe powred vpon the desolate.
Dan 9:27 implies that there are two halves of Daniel's 70th week.
I believe the AOD (abomination of Desolation) happens
in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.
Let us look at the 42 months, 3½-year, 1260days,
time-times-and-half-a-time passages & half weeks:
All selections are from the KJV1611 Edition:
Dan 7:25 [KJV1611 Edition]:
And he shall speake great words against
the most high, and shall weare out the Saints of the most high, and thinke
to change times, and lawes: and they shall be giuen into his hand,
vntill a time and times, & the diuiding of time.
The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.
Dan 12:7 [KJV1611 Edition]:
And I heard the man clothed in linnen,
which was vpon the waters of the riuer, when he held vp his right hand,
and his left hand vnto heauen, and sware by him that liueth for euer, that it shalbe
for a time, times, and an halfe: and when hee shall haue accomplished
to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall bee finished.
The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.
Rev 11:1-3 [two references from KJV1611 Edition]:
And there was giuen me a reede like
vnto a rod, and the Angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the Temple
of God, and the Altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the Court which is without the
Temple leaue out, and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles, and the holy citie
shall they tread vnder foote fourty and two moneths.
3 And I will giue power vnto my two witnesses,
and they shall prophesie a thousand two hundred and threescore dayes
clothed in sackcloth.
The measuring devise signifies that the temple mount is to be
measured for the rebuilding of the temple. I believe this
Temple will be rebuilt in 3½-years.
The two witness will have POWER and will prophesie 1260 days
Sorry folks but if Antichrist scatters the power of the people
for 3½-years and the two witnesses have power 3½-years -- how can
this be at the same time? Two different periods of 3½-years are suggested
Rev 11:2 [KJV1611 Edition]:
But the Court which is without the Temple leaue out,
and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles,
and the holy citie shall they tread vnder foote
fourty and two moneths.
The reason not to measure, is because nothing will be built
where the 'Court which is without the Temple' AKA: Court
of the Nations or Court of the Gentiles.
The Temple consists of the Holy of Holies & in the Holy Place
in a tall building (taller than it is wide).
Around that is the court where sacrifices are made.
Sacrifices can be made while the Holy of Holies & Holy Place
building is being built.
Outside the court of the men is the court of the nations.
This part of the temple complex: court of the nations,
is where the 3ed most holy shrine of the Muslim world stands
today: the Dome of the Rock. Interesting prophecy, eh ? written
in about 96AD about a situation which didn't exist until
about 686AD.
Rev 12:6 [reference #6 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And the woman fled into the wildernesse, where shee hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand, two hundred, and threescore dayes.
The woman flees into the wilderness 3½-years.
Rev 12:14 [KJV1611 Edition]:
And to the woman were giuen two wings of a great Eagle, that shee might flee into the wildernesse into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and halfe a time, from the face of the serpent.
God protects the woman in the wilderness 3½-years.
This is OBVIOUSLY the same period as in Rev 12:6.
Rev 13:5 KJV1611 Edition]:
And there was giuen vnto him a mouth, speaking great things, and blasphemies, and power was giuen
vnto him to continue fortie and two moneths.
This is generally considered the rule of the Antichrist for
3½-years. But note the word 'continue' - Antichrist is already
ruling something and continues his rule for 3½-years more.
This also indicates two periods, both of which could be 3½-years
in length.
So here is what I end up with for the two suggested each 3½-year-periods from Daniel 9:27.
1. - the 3½-years in which the antichrist rises to power
- the two witness will have POWER and will prophesy 3½-years
- the holy city (Jerusalem) is tread underfoot (while the temple /in --- Jerusalem/ is built)
2. - The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.
- the 3½-years in which the antichrist rules in power
- The woman (Yisrael) flees into the wilderness 3½-years
- God protects the woman (Yisrael) in the wilderness 3½-years.
To use these to halves of Daniel's 70th week
(each 3½-years long) in any other manner puts one
into contradictions with different prophecies.
Severl have mentioned, if 2 different periods, why
not five? To which I still say: no reason
to do that. Daniel in Daniel 9 just talks about the
two times.
One that keeps getting run into is the saying that
the two 3½-year periods have already happened.
That contradicts the saying in Daniel 9 that
the Messiah shall give of Himself AFTER THE
69th WEEK (not in the middle of 'week' 70).
-----------------------------------
// 2. Can only be seen if you put on "dispensational glasses" Especially for you Ed Edwards. //
1980s - Tee Hee! (now: :laugh: )
What you call "dispensational glasses' I call 'using the Bible to interpret the Bible'. The old car salesman adage applies: "The mileage of others may vary".
...
// 3. Bible doesn't define tribulation as 7 years.
... //
-----------------------------------------------
While it has been noted (note on another venue)
that 42 months of 30 days are
1260 days and they both are 3½ years of 360 days each;
there is another related prophetic time:
"time, and times, and half (a time)" or
'time, times, and a dividing of time'.
(Revelation 12:14, Daniel 12:7, Daniel 7:25).
Ah, these are mentioned, just no mention that
'time, times, and half a time' = 1+2+½ = 3½-years.
Dan 9:27 [KJV1611 Edition]:
And hee shall confirme the couenant with many for one weeke:
and in the midst of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice
and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of abominations
hee shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation,
& that determined, shalbe powred vpon the desolate.
Dan 9:27 implies that there are two halves of Daniel's 70th week.
I believe the AOD (abomination of Desolation) happens
in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.
Let us look at the 42 months, 3½-year, 1260days,
time-times-and-half-a-time passages & half weeks:
All selections are from the KJV1611 Edition:
Dan 7:25 [KJV1611 Edition]:
And he shall speake great words against
the most high, and shall weare out the Saints of the most high, and thinke
to change times, and lawes: and they shall be giuen into his hand,
vntill a time and times, & the diuiding of time.
The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.
Dan 12:7 [KJV1611 Edition]:
And I heard the man clothed in linnen,
which was vpon the waters of the riuer, when he held vp his right hand,
and his left hand vnto heauen, and sware by him that liueth for euer, that it shalbe
for a time, times, and an halfe: and when hee shall haue accomplished
to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall bee finished.
The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.
Rev 11:1-3 [two references from KJV1611 Edition]:
And there was giuen me a reede like
vnto a rod, and the Angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the Temple
of God, and the Altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the Court which is without the
Temple leaue out, and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles, and the holy citie
shall they tread vnder foote fourty and two moneths.
3 And I will giue power vnto my two witnesses,
and they shall prophesie a thousand two hundred and threescore dayes
clothed in sackcloth.
The measuring devise signifies that the temple mount is to be
measured for the rebuilding of the temple. I believe this
Temple will be rebuilt in 3½-years.
The two witness will have POWER and will prophesie 1260 days
Sorry folks but if Antichrist scatters the power of the people
for 3½-years and the two witnesses have power 3½-years -- how can
this be at the same time? Two different periods of 3½-years are suggested
Rev 11:2 [KJV1611 Edition]:
But the Court which is without the Temple leaue out,
and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles,
and the holy citie shall they tread vnder foote
fourty and two moneths.
The reason not to measure, is because nothing will be built
where the 'Court which is without the Temple' AKA: Court
of the Nations or Court of the Gentiles.
The Temple consists of the Holy of Holies & in the Holy Place
in a tall building (taller than it is wide).
Around that is the court where sacrifices are made.
Sacrifices can be made while the Holy of Holies & Holy Place
building is being built.
Outside the court of the men is the court of the nations.
This part of the temple complex: court of the nations,
is where the 3ed most holy shrine of the Muslim world stands
today: the Dome of the Rock. Interesting prophecy, eh ? written
in about 96AD about a situation which didn't exist until
about 686AD.
Rev 12:6 [reference #6 from JKV1611 Edition]:
And the woman fled into the wildernesse, where shee hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand, two hundred, and threescore dayes.
The woman flees into the wilderness 3½-years.
Rev 12:14 [KJV1611 Edition]:
And to the woman were giuen two wings of a great Eagle, that shee might flee into the wildernesse into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and halfe a time, from the face of the serpent.
God protects the woman in the wilderness 3½-years.
This is OBVIOUSLY the same period as in Rev 12:6.
Rev 13:5 KJV1611 Edition]:
And there was giuen vnto him a mouth, speaking great things, and blasphemies, and power was giuen
vnto him to continue fortie and two moneths.
This is generally considered the rule of the Antichrist for
3½-years. But note the word 'continue' - Antichrist is already
ruling something and continues his rule for 3½-years more.
This also indicates two periods, both of which could be 3½-years
in length.
So here is what I end up with for the two suggested each 3½-year-periods from Daniel 9:27.
1. - the 3½-years in which the antichrist rises to power
- the two witness will have POWER and will prophesy 3½-years
- the holy city (Jerusalem) is tread underfoot (while the temple /in --- Jerusalem/ is built)
2. - The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.
- the 3½-years in which the antichrist rules in power
- The woman (Yisrael) flees into the wilderness 3½-years
- God protects the woman (Yisrael) in the wilderness 3½-years.
To use these to halves of Daniel's 70th week
(each 3½-years long) in any other manner puts one
into contradictions with different prophecies.
Severl have mentioned, if 2 different periods, why
not five? To which I still say: no reason
to do that. Daniel in Daniel 9 just talks about the
two times.
One that keeps getting run into is the saying that
the two 3½-year periods have already happened.
That contradicts the saying in Daniel 9 that
the Messiah shall give of Himself AFTER THE
69th WEEK (not in the middle of 'week' 70).
-----------------------------------
// 2. Can only be seen if you put on "dispensational glasses" Especially for you Ed Edwards. //
1980s - Tee Hee! (now: :laugh: )
What you call "dispensational glasses' I call 'using the Bible to interpret the Bible'. The old car salesman adage applies: "The mileage of others may vary".
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
The Five Tribulations
Joh 16:33 (KJV1611 Edition):
These things I haue spoken vnto you,
that in me ye might haue peace, in the world
ye shall haue tribulation: but be of good cheare,
I haue ouercome the world.
Here is my essay from the early 1990s about
Tribulation:
---------------------------------
The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed
The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, affliction, trouble
1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointments,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity, torture
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's expulsion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, atheists, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millennial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, atheists, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus
4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
(AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus
5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus
Note that #1, #2, and #3 are measured in travail units;
#4 and #5 are measured in time units.
Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:
The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompense in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:
---------------------------------
Joh 16:33 (KJV1611 Edition):
These things I haue spoken vnto you,
that in me ye might haue peace, in the world
ye shall haue tribulation: but be of good cheare,
I haue ouercome the world.
Here is my essay from the early 1990s about
Tribulation:
---------------------------------
The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed
The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, affliction, trouble
1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointments,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity, torture
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's expulsion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, atheists, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millennial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, atheists, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus
4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
(AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus
5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus
Note that #1, #2, and #3 are measured in travail units;
#4 and #5 are measured in time units.
Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:
The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompense in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:
---------------------------------
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Amy, this is an interesting verse. It tells us that there is no oxygen in the KoG.Amy.G said:
When we get raptured and go to the kingdom of God, even the first part of our "journey" will be "to the air/clouds" where there is insufficient oxygen for our present bodies. :saint:
And you would be correct. The MK is the earthly kingdom of Christ (KoH) that precedes the New Earth/New Heavens/New Jerusalem KoG.
Now whereas Christ's kingdom (MK) would be part of the KoG, it is not, technically, the same thing but a subset of KoG much as Earth is a subset of the universe.
skypair
:1_grouphug: I'll accept the "group hug!" :laugh:
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Allan said:
My point is the millennial reign is temporary. The Kingdom of God last forever. If the millennial reign were His kingdom how could it be destroyed?. What do you do with the survivors of the tribulation?. They are still in there physical bodies, and still able to bear children. What about the children born after the tribulation?
These are all things that do not fit into the Kingdom of God. So where does the end meet it's end and eternity last for ever?
When does heaven begin?
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
I'll offer the Group Hug: :1_grouphug:skypair said:
(This group hug depicts the five types of beings that will inhabit the temporal Kingdom of God [KoG], the Millennial Messianic Kingdom:
red - 144,000 Israeli saints saved in the church age - Eternal Body
purple - 18 Million saved Israeli saints saved in the Tribulation period - Eternal Bodies
blue - The Living Word of God: Messiah Jesus - Eternal Body
green - gentile saved saints saved in the church age - Eternal Body
yellow - Heathen nations (selected at the Matthew chapt 25 Judgment) - stronger earthly bodies - people will live well over 100 years)
Note that the people in eternal bodies will also live in the eternal Kingdom of God - Earth through endless ages and/or Heaven.
Apparently Eternal Bodies don't reproduce. So it may be that the Israeli saints who enter the Millennium will have temporary bodies (later to be given eternal bodies) so that the Israeli might expand. But either way, the extrapolation is outside the Bible data.
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I believe I need to make a couple oc corrections, Ed.Ed Edwards said:
Actually, these SURVIVE the tribulation just like the "sheep." indeed, they are the ones judged in the parable of the Talents, Mt 25:14-30. They will have bodies as believers have today -- bodies of "terrestrial glory" that can reproduce.
Again, "terrestrial glory."
Agreed -- which is a body of "CELESTIAL glory."
Agreed -- although I'm not convinced they will be present here or in NJ.
Agreed -- judged in the parable of the sheep and goats.
But you left out 2 groups: Resurrected 1) OT & trib deceased, believing Jews ("hidden treasure," Mt 13:40) and 2) OT & trib martyred Gentile saints ("pearl of great price," Mt 13:45) who are resurrected to earth from their graves into bodies of "terrestrial glory" per Mt 22:30. They are the ones who "are as the angels," who neither "marry nor are given in marriage," who cannot experience the "2nd [physical] death" (Rev 20:6)
Now these "all must be changed" (1Cor 15:51 as we will have already been in the pretrib rapture) to bodies of "celestial glory" which occurs at the end of the MK in Rev 20:11.
skypair
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Me!:thumbs:
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Amy.G said:You're kidding right?
He may have a point. We come burting out of our graves and go into the air to meet him which will be real problematic. since there a litterally bodies everywhere a born again believer could get raptured right through a house! Imagine the property damage. Would it hurt our heads? Very curious about this. then we are up in the air where skypar is right it will be cold and insufficient oxygen So we can't breath without falling right back to sleep or freezing which would be very impractical as a reward. How much damage will occure to the earth before the tribulation by this partial return of Christ? Will he be liable to pay damages? Or would it be ok by our insurance companies since it falls under the "Act of God" clause? Will people who are alive and in buses have to burst through aluminium roofs? There are some serious considerations here.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Topic Question: // Who will be in the millennial kingdom? //
Rev Revmitchell:
// Me!:thumbs: //
I'm with Rev 'M' :wavey:
Rev Revmitchell:
// Me!:thumbs: //
I'm with Rev 'M' :wavey:
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
// Will people who are alive and in buses have to burst through aluminium roofs? There are some serious considerations here. //
And unbreakable glass ceilings - those will be rough on you lady persons.
And unbreakable glass ceilings - those will be rough on you lady persons.
Marcia
Active Member
Thinkingstuff said:
Don't you think that God can take care of these problems? After all, He did create the world out of nothing.
On another point - you are making fun of a view that many people do have scriptural support for, even if you disagree. If I wrote something like that re Calvinism, people here would tear my head off and be nasty.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Marcia said:
The amillennial view of a general resurrection and judgment is Biblical and the historic Baptist view, that is, unless you want to cut John 5:28, 29 out of the Bible.:laugh:
Historic baptist view?
Here's what 1700s era Baptists believed:
"Many of the Baptists believe the Millennium, or the saints living and reigning with Christ upon earth 1000 years, for which there have not been wanting many judicious advocates;"
---James Murray, The History of Religion: Particularly of the Principal Denominations of Christians, 2d ed. (London, 1764) vol. 4, p. 225.
Here's what 1700s era Baptists believed:
"Many of the Baptists believe the Millennium, or the saints living and reigning with Christ upon earth 1000 years, for which there have not been wanting many judicious advocates;"
---James Murray, The History of Religion: Particularly of the Principal Denominations of Christians, 2d ed. (London, 1764) vol. 4, p. 225.