Whose Son is YHVH, the Christ?

[Moriah]

That is the only reason he can say "we shall see him as he is" because He has seen him as He is and as he left he will return. His readers never saw him.

John has not seen him in his glorified body either because John says, "It is not known what we will be and we shall see him as he is. Your reasoning makes absolutely no sense.

Of course it is not yet made known because they are still yet in their corruption and its consequences and have NEVER KNOWN what it is to be without it - that is yet future.

First, you say John knows, and then you say it is not yet made known because they are still in their corruption. Again, just complete nonsense that you speak with twisting and contradictions. The Bible tells us that it is not yet made knows what we will, but when Jesus comes we will see Jesus and be like him. If Jesus has flesh and looks exactly as a man, then what is so hidden about that? If we will look exactly as we do now only not corruptible, then what is there not to know and understand about that?

So you are interpreting this passage to contradict Paul's passage in 1 Cor. 15:42-44 where he tells us what kind of change we can expect.

Paul is not describing everything! If Paul was describing everything then why does John say it has not been made known?

Paul says the corruption, weakness, dishonor, mortal consequences will be REPLACED by incorruption, power, honor, and immortality. So, they will not know exactly how their resurrection body will look until the resurrection but they do know they will be LIKE HIM - without corruption, without weakness, without dishonor, without mortality - it is just that simple - so simply you must trip over it to miss it!

Again, you said Jesus looks like he does when he was on the earth. You said he looks the same and still even has flesh. If that is the way Jesus looks, then I will look exactly as I do, and everyone will look exactly as they do when they are raised. IF WE ALL WILL LOOK EXACTLY AS WE DO WHEN WE DIED, THEN IT HAS BEEN MADE KNOWN WHAT WE WILL BE. However, the Bible says it is not yet known. You have no idea what we will look like because it will not be what we were. All we will know is that it will not be corruptible.

 

[Moriah]

Moriah and you are incorrect. A Glorified body is a physical body with Glorified attributes. Its not just a spiritual body.

You go against the Lord Jesus Christ.

Everyone,

Read here what Thinkingstuff says. He said, “It is not just a spiritual body.”

However, the written Word of God says, “it is raised a spiritual body.” See 1 Corinthians 15:44.

You have been exposed Thinkingstuff.

 

[Moriah]

It is clear that you Seve are a gnostic. You hold gnostic believes such as polytheism that is unified in council Valentius would have been proud. You also hold. You also hold in a soley spiritual resurrection of the body which is also a gnostic point of view. Gnostics generally heald that the Matter of which the universe was made is inherently evil and that only the spirit was good. Therefore Jesus wasn't in actuality a human being but divine and seemed to be human just as he seemed to suffer but not in reality. You say you get this from scripture alone and from that you have lead yourself in error. However, I don't see how you believe Jesus rose only spiritually from the dead from scripture alone as it shows Jesus actually ate food, Thomas actually felt the holes in Jesus hands and side.

You say you do not understand how I can say Jesus rose only spiritually from the dead, you do not understand how I can say that because you have no understanding.
Jesus rose in his physical body.
When Jesus went to heaven, he was changed in the twinkling of the eye.
You confuse the words “spiritual body” to mean only our spirits, but the Bible says spiritual BODY, that is NOT the same as just saying “spirit.”

If you really want to be gnostic there is a group of writings just for you found in Egypt. Why do you even believe that the bible has the correct books in it? Certainly there is no inspired table of Contents and since you don't believe what the current text themselves actually say on the matter but have convinced yourself that there are three gods and Jesus rose spiritually from the dead you might as well seek other authorities other than the canon of scripture. Certainly you can change the canon to meet your own needs.

You do not like me because I go against the false Catholic religion.

 

[The Biblicist]

John has not seen him in his glorified body .

You either have a reading problem or a comprehension problem but a problem nevertheless. John did see him in his resurrected glorified body and there is great deal of Biblical evidence to prove it.

1. He was present when Christ told the apostles that his resurrection body was "flesh".

2. He was present when Christ ascended in that SAME BODY into heaven and angels told them explicitly as they saw hime go so he would return and they saw him go in the SAME body - Acts 1

either because John says, "It is not known what we will be and we shall see him as he is

The term "known" refers to EXPERIENTIAL knowledge (ginosko) and there can be no PERSONAL experiential knowledge until one PERSONALLY EXPERIENCES it. However, he clearly states he does know THEOLOGICALLY they will be like Christ's resurrection body which Paul clearly defines in 1 Cor. 15:42-44. He does know their body will be without corruption, without dishonor, without weakness and without mortality. There is an element which they cannot know and that is at what stage of life their body will take on appearance.

First, you say John knows, and then you say it is not yet made known because they are still in their corruption.

He simply denies experiential knowlege but does not deny theological knowledge as that is spelled out by Paul in 1 Cor. 15:42-44. I know this is too difficult for you to understand.


The rest of your post just repeats the same nonsense!

 

[Moriah]

Furthermore, the term "raised" makes no sense unless it has reference to that body placed "down" in the ground. The term resurrection" means to "rise up" and you cannot bring up what never went down.

Watch, Biblicist is going to be exposed for more error too. Please read on...

Biblicist says, “The term raised makes no sense unless it has reference to that body placed down in the ground. The term resurrection means to rise up and you cannot bring up what never went down.”
Readers,

Biblicist has no wisdom and knowledge. The Bible says WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED, even those alive at Jesus’ coming. Yet, with Biblicist's teachings, we will not be changed at the resurrection if we do not die and buried in the ground. Biblicists goes against Jesus.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Bible says WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED, even those alive at Jesus’ coming. Yet, with Biblicist's teachings, we will not be changed at the resurrection if we do not die and buried in the ground. Biblicists goes against Jesus.

If Christ came today, there would be approximately 6000 years of saints dead and buried in comparison with those presently alive. THINK! The vast majority of saints are in the grave and the term "resurrection" and "raised" are senseless terms if it does not apply to what has been put down in the ground.

Those who are living have the SAME CHANGE made to them as those in the ground. The only difference is the dead COME OUT OF THE GRAVE whereas the living need no resurrection.

BTW you are lying again! I have NEVER EVER said that every child of God must die first in order to be changed as described in 1 Cor. 15:42-44. I dare you to quote me saying that at any time anywhere on this forum. Stop lying!

 

[Moriah]

Dear Independent Readers,

Moriah is correct on the specifics / contentions below.

Christ was NOT in the FLESH after his resurrection but Glorified Body.... the same Glorified body he had when he apppeared in person (physically) unto Abraham, Isaac among many others in the old testament....... in fact, even during the time when he wrestled with Jacob. Rememeber, the Son was the Great I AM of old... the only God physically formed for us to see and witness.

Moriah is also correct to say that NO flesh and blood can "enter" (paraphasing) or "inherit" the kindom of God...

If you didn't inherit the Kingdom of God to begin with.... then you have no right to be there.... you can NOT enter the place since it is strictly the place for those who have uncorruptable or Glorified bodies (Holy) only.

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Don't be deceived!!! Pray for more wisdom and understanding.

:godisgood:

Thank you my friend.

You have stood with me in the Truth, and I with you.

They should pray for wisdom and understanding. God says, “If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.”

However, God does not listen to sinners but only those who do the will of God. See John 9:31.

Jesus says he reveals himself to those who get his teachings and obeys them. John 14:21.

James 3:17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.

I believe from the scriptures, that they would have to repent for being in a false religion and going against the Truth,that they should obey Jesus’ teachings, and then they should pray for wisdom and understanding.

If they do not do those things, then I believe we will constantly be slandered and lied about here.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Bible says WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED, even those alive at Jesus’ coming. Yet, with Biblicist's teachings, we will not be changed at the resurrection if we do not die and buried in the ground. Biblicists goes against Jesus.

Moriah is lying again. I have never restricted the "change" to merely the dead but have always applied it equally to the living. The term "resurrection" and "raised" has to do with those in the grave (yet he denies that as he denies anything in the grave will be "resurrected" or "raised"). However, what is resurrected will also be "changed" as described in 1 Cor. 15:42-44.

The living also will be "changed" as described in 1 Cor. 15:42-44. The only difference between the dead and the living is that the same processes now at work in the living have not yet concluded in physical death whereas they have in those in the grave.

It is that principle of death and its processes that are "changed" in both the bodies of those "raised" out from the graves and in those who are still living with the principle of death and its processes at work in them.

 

[Moriah]

Moriah is lying again. The term "resurrection" and "raised" has to do with those in the grave (yet he denies that as he denies anything in the grave will be "resurrected" or "raised"). However, what is resurrected will be "changed" as described in 1 Cor. 15:42-44.

You do not speak the truth about what I say. Show where I say anything in the grave will not be resurrected.

The living also will be "changed" as described in 1 Cor. 15:42-44. The only difference between the dead and the living is that the same processes now at work in the living have not yet concluded in physical death whereas they have in those in the grave.

It is that principle of death and its processes that are "changed" in both the bodies of those "raised" out from the graves and in those who are still living with the principle of death and its processes at work in them.

Biblicist is trying to retract what he said in error, that in itself is good, but he lies when he does it, which of course, is not good.

Here again is what Biblicist said:

Furthermore, the term "raised" makes no sense unless it has reference to that body placed "down" in the ground. The term resurrection" means to "rise up" and you cannot bring up what never went down.

 

[The Biblicist]

Moriah is lying again. I have never restricted the "change" to merely the dead but have always applied it equally to the living. The term "resurrection" and "raised" has to do with those in the grave (yet he denies that as he denies anything in the grave will be "resurrected" or "raised"). However, what is resurrected will also be "changed" as described in 1 Cor. 15:42-44.

The living also will be "changed" as described in 1 Cor. 15:42-44. The only difference between the dead and the living is that the same processes now at work in the living have not yet concluded in physical death whereas they have in those in the grave.

It is that principle of death and its processes that are "changed" in both the bodies of those "raised" out from the graves and in those who are still living with the principle of death and its processes at work in them.

Notice that neither Seve or Moriah ever deal with the Biblical evidence presented by me. They consistently ignore the evidence provided against their intepretations. They consistenly misrepresent what I have said. They consistently misrepresent the scriptures they perversely use. Their simply is no honesty or objectivity in their argumentations.

 

[The Biblicist]

You do not speak the truth about what I say. Show where I say anything in the grave will not be resurrected.

Surely you jest? What do you think this whole debate has been about? If you had admitted that the dead bodies in the grave are raised and glorified there would be no debate between us.

You have admitted that the body of Christ which was put in the grave is the body he was seen in after the resurrection but you denied this resurrected body is in heaven and yet all the Apostles were eyewitnesses of that very same resurrected body ascending into heaven and were eyewitnesses of the angels claiming the same Jesus and the same way they saw him depart is the same Jesus and same way they would see him return:

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

If he had left in ANOTHER body they would not have recognized him!

Biblicist is trying to retract what he said in error, that in itself is good, but he lies when he does it, which of course, is not good.

You sir are a two faced liar! I have NEVER denied either. Produce where I have ever stated that all must die and be buried in order to be "changed"! You are a liar and the proof is that you nor any reader on this thread will ever be able to produce that statement. You are a liar!

Here again is what Biblicist said:

Furthermore, the term "raised" makes no sense unless it has reference to that body placed "down" in the ground. The term resurrection" means to "rise up" and you cannot bring up what never went down.

Here is proof that Moriah is a liar! This statement has not one word that all must die before they can be "changed"! This statment says the term "raised" can only refer to the dead in the grave. This statement says the term "resurrection" can only refer to the dead in the grave.

This is such a silly and stupid attempt to twist my words that it only demonstrastes why neither Seve or Moriah have enough common sense to even be in a rational debate.

 

[Moriah]

You have been exposed Biblicist.

No bombardment of posts by you will hide the Truth.

Anyone who can see, they will be able to see that you speak falseness.

I pray that even one reader will be strengthened in the Truth.

 

[The Biblicist]

You have been exposed Biblicist.

No bombardment of posts by you will hide the Truth.

Anyone who can see, they will be able to see that you speak falseness.

I pray that even one reader will be strengthened in the Truth.

Don't you have a conscience? Don't you ever get tired of lying and misrepresenting others?

Anyone with two grains of common sense can read your quotation of my words and see you are lying! It so obvious!

 

[Yeshua1]

You have been exposed Biblicist.

No bombardment of posts by you will hide the Truth.

Anyone who can see, they will be able to see that you speak falseness.

I pray that even one reader will be strengthened in the Truth.

You seem to deny that God is a Truine being..

You seem to deny we are saved by grace alone faith alone

You deny the physical bodily resurrection of jesus

Why should you be seen as even being a Christian?

 

[Moriah]

You seem to deny that God is a Truine being..

You seem to deny we are saved by grace alone faith alone

You deny the physical bodily resurrection of jesus

Why should you be seen as even being a Christian?

I only speak the Word of God.

I say they are three and that they are the same.

I do not deny we are saved by faith, but the Bible says, "faith alone" does NOT save.

I do NOT deny a bodily resurrection. The Bible says we will have a spiritual BODY, that is not just saying a 'spirit', but a spiritual Body. When a seed is buried in the ground, does the exact thing that is buried come up? No. What is buried does not look the same as what comes up.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

None of that nonsense. The doctrine of sola scriptura is not the source of their error. I have demonstrated from the scripture alone that their view is not even taught in scripture.

Answer these questions. Did Seve claim to arrive at his conclusions using Scriptures alone? Yes or no? Did Seve lead himself in error? Yes or no?

Now as you know scriptures don't interpret themselves and thus rely on the ability of the interpreter to correctly interpret it. Seve's ability is lacking.

Though I did say even relying on scripture alone I don't see how he came to his conclusion as the scriptures by the plain reading of the texts reveal the physicalness of Jesus' resurrection.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You go against the Lord Jesus Christ.

Everyone,

Read here what Thinkingstuff says. He said, “It is not just a spiritual body.”

However, the written Word of God says, “it is raised a spiritual body.” See 1 Corinthians 15:44.

You have been exposed Thinkingstuff.

I have been exposed to revealing the truth of the scriptures that Jesus rose physically from the dead. And you have clearly taken 1 Cor 15:44 out of context. There is nothing in that verse to make one believe that only a ghost was raised. It clearly shows how you misunderstand "Spiritual". The fact is Paul mentions a body was raised. A natural body meaning one open to corruption, decay and sin also at times referred to as flesh. Our natural state is one of sin and death. The body that was raised is Spiritual which means that it isn't corrupt it doesn't decay it doesn't sin. When you read the whole chapter of 1 Cor 15 there is no other idea than the resurrection inlcudes actual bodies even as Adam was created with a physical body! You like Seve hold to a gnostic belief.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You say you do not understand how I can say Jesus rose only spiritually from the dead, you do not understand how I can say that because you have no understanding.

Are you once again holding to a gnostic view that there is a secret knowldege which must be attain for salvation? Why even read the bible if you are such a gnostic?

Jesus rose in his physical body.

Yes he did. Jesus rose physically from the dead in a glorified body and incorruptable body. Which btw still has the scars and holes from his passion.

When Jesus went to heaven, he was changed in the twinkling of the eye.

What? You are adding to scriptures. Jesus ascended to heaven by his own power in his own body to sit at the right hand of the father. He didn't change. His body with which by his own power he raised already demonstrated his glorified state. He could move through walls and suddenly appear somewhere. He didn't become a pure ghost.

You confuse the words “spiritual body” to mean only our spirits

No. That is what you are doing. The "spiritual body" Paul speaks of is an incorruptable body.

You do not like me because I go against the false Catholic religion.

Moriah, I don't know you to know whether I like you or not. I vehemently disagree with your theological perspective. As far as I know you may be a very likable person.

 

[Yeshua1]

Answer these questions. Did Seve claim to arrive at his conclusions using Scriptures alone? Yes or no? Did Seve lead himself in error? Yes or no?

Now as you know scriptures don't interpret themselves and thus rely on the ability of the interpreter to correctly interpret it. Seve's ability is lacking.

Though I did say even relying on scripture alone I don't see how he came to his conclusion as the scriptures by the plain reading of the texts reveal the physicalness of Jesus' resurrection.

Did Joseph Smith use the bible at all? Did pastor russell?

And you do know that a natural man cannot receive the spiritual things of the bible, as it seems foolish to him?

That the ignorant and unlearned distort the letters of paul, and the rest of sacred scripture?

The fault is NOT in the Bible, nor the Spirit, but person reading it!

 

[The Biblicist]

Answer these questions. Did Seve claim to arrive at his conclusions using Scriptures alone? Yes or no? Did Seve lead himself in error? Yes or no?

A person can claim ANYTHING but that does not make it so! However, you are treating it as it is not only so but the root of his error is that the believes final in authority. That is simply just bogus reasoning.

Now as you know scriptures don't interpret themselves and thus rely on the ability of the interpreter to correctly interpret it. Seve's ability is lacking.

The problem is not in the sufficiency of the scriptures to provide all that is sufficient for truth but in Seve as an interpretter of the scriptures. If 2 Tim. 3:16-17 means anything it means at minimum that the scriptures are SUFFICIENT for doctrine, instruction, correction, reproof or it means NOTHING at all.