@John of Japan , I'm sure you ran across this. What do you think the "written by Timothy" at the end of Hebrews means? (And is it considered a part of Scripture?)
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Who Wrote Book of Hebrews
- Thread starter 37818
- Start date
Dude......I'm fixated. Why Luke instead of Timothy?
It seems that given Timothy is in the KJV, and TR, that there has to be some tradition that Timothy wrote it or dictated it.
But why is it a newer view?
I don't get it.
It seems that the debate would be over Timothy writing it vs recording it. But we don't typically see Timothy listed as a possibility either way.
The Early Church favored Clement, some thought Barnabas, some Luke, and particularly later on Paul or Apollos. But not Timothy.
Am I the only one who finds this strange?
I've seen/heard it suggested that due to his poor eyesight Paul had others do the writing for him, thus the possible significance of these statements:
21 The salutation of me Paul with mine own hand. 1 Cor 16
11 See with how large letters I write unto you with mine own hand. Gal 6
18 The salutation of me Paul with mine own hand. Remember my bonds. Grace be with you. Col 4
17 The salutation of me Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write. 2 Thess 3:17
19 I Paul write it with mine own hand, I will repay it: that I say not unto thee that thou owest to me even thine own self besides. Philemom
22 I Tertius, who write the epistle, salute you in the Lord. Ro 16:22
There are a few theories, and I have heard this one too. It is plausible.
I have heard also that it could have been Luke having been discipled by Paul.
I'm just not sure since Hebrews does not sound like Paul. And it really doesn't matter.
It is strange to me that some find it important that Paul wrote Hebrews. I don't really get why. Tradition?
I'm still thinking about Timothy listed as the writer in the KJV.
Oh....and I perfected my cheesecake! Being on short term disability until Jan has its benefits.
Many, like me, feel it was Paul's destiny to complete the word of God. Col 1:25
New American Bible
of which I am a minister in accordance with God’s stewardship given to me to bring to completion for you the word of God,
NET Bible
I became a servant of the church according to the stewardship from God--given to me for you--in order to complete the word of God,
I believe that passage is referring to Paul fully preaching God's Word to the people. (Also, I do not believe Paul's epistles were the last written Scripture).
What do you think about the comment about Timothy in Hebrews 13:25 (in the KJV)?
Hebrews 13:24–25 KJV : Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you. 25 Grace be with you all. Amen. Written to the Hebrews from Italy by Timothy.
(Pull out your hard copy)
Here's the KJV 1611:
What do you think this means?:
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
7 To all that are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Ro 1
22 I Tertius, who write the epistle, salute you in the Lord. Ro 16
My AV 'hard copy' doesn't have "Written to the Hebrews from Italy by Timothy." But I don't doubt that it was dictated to Timothy by Paul.
As noted by @37818 in post #4, it was a 'translator's note':
"The 1611 translation, the Apostle Paul authored the book of Hebrews.
The translator's notre:
¶ Written to the Hebrews from Italy by Timothy".
-------------------------
King James Bible
Grace be with you all. Amen.
Pink (post #14):
"In the last place, there is one other evidence that the apostle Paul penned the Hebrews’ Epistle which is still more conclusive. In 2 Thessalonians 3:17,18 we read, “The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every Epistle, so I write, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.” Now, if the reader will turn to the closing verse of each of the first thirteen Epistles of this apostle, it will be found that this “token” is given in each one. Then, if he will refer to the close of the Epistles of James, Peter, John and Jude, he will discover a noticeable absence of it. Thus it was a distinctive “token” of the apostle Paul. It served to identify his writings.
When, then at the close of Hebrews we read “grace be with you all” the proof is conclusive and complete that none other than Paul’s hand originally wrote this Epistle."
I believe it means that Tertius wrote down Paul's letter to the Christians in Rome.
The problem with Hebrews is those words are not identified as being Paul's words.
I have no issue with the claim that Timothy recorded the author's words. But why suppose it is Paul's words?
Paul used Tertius to record an epistle, but that epistle is written like the epistle we know Paul penned himself. Hebrews, on the other hand, does not appear (by structure and theology) to be written by Paul. Another issue is Paul describes himself as the Apostle to the Gentiles (Hebrews is uniquely Jewish).
But it could be Paul. There is simply no evidence that it is. The Early Church didn't think it was. But it could have been.
My question is why Timothy is not normal identified as the writer (or recorder) given that the KJV states he was.
It seems at least Timothy would be suggested the most.
I believe it was a note, but mainly wondered what KJVO people thought of it because that note made it into the KJV. It is in the 1611 edition at least to the 1900 edition (the one I referenced).
That leads to other questions - if the KJV was wrong to include that ending (it is in the TR) then how many extra-biblical notes could have made it into the KJV?
Personally, I believe it was an added note somewhere in transcription as it is not in earlier manuscripts. I also believe the writer of Hebrews is known only to God as God would have been able to have the writer identify himself (like with all Pauline epistles) had He wanted the identity known.
Again, Pink (post #14"
"Should it be asked, Why is the apostle Paul’s name omitted from the preface to this Epistle? a threefold answer may be suggested. First, it is addressed, primarily, to converted “Hebrews,” and Paul was not characteristically or essentially an apostle to them: he was the apostle to the Gentiles. Second, the inscribing of his name at the beginning of this Epistle would, probably, have prejudiced many Jewish readers against it (cf. Acts 21:27,28; 22:17-22). Third, the supreme purpose of the Epistle is to exalt Christ, and in this Epistle He is the “Apostle,” see Hebrews 3:1. Therefore the impropriety of Paul making mention of his own apostleship....""
Is it important to you that Paul did not address the Hebrews?
Peter (to his Jewish audience) affirmed that Paul had indeed written to them:
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote unto you; 2 Pe 3
I believe Timothy could have wrote down Paul's letter to the Hebrews.
I agree with the idea that the final line means that Timothy was the scribe, the amanuensis. That was a common practice back then. And as kyredneck points out, Paul had a practice of signing "with my own hand," suggesting a scribe.
However, UBS 4 rev. leaves it out, and Metzger's Textual Commentary lists variations from different mss. Robinson-Pierpont and Hodges-Farstad leave it out. Even the Scrivener TR leaves it out in the Trinitarian Bible Society edition, but the Stephanus TR does have it.
At any rate, I don't think it is part of Scripture.
37818
Well-Known Member
My guess would be, if we understand ". . . Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty; . . ." to mean from prison. It could suggest Paul had authored Hebrews from prison and Timothy was with him to transcribe it for him.
37818
Well-Known Member
Hebrews authorship to Paul and the attributing it's transcription to Timothy is a written tradition which would have come from an oral tradition. Our 66 books of our Bible is an oral tradition which became written as the books of our Bible.
Those books being God's word handed down copies and translated, would have been known by the original recipients to be God's word.
And those of us believing them know now ourselves. Romans 8:16.
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I disagree with Pink
First, Paul describing himself as the Apostle to the Gentiles is a good reason to question a Pauline authorship, but it would not exclude Paul from writing to any Christian congregation or group.
Second, in his epistles Paul never conceded to prejudice. In fact, Paul often relied on his former "of man" to strengthen his testimony. Also, Paul in his epistles Paul writes specifically under his authority as an apostle (pointing to his version). All of this is packing in Hebrews.
Third, the supreme purpose of ALL Scripture is to exalt Christ. Pink is saying things that sound good to the ear, but are not really relevant to the topic (he is not trying to persuade but to hold those who believe a specific thing in check).
The biggest question is why, if God wanted us to know the writer of Hebrews, He failed so miserably when He was very clear in the Pauline epistles, in John's letters, and in Peters words?
I believe we are to stand behind what Scripture teaches and stop where Scripture stops, as best we can.
Do I believe Paul wrote Hebrews? No. Hebrews does not fit into what we know of Paul. But that is my opinion. Just like everyone here I do not know who wrote Hebrews because the Bible does not say who wrote Hebrews and I wasn't present when it was composed (I'm not that old
).