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Who will be the next Baptist Pope?
- Thread starter KPBAP
- Start date
Our "fundamental/modernist" controversy led to the 1923 BFM (AND two new Independent denominations) ...
El, tell me more. As a whole the SBC avoided much of the fundamentalist/modernist controversy. I was speaking in very general terms. I know that there were attempts to remove professors at some SBC colleges and seminaries in the 20s.
I'm interested in the two denominations that developed from SBC's BFM 23.
El, tell me more. As a whole the SBC avoided much of the fundamentalist/modernist controversy. I was speaking in very general terms. I know that there were attempts to remove professors at some SBC colleges and seminaries in the 20s.
I'm interested in the two denominations that developed from SBC's BFM 23.
Worldliness has set in the SBC. They need to take a serious look at the early leaders of the SBC.
A friend of mine went to a church growth conference (while at the same time the seminary professors were teaching against what the SBC was teaching regarding church growth) and when he returned I asked him about the conference. He told me that the conference was about where to start churches. The leaders of the conference told the attenders that the best places to start churches is in wealthy areas.
While I was a student in seminary and standing talking to the pastor of the church I attended the assistant pastor came up and mentioned about a wealthy man who came to church for the first time that day and how they needed to visit him. He went on to mention how the visitor would be a good person to have in the church because he was wealthy. The pastor agreed.
Today those two men are leaders in the SBC.
Then why did Paige Patterson holler for a seminary offering while at the same time have a large addition put on his home to house his books? Is that what the conservative resurgence is all about--health and wealth? Why does he take excursions to Africa and travel all over the US aiding the air travel industry in his travels to churches to the west and east coast from Texas. I would bet that the missionaries and poor pastors would love to have that luxury money.
Every denomination has its money hungry folks. And.. as was just said.. when a good man begins receivng a salary of 125,000 bucks a year it changes him.Seen it first hand. My first SBC pastor was making $95,000 in a church of 1100 people. One business meeting..and this was 1985, he asked for a raise of $10,000. A meeting by the deacons was called later and they asked the pastor to resign. Glory hallelujah!
Many go on with this lifestyle of money because no one dares confront them.
Many go on with this lifestyle of money because no one dares confront them.
"they start drawing a 6 figure salary, with a leased car, custom made suit and free membership to the country club."
"
I showed this excerpt to our 2 pastors and they both want to express their heartfelt envy at some of their US counterparts. Neither of them is however quite sure what a pastor is supposed to do with a custom made suit and free membership to a country club.
"The greater trouble I see is how pastors, seminary presidents and denominational leaders are "placed on pedestals" as if they are beyond sinning and are CEO's and not shepherds. "
"
As everybody knows, baptist christianity in the USA has something of a feud going on with the RCC. That denomination is basically dead overhere, so we feud with extremist calvinist splintergroups instead.
Anyways, last time I checked one of those groups (the Oudgereformeerden) have only 2 pastors for 60 congregations. One of them is so influential that basically nothing get's done without his explicit involvement and consent. Even in his own denomination people have started calling him "king of church" behind his back.
"
I showed this excerpt to our 2 pastors and they both want to express their heartfelt envy at some of their US counterparts. Neither of them is however quite sure what a pastor is supposed to do with a custom made suit and free membership to a country club.
"The greater trouble I see is how pastors, seminary presidents and denominational leaders are "placed on pedestals" as if they are beyond sinning and are CEO's and not shepherds. "
"
As everybody knows, baptist christianity in the USA has something of a feud going on with the RCC. That denomination is basically dead overhere, so we feud with extremist calvinist splintergroups instead.
Anyways, last time I checked one of those groups (the Oudgereformeerden) have only 2 pastors for 60 congregations. One of them is so influential that basically nothing get's done without his explicit involvement and consent. Even in his own denomination people have started calling him "king of church" behind his back.
So many of my non saved friends marvel how all of us "born again believers" differ in style of worship and opinions or bible versions, etc.
I personally like Jerry Falwell. But nope, we don't have a pope....thank the Lord above for that!
Pope John Paul wanted Mary to be elevated to
"co-redemptrex", did you all know that?
Debbie C
I personally like Jerry Falwell. But nope, we don't have a pope....thank the Lord above for that!
Pope John Paul wanted Mary to be elevated to
"co-redemptrex", did you all know that?
Debbie C
"Pope John Paul wanted Mary to be elevated to
"co-redemptrex", did you all know that?"
"
I hear that story all the time, but only from SDA's and baptists that are fiercely anti-Catholic to begin with.
It's an urban legend.
Not that the RCC hierarchy doesn't have an unhealthy obsession with Mary...
"co-redemptrex", did you all know that?"
"
I hear that story all the time, but only from SDA's and baptists that are fiercely anti-Catholic to begin with.
It's an urban legend.
Not that the RCC hierarchy doesn't have an unhealthy obsession with Mary...
In two churches I pastored in the south there were some who thought it would be good to go to the local restaurant and sip on coffee in the mornings with people from town. I told them I didn't have time for that. My mornings were taken studying and praying. Needless to say both churches had faltered and began to grow when I showed up and enlisted people in doing ministry. Many of the people were so involved in "church" that they were unable to answer a number of basic questions about them. One of the first things I did was to shut down most of their programs and told them to get to know their neighbors and BBQ with them. None of those churches had had pastors who trained them and taught them to do evangelism and study the Bible before and make disciples. They had been spending their time thinking about ways to get people in the door instead of going to them. They had been thinking about programs and methods instead of praying for them and seeking God first. After one year God gave us everything we wanted and more than they had ever had. There would be people who would show up on a Sunday and when I visited them during the week they would tell me they had heard about us and came to help.Originally posted by mioque:
"they start drawing a 6 figure salary, with a leased car, custom made suit and free membership to the country club."
"
I showed this excerpt to our 2 pastors and they both want to express their heartfelt envy at some of their US counterparts. Neither of them is however quite sure what a pastor is supposed to do with a custom made suit and free membership to a country club.
"The greater trouble I see is how pastors, seminary presidents and denominational leaders are "placed on pedestals" as if they are beyond sinning and are CEO's and not shepherds. "
"
As everybody knows, baptist christianity in the USA has something of a feud going on with the RCC. That denomination is basically dead overhere, so we feud with extremist calvinist splintergroups instead.
Anyways, last time I checked one of those groups (the Oudgereformeerden) have only 2 pastors for 60 congregations. One of them is so influential that basically nothing get's done without his explicit involvement and consent. Even in his own denomination people have started calling him "king of church" behind his back.
Debbie C
My apologies, There is most certainly a movement to get Mary promoted to co-redeemer. I just found their website.
"Here's a short description from the petition submitted to the Pope:
When the Church invokes Mary under the title, "Coredemptrix", she means that Mary uniquely participated in the redemption of the human family by Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Saviour. At the Annunciation (cf.Lk.1:38) Mary freely cooperated in giving the Second Person of the Trinity his human body which is the very instrument of redemption, as Scripture tells us: "We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Heb.10:10).
And at the foot of the cross of our Saviour (Jn.19:26), Mary's intense sufferings, united with those of her Son, as Pope John Paul II tells us, were, "also a contribution to the Redemption of us all" (Salvifici Doloris, n.25). Because of this intimate sharing in the redemption accomplished by the Lord, the Mother of the Redeemer is uniquely and rightly referred to by Pope John Paul II and the Church as the "Coredemptrix."
It is important to note that the prefix "co" in the title Coredemptrix does not mean "equal to" but rather "with", coming from the Latin word cum. The Marian title Coredemptrix never places Mary on a level of equality with her Divine Son, Jesus Christ. Rather it refers to Mary's unique human participation which is completely secondary and subordinate to the redeeming role of Jesus, who alone is true God and true Man.
Mary's role was unique. If she had said 'no' to Gabriel ... to God, would we have a Savior, would we have our true Redeemer ... our Lord .... the Messiah? Mary played a definite role in our salvation. But back to the original statement ... that role is entirely dependent and subordinate on Jesus. "
http://www.catholicsource.net/articles/coredemptrix.html
And here we have some supporters of that title about the pope's support of it.
http://www.voxpopuli.org/response_1.php
Classic example of dodgy RC theology. When you read all of the fine print one could hold to the claim that it isn't actually heretic (it just get's uncomfortably close to the edge), but you have the certainty that the run of the mill person in the pew is not going to read the fine print and those prone to it will end up believing a heresy.
My apologies, There is most certainly a movement to get Mary promoted to co-redeemer. I just found their website.
"Here's a short description from the petition submitted to the Pope:
When the Church invokes Mary under the title, "Coredemptrix", she means that Mary uniquely participated in the redemption of the human family by Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Saviour. At the Annunciation (cf.Lk.1:38) Mary freely cooperated in giving the Second Person of the Trinity his human body which is the very instrument of redemption, as Scripture tells us: "We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Heb.10:10).
And at the foot of the cross of our Saviour (Jn.19:26), Mary's intense sufferings, united with those of her Son, as Pope John Paul II tells us, were, "also a contribution to the Redemption of us all" (Salvifici Doloris, n.25). Because of this intimate sharing in the redemption accomplished by the Lord, the Mother of the Redeemer is uniquely and rightly referred to by Pope John Paul II and the Church as the "Coredemptrix."
It is important to note that the prefix "co" in the title Coredemptrix does not mean "equal to" but rather "with", coming from the Latin word cum. The Marian title Coredemptrix never places Mary on a level of equality with her Divine Son, Jesus Christ. Rather it refers to Mary's unique human participation which is completely secondary and subordinate to the redeeming role of Jesus, who alone is true God and true Man.
Mary's role was unique. If she had said 'no' to Gabriel ... to God, would we have a Savior, would we have our true Redeemer ... our Lord .... the Messiah? Mary played a definite role in our salvation. But back to the original statement ... that role is entirely dependent and subordinate on Jesus. "
http://www.catholicsource.net/articles/coredemptrix.html
And here we have some supporters of that title about the pope's support of it.
http://www.voxpopuli.org/response_1.php
Classic example of dodgy RC theology. When you read all of the fine print one could hold to the claim that it isn't actually heretic (it just get's uncomfortably close to the edge), but you have the certainty that the run of the mill person in the pew is not going to read the fine print and those prone to it will end up believing a heresy.
GB.. what you described is especially common down south with my SBC friends. The Independent Baptists down here, as I said before, are aggressive go-getters.. we go out and witness, visit, etc. The SBC pastors set up programs and classes,, things that allow a person to build his schedule around the church. Always some kind of class or some event to draw people.
Personally I love to go to the church BBQ, crawfish boils, etc. However, our church does this very sparingly but visitation is something we all do and is aimed at going to the people.
My friend's church uses the opposite approach and does what he can to make the church building pretty, offers programs and events to draw people to the door. The problem is that is exactly what the church has done for 60 years.
Not meaning to cut down on SBC folks.. I'd rather see an SBC preacher than some brain-washed Ind Fund Bapt who spoke and preached like his preacher hero.
Personally I love to go to the church BBQ, crawfish boils, etc. However, our church does this very sparingly but visitation is something we all do and is aimed at going to the people.
My friend's church uses the opposite approach and does what he can to make the church building pretty, offers programs and events to draw people to the door. The problem is that is exactly what the church has done for 60 years.
Not meaning to cut down on SBC folks.. I'd rather see an SBC preacher than some brain-washed Ind Fund Bapt who spoke and preached like his preacher hero.
From the people I've met at seminary, there seem to be two camps within the conservative resurgence. The first, sees programs as a way to grow the church, because they see the church as a group of people and a building.
The other group that I see among the students is the group that has disdain for programs etc and sees theology as the way to grow the church becasue they see the church as the bride of Christ.
For instance, it was either Dr. Mohler's convocation this semester, or Dr. Moore in chapel one day who talked about the way to solve problems in the church was not to seek consultants, but to preach the Bible and teach theology -- I think it was Dr. Mohler.
The other group that I see among the students is the group that has disdain for programs etc and sees theology as the way to grow the church becasue they see the church as the bride of Christ.
For instance, it was either Dr. Mohler's convocation this semester, or Dr. Moore in chapel one day who talked about the way to solve problems in the church was not to seek consultants, but to preach the Bible and teach theology -- I think it was Dr. Mohler.
I Am Blessed 24
Active Member
I don't lump all SBC preachers together, please don't lump all IFB preachers together.
That is an offensive remark.
Back to Baptist Popes.
I'm reminded of a statement made by former Israeli Prime Minister Golda Mier to President Lyndon Johnson:
Johnson: Maddam you must understand I am President of a nation of over 200,000,000 citzens.
Mier: Sir you must understand I am Prime Minister of a nation of 6 million Prime Ministers!
The average Southern Baptist is happy with the Pope he has, HIMSELF!
Tom
I'm reminded of a statement made by former Israeli Prime Minister Golda Mier to President Lyndon Johnson:
Johnson: Maddam you must understand I am President of a nation of over 200,000,000 citzens.
Mier: Sir you must understand I am Prime Minister of a nation of 6 million Prime Ministers!
The average Southern Baptist is happy with the Pope he has, HIMSELF!
Tom
D
dianetavegia
Guest
Excuse me, I am an independent fundamental Baptist preacher myself. Simple English... I never lumped anybody together . I said it in singlular form. It's an isolated reference. Believe me, you can ask anyone who knows me, I am Independent Baptist.
My point is we come across those who are exactly as i described, clones grown from lifting a man way above what he is supposed to be lifted, instead of being changed and led of the Spirit.
Further, i think I know more Independent Baptists than you do. I know more Southern Baptists than you do, too. Indepedent Baptists (and this is a broad brush) generally give their pastor more authority and some (not as wide a brush) are mere blind followers of the leader.. and this is the case more often with Ind Baptists than with SBC folks. On the other hand, while the SBC folks are less likely to follower a preacher, they are more prone to follow the religious machine created by their denomination.
Neither are perfect. I prefer Independent Baptist, but I will shake the hand of any SBCer that I wish to. If that offends my Ind Baptist brethren, so be it.
My point is we come across those who are exactly as i described, clones grown from lifting a man way above what he is supposed to be lifted, instead of being changed and led of the Spirit.
Further, i think I know more Independent Baptists than you do. I know more Southern Baptists than you do, too. Indepedent Baptists (and this is a broad brush) generally give their pastor more authority and some (not as wide a brush) are mere blind followers of the leader.. and this is the case more often with Ind Baptists than with SBC folks. On the other hand, while the SBC folks are less likely to follower a preacher, they are more prone to follow the religious machine created by their denomination.
Neither are perfect. I prefer Independent Baptist, but I will shake the hand of any SBCer that I wish to. If that offends my Ind Baptist brethren, so be it.