Who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will.—Ephesians 1:11

[MB]

Just a heads-up ...

Are you aware that Paul was writing to
"the faithful" believers in the church at Ephesus?
All of those wonderful descriptions of who they were, etc.!

IMO, he was NOT really writing to the unfaithful believers!

Ditto for his letter to the Colossian church.

Please note that he gave warnings even to them
about the results of (habitual) sinning ...
to try to keep them on the straight and narrow.

Paul wrote;
2Co_12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

A messenger from Satan is called sin.
MB

 

[Alan Gross]

All nonsense
MB

There has to be some reason Spiritual Passages, by a Spiritual God, can't be Spiritually decerned.

Being Led of The Spirit of God is how The Bible says God's children Spiritually Love God and Worship Him, Giving Him Glory in Salvation, and The Honor of Being The One Who Wrote The Bible.

Because, they are Teachable, in The Spiritual Realities God Has Revealed, in Revelation, and the rest of The Bible.

 

[Dave G]

There has to be some reason Spiritual Passages, by a Spiritual God, can't be Spiritually decerned.

1 Corinthians 2:14.

 

[Dave G]

Exhaustive Determinism is as bogus as a three dollar bill.

I seem to see that statement made quite a bit.

God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass.

I agree, sir.
Ephesians 1:11, Daniel 4:35, etc.

God allows us to make plans within His boundaries.

Psalms 37:23
Proverbs 16:1
Proverbs 16:9
Proverbs 19:21
Proverbs 20:24
Jeremiah 10:23

God sets before us the choice of life or death, and begs us to choose life.

He set life or death before His covenant nation of Israel, under an earthly covenant of Law that included blessings for obedience, and cursings for disobedience:

" See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 in that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, [and that] ye shall not prolong [your] days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 that thou mayest love the Lord thy God, [and] that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he [is] thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them." ( Deuteronomy 30:15-20 )

Who was Moses speaking to in this passage?
The question is answered in the very next verse...

" And Moses went and spake these words unto all Israel." ( Deuteronomy 31:1 ).

The promise of the covenant of the Law to God's chosen nation of Israel...made to none other nation upon the earth.

Not to all men everywhere.
There is a context to be taken into account when using that passage, Van.

 

[Van]

I seem to see that statement made quite a bit.

I agree, sir.
Ephesians 1:11, Daniel 4:35, etc.

Psalms 37:23
Proverbs 16:1
Proverbs 16:9
Proverbs 19:21
Proverbs 20:24
Jeremiah 10:23


He set life or death before His covenant nation of Israel, under an earthly covenant of Law that included blessings for obedience, and cursings for disobedience:

" See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 in that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, [and that] ye shall not prolong [your] days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 that thou mayest love the Lord thy God, [and] that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he [is] thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them." ( Deuteronomy 30:15-20 )

Who was Moses speaking to in this passage?
The question is answered in the very next verse...

" And Moses went and spake these words unto all Israel." ( Deuteronomy 31:1 ).

The promise of the covenant of the Law to God's chosen nation of Israel...made to none other nation upon the earth.

Not to all men everywhere.
There is a context to be taken into account when using that passage, Van.

Dave, you have got to be kidding. How could the individuals that made up the Audience for Deuteronomy have chosen life or death, if total spiritual inability is true. Your doctrine is as bogus as a three dollar bill.

 

[MB]

I seem to see that statement made quite a bit.

I agree, sir.
Ephesians 1:11, Daniel 4:35, etc.

Psalms 37:23
Proverbs 16:1
Proverbs 16:9
Proverbs 19:21
Proverbs 20:24
Jeremiah 10:23


He set life or death before His covenant nation of Israel, under an earthly covenant of Law that included blessings for obedience, and cursings for disobedience:

" See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 in that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, [and that] ye shall not prolong [your] days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 that thou mayest love the Lord thy God, [and] that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he [is] thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them." ( Deuteronomy 30:15-20 )

Who was Moses speaking to in this passage?
The question is answered in the very next verse...

" And Moses went and spake these words unto all Israel." ( Deuteronomy 31:1 ).

The promise of the covenant of the Law to God's chosen nation of Israel...made to none other nation upon the earth.

Not to all men everywhere.
There is a context to be taken into account when using that passage, Van.

Excuse me sir but There is now no difference between the Jews and Gentiles. You seem to be saying there is in regards to Salvation. Christ told the woman at the well all she had to do was ask.for living water
MB

 

[Dave G]

Dave, you have got to be kidding.

That's not something I do with doctrine, Van.

How could the individuals that made up the Audience for Deuteronomy have chosen life or death, if total spiritual inability is true.

Because it wasn't a spiritual covenant.

It was an earthly one, and a temporary one.
They were choosing physical life and physical death...not spiritual.
Please read Hebrews 8.

They were not keeping it to gain eternal life.

That was never the function of the Law, yet the Pharisees misunderstood that.
It's function was and always has been to show the true believer, the child of the living God, that it cannot be kept...it is the schoolmaster to bring them to Christ ( Galatians 3:24 ).

To show them their dire need for a Saviour.

Eternal life has never been through the keeping of commandments, but has always been by the grace of God through faith, and by the blood of Jesus Christ.
Abraham knew that.

Please read Romans 4.

 

[Dave G]

Your doctrine is as bogus as a three dollar bill.

You're not "listening".

Again, the covenant was one of Law, not eternal life.
Quoting something that was spoken to the Jews by Moses and was only intended to bless them or curse them while here on earth in this life, is out of context, sir.
Deuteronomy did not apply to all men.

The Law of Moses only applied to Israel and the "strangers" ( Gentiles ) that joined themselves to them and agreed to keep the temporal, earthly covenant of God's blessings for obedience and cursings for disobedience.


Continuing to mix the Law and grace will only serve to confuse things,
and continuing to quote passages that do not apply to all men will never make them apply.

 

[Van]

That's not something I do with doctrine, Van.

Because it wasn't a spiritual covenant.

It was an earthly one, and a temporary one.
They were choosing physical life and physical death...not spiritual.
Please read Hebrews 8.

They were not keeping it to gain eternal life.

That was never the function of the Law, yet the Pharisees misunderstood that.
It's function was and always has been to show the true believer, the child of the living God, that it cannot be kept...it is the schoolmaster to bring them to Christ ( Galatians 3:24 ).

To show them their dire need for a Saviour.

Eternal life has never been through the keeping of commandments, but has always been by the grace of God through faith, and by the blood of Jesus Christ.
Abraham knew that.

Please read Romans 4.

Absurdity is posted to defend falsehood.
1) Note the change of subject, the lost can choose God but that is not spiritual.
2) Next the OT Saints did not gain approval through faith. Absurdity squared.
3) No one was regenerated before Christ, yet according to the bogus doctrine, all the OT saints were magically regenerated outside of Christ, rather than together with Christ. Absurdity times 3.

 

[Van]

You're not "listening".

Again, the covenant was one of Law, not eternal life.
Quoting something that was spoken to the Jews by Moses and was only intended to bless them or curse them while here on earth in this life, is out of context, sir.
Deuteronomy did not apply to all men.

The Law of Moses only applied to Israel and the "strangers" ( Gentiles ) that joined themselves to them and agreed to keep the temporal, earthly covenant of God's blessings for obedience and cursings for disobedience.

Continuing to mix the Law and grace will only serve to confuse things,
and continuing to quote passages that do not apply to all men will never make them apply.

I have mixed nothing, that is your bag.
You shall have no gods before you is not spiritual. Right. Folks, pay no attention to these absurd attempts to nullify scripture. They were given the choice and God indicated He wanted them to choose life. Choosing to Love the Lord is not spiritual!!! Absurdity infinity.

 

[Alan Gross]

Dave, you have got to be kidding. How could the individuals that made up the Audience for Deuteronomy have chosen life or death, if total spiritual inability is true. Your doctrine is as bogus as a three dollar bill.

Physical.

Be Blessed by following God, as Saved children of God,

or, disobey God, be cursed, and die.

The Audience of Israel got an earful of that in Deuteronomy.

 

[Alan Gross]

Absurdity is posted to defend falsehood.
1) Note the change of subject, the lost can choose God but that is not spiritual.
2) Next the OT Saints did not gain approval through faith. Absurdity squared.
3) No one was regenerated before Christ, yet according to the bogus doctrine, all the OT saints were magically regenerated outside of Christ, rather than together with Christ. Absurdity times 3.

1. The lost can choose to obey the Law, outwardly, as opposed to not obeying the Law, outwardly. That is not choosing God, or Eternal Life. They could not keep the whole Law.

2. Old Testament Saints were Born Again Believers in Jesus, Who was as a Lamb Slain, before the Foundation of The World.

3. Old Testament Saints where Preached the Law from God's Words, were convicted of their sin by The Holy Spirit, and Given Repentence Toward God and Faith in The Promised Messiah, that when He Sees The Blood, He would Pass Over them.

 

[Van]

1. The lost can choose to obey the Law, outwardly, as opposed to not obeying the Law, outwardly. That is not choosing God, or Eternal Life. They could not keep the whole Law.

2. Old Testament Saints were Born Again Believers in Jesus, Who was as a Lamb Slain, before the Foundation of The World.

3. Old Testament Saints where Preached the Law from God's Words, were convicted of their sin by The Holy Spirit, and Given Repentence Toward God and Faith in The Promised Messiah, that when He Sees The Blood, He would Pass Over them.

Three false claims, with no biblical support.
They put their faith in God and His promises.
No OT saint was born anew (regenerated) until after Christ arose from the dead, they all followed His in regeneration.
The Old Testament teaches of the Messiah, Jesus.

 

[Alan Gross]

Three false claims, with no biblical support.
They put their faith in God and His promises.
No OT saint was born anew (regenerated) until after Christ arose from the dead, they all followed His in regeneration.
The Old Testament teaches of the Messiah, Jesus.

There 'faith' was their 'works', then right?

 

[Van]

There 'faith' was their 'works', then right?

Yet another deflection, strawman, and absurdity.
Again, they try to equate "faith" with works, when scripture teaches "faith" is not works.
On and on post, but their arguments, like their doctrine is as bogus as a three dollar bill.
Romans 4:4-5 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

 

[Dave G]

Choosing to Love the Lord is not spiritual!!!

Choosing to love God is not something men want to do, in and of themselves ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 ).
It is a spiritual problem, not a mental one.

You shall have no gods before you is not spiritual.

It is a matter of the heart.
Obedience to God and His commands is not just a matter of doing it...it's a matter of wanting to do it.

It is a spiritual problem, not a physical problem.

 

[MB]

There 'faith' was their 'works', then right?

Paul wrote;
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
How is it that faith is a work. You've stated something is not true. If a man does not work yet his faith is counted for righteousness then his faith cannot be a work. Faith is not a work of man but of God. By your own false doctrine of total depravity man does not have any faith in God unless God gives it to Him.
MB

 

[Alan Gross]

So, 'believes' was their 'works', then right?

In The New Testament.

And 'faith' was their works when, "They put their faith in God", in The Old Testament.

Anyone 'saved', decides to 'save' themselves.

Either by working, by believing to make Jesus their Savior, or by working and having faith to make Jesus their Savior.

 

[Van]

Choosing to love God is not something men want to do, in and of themselves ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 ).
It is a spiritual problem, not a mental one.

It is a matter of the heart.
Obedience to God and His commands is not just a matter of doing it...it's a matter of wanting to do it.

It is a spiritual problem, not a physical problem.

The assertion the OT saints did not have spiritual ability to choose to love God, or that choosing to love God was not spiritual is simply a denial of obvious truth.

 

[Alan Gross]

The assertion the OT saints did not have spiritual ability to choose to love God, or that choosing to love God was not spiritual is simply a denial of obvious truth.

'Choosing' was the Old Testament sinner's way to get God to Love them and Forgive them, right?

They would choose to allow God to Worship them and give God permission to admit their Spiritual Power?