Whose Son is YHVH, the Christ?

[The Biblicist]

Are you NOT understanding what you have been reading? Have I not asserted before that the Son was brought forth physically into this world at the beginning of Genesis…. before the world was?

Who then are the witnesses you say that Isaiah 43:10 says were PRESENT and VIEWING that event "BEFORE THE WORLD WAS"???

Did you not read that YHVH, himself, had appeared and represented his invisible God Father on several occasions in the Old Testament?

Another straw man argument. No one on this forum denies that The Son is the VISIBLE representative of the Godhead. Again, have you ever been introduced to the word "Theophany"????

IF no man hath seen God Father at any time, then, the Lord YHVH could hot have been the invisible God Father but the Son himself - the only God physically formed for us to see and witness.

What you fail to understand is the term YHVH is applied EQUALLY to all three Divine Personages of the Godhead and that is so very simple to prove. Indeed, the quotations I have already given prove it is equally applied to both the Father and the Son.

What do you mean if I've been introduce to the term...."Theophany"? Did you not understand that it is only the Son... who can represent the Father... being the express image of his person physically?

Theophanies are no more transformations into actual physical substance than the appearances of angels are transformations into actual physical substance (Heb. 13:1). Both are mere physical in APPEARANCE only. It is not a about PHYSICAL MATTER or PHYSICAL SUBSTANCE with either angels or theophanies but merely PHYSICAL APPEARANCES. Furthermore the Theophanies are not always the same in form or appearance.

Come on now Biblicist…. smell the coffee and try to argue according to my position and not your distorted assumption of my views…. For a change.:BangHead:

Your view is not even consistent with itself much less the Biblical revelation and that is easy to see and to prove. Who are those witnesses in Isaiah 43:10? How could they be present and viewing YHVH being formed as a God "before the world was"? Why is YHVH used to identify the Creator of heaven and earth when you deny YHVH created but only "made" the world but the Father created? Why is YHVH said to be everlasting without beginning, as in the scriptures already presented unto you? Why does YHVH repeatedly say He knows of other God except himself if He is "formed" a god by God the Father? These are only a few of the problems your position has to deal with.

 

[Moriah]

No, Jesus was saying that it was himself whom their forefather saw and were glad / rejoiced seeing his day in the Old Testament.... not his Father..... also claiming ..... BEFORE Abraham was, I AM.... Jesus Son of God.

Jesus said Abraham saw his day and was glad. This is about all are alive to God, even those who have died. This is about Abraham living in the spirit saw Jesus’ day, Jesus’ day, his coming to earth.

Angels longed to look. This shows it is about Jesus coming to earth.

1 Peter 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

Jesus reveals himself to those who obey.

John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

The people Jesus was speaking to, they did not recognize Jesus as God because they do not obey God. They do not know God because they do not obey God.

 

[Moriah]

Revelation 19
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, THAT NO MAN KNEW, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.


Could it be, yes, I think it is that the new name of Jesus is the name of God revealed!

 

[Seve]

Your view is not even consistent with itself much less the Biblical revelation and that is easy to see and to prove. Who are those witnesses in Isaiah 43:10? How could they be present and viewing YHVH being formed as a God "before the world was"?

Why is YHVH used to identify the Creator of heaven and earth when you deny YHVH created but only "made" the world but the Father created? Why is YHVH said to be everlasting without beginning as the scriptures presented unto you? Why does YHVH repeatedly say He knows of other God except himself if He is "formed" a god by God the Father? These are only a few of the problems your position has to deal with.

Once again your questions and premises are distorted…. based only on your own made up story and stupid assumption on your part. How could there be “witnesses” before the world was? Is this not stupid made up premise on your part?

Come on now Biblicist.... how much more blatant and malicious distortion you are wiilling to do.... to cover up your flawed understanding of the Scripture.

:BangHead:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

While the cited text Rev. 3:12 speaks of the Son having a “new name” for himself specifically (see above in red color)…. the question is….
...where do you read anywhere in the Scripture (cite the text please) that suggest that the Father of our Lord Christ would also have a “NEW NAME” as you assume it to be???

I have just explained though you have actually ignored it. A new name is not a hidden name its new. And as God reveals himself to us humanity applies new titles to God. Initially God was just known as Elohim and as time passes people give him new titles (names) as he shows more of himself, thus Adoni comes when people understand his Lordship and so on an so forth. Thus Jesus Christ being God who is spoken of in Revelation will aquire for himself a new name by his actions.

Of course, there’s no such Scripture to suggest that, correct? Simply because... the assumption of the Father having "new name" is meant only to defend your religious view of one numeric God..... not supported by the Scripture..

That is what happens when you interpret scripture on your own! You misread scriptures all together. Of Course scripture supports the Trinity.

Matt. 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"
1 Cor. 12:4-6, "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons."
2 Cor. 13:14, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."

And verse that support a singular God and no other

Is 43:10 “You are My witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
So that you may know and believe Me
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me.

And

Is 44:6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.

The bible is clear about its Trinitarian Doctrine. You hold a gnostic interpretation of scripture.

And to my baptist friends this is exactly what I'm talking about what happens when you are the sole authority when it comes to interpretation of Scripture. So much for sola scriptura.

In fact, who are the two among the three mentioned here - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - do you consider not God or pagan gods?

Its a poor conclusion that you have come to when God the Father is Glorified so is the son and the Holy Spirit. So of course the Son and the spirit are both glorified as is the Holy Spirit. Context is everything.
I don't deny scriptures what I refute is your interpretation which has no bases in the text but in your own faulted interpretation.

 

[Seve]

While the cited text Rev. 3:12 speaks of the Son having a “new name” for himself specifically (see above in red color)…. the question is….
...where do you read anywhere in the Scripture (cite the text please) that suggest that the Father of our Lord Christ would also have a “NEW NAME” as you assume it to be???

I have just explained though you have actually ignored it. A new name is not a hidden name its new. And as God reveals himself to us humanity applies new titles to God. Initially God was just known as Elohim and as time passes people give him new titles (names) as he shows more of himself, thus Adoni comes when people understand his Lordship and so on an so forth. Thus Jesus Christ being God who is spoken of in Revelation will aquire for himself a new name by his actions.

No, you did not explain anything with regards to the real issue that was brought forth to you. In fact, you continue to ignore it. Now, let us look at the text again….

Revelation 3
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Now, answer the following simple questions…..

Who's the Speaker of the above cited text ref. Rev. 3:12?

Who's the Speaker referring to... as his God, if thou can tell?

If the Speaker has another God, how many God are they?

By the way, you also try to ignore explaining this.... contrary to your religious assumption.

Based on my Biblical understanding..... God is one (echad) in unity.... NOT... in number.

in fact, the Father and the Son are both separate entities, therefore, both are collective ONE God (Echad) in unity.

John17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with THINE OWN SELF with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Based on the Scripture above.... accordingly....

....The Father has his ownself Being....

.... the Son has his ownself Being as well...... even before the world was .... even before he was sent into this world and became flesh.

I will ask you again to try to refute the above assertion I made on John 17:5 if you can.... If can not, please let me know.

 

[The Biblicist]

Once again your questions and premises are distorted…. based only on your own made up story and stupid assumption on your part. How could there be “witnesses” before the world was? Is this not stupid made up premise on your part?

Come on now Biblicist.... how much more blatant and malicious distortion you are wiilling to do.... to cover up your flawed understanding of the Scripture.

:BangHead:

Isaiah 43:10 does not teach that YHVH was "formed" because YHVH is not the subject of the verb "formed." The subject of the verb "formed" is "No God" and that is a reference to some other God in addition to him "besides me." He is asserting his ETERNAL EXISTENCE as God. Just as Paul did when he said of Christ:

Col. 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

No God existed before him and no God existed after him. Isaiah repeats this same truth even using the very same phrase "ye are...my witnesses" and makes that crystal clear to anyone who can read English:

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 43:10~11 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD (YHVH), and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. v11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

These texts are as plain as the nose on your face! There is no other God in existence but YHVH and YHVH is the same name for all three Divine Persons of the Godhead:

Isa, 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

There are TWO in verse 6 speaking and both claiming to be YHVH. Note the possessive pronoun "and HIS redeemer the LORD." The nearest antecedent to that pronoun is "the LORD, the King of Israel. Here is absolute proof that YHVH is equally ascribed to BOTH persons and there are TWO persons here.

 

[Seve]

Isahiah 43:10 Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared [it]? ye [are] even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, [there is] no God; I know not [any].

Dear Readers,

Jesus is YHVH himself -- the Son of the invisible God. He is the Physical Image of the invisible Almighty God Father, the Spirit of Love…. which NO man hath seen at anytime nor his name have been revealed to anyone at this time.

Of course, contrary to Biblicist flawed understanding of the Scripture….. YHVH of old, the Son of God, is correct to claim that there’s no other God besides him… as shown above cited Scriptures - simply because, technically.... the Son is our God.… from the beginning; from everlasting.... as also documented and revealed in the New Testament below….

Insertions are mine for presentation:

1Corinthians 11
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ (the Son of God); and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God (his own Father).

The invisible God is fully manifested in His only Begotten Son -- the FIRST BORN of every creature. Therefore, in reality, the Son is our God, our own Father, as far as we are concerned -- THY MAKER -- the head of every man.

Jesus Name in the OT is listed in Gen 2:4 (Heb-Adonai YHWH). He is called LORD God by the King James translators. He is the God of the Jews, and the ONLY God ever FORMED, Physically. If you have seen Him….. you have seen the Father.

When God spoke the "WORD" in the beginning and said, LET THERE BE LIGHT, YHVH, the Son, came forth from the invisible Spirit of Love into this Physical World and became the Only God ever Physically formed or that ever will be Physically formed for us to see.

He was Not Created, since He was already God himself (John 1:1). The Son was the source of the True Light (physical) in the beginning, ref. Gen. 1:3 (ALPHA), just as He will be the literal Light of Heaven in the end (OMEGA), which has No need for the Sun nor Moon to shine in it.

Without the Son (YHVH), was Not anything made that was made, because Everything Physical was made by the Physical Hands of the Only God, the Only Image, the Only Begotten, of the Spirit of the invisible Almighty God Father.

When we get to Heaven, we will truly understand that the Son is YHVH himself, our God, for In Him dwelleth ALL of the fullness of the Godhead, Bodily (physically).

:godisgood:

 

[The Biblicist]

Dear Readers,

Notice that Seve could not respond to the passages below. He simply ignored them and reasserted his theory which has no Biblical basis at all. He is quick to attack me personally but incapable of dealing with the Biblical data I provided. The below scriptures do not need my comments as they self-evidently destroy his whole theory.

Isaiah 43:10 does not teach that YHVH was "formed" because YHVH is not the subject of the verb "formed." The subject of the verb "formed" is "No God" and that is a reference to some other God in addition to him "besides me." He is asserting his ETERNAL EXISTENCE as God. Just as Paul did when he said of Christ:

Col. 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

No God existed before him and no God existed after him. Isaiah repeats this same truth even using the very same phrase "ye are...my witnesses" and makes that crystal clear to anyone who can read English:

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 43:10~11 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD (YHVH), and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. v11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

These texts are as plain as the nose on your face! There is no other God in existence but YHVH and YHVH is the same name for all three Divine Persons of the Godhead:

Isa, 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

There are TWO in verse 6 speaking and both claiming to be YHVH. Note the possessive pronoun "and HIS redeemer the LORD." The nearest antecedent to that pronoun is "the LORD, the King of Israel. Here is absolute proof that YHVH is equally ascribed to BOTH persons and there are TWO persons here.

 

[Moriah]

He was Not Created, since He was already God himself (John 1:1). The Son was the source of the True Light (physical) in the beginning, ref. Gen. 1:3 (ALPHA), just as He will be the literal Light of Heaven in the end (OMEGA), which has No need for the Sun nor Moon to shine in it.

What would be so wrong to say Jesus is God the visible created by God the invisible?

Does this scripture not say that very thing?

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Then all things made through Jesus, God the visible.

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

 

[Moriah]

Dear Readers,

Notice that Seve could not respond to the passages below. He simply ignored them and reasserted his theory which has no Biblical basis at all. He is quick to attack me personally but incapable of dealing with the Biblical data I provided. The below scriptures do not need my comments as they self-evidently destroy his whole theory.

I do not believe you Biblicist.

 

[The Biblicist]

What would be so wrong to say Jesus was God the visible created by God the invisible?

God created the FLESH of Jesus. God did not create Jesus the visible God because prior to the incarnation He existed as God and He manifested himself visibly toward men in various theophanies. Isaiah 43:10 does not teach what Seve is asserting it teaches. The grammar denies it. The immediate context denies it. Isaiah uses the very same termonology "ye are...my witnesses" in another text and explains exactly what he means. He does not mean God "formed" another God who is YHVH! He is simply asserting His eternal existence as God. If there is no God formed before him and if there is no God formed after him and if he knows of NO GOD but HIMSELF that is a denial that he was "FORMED" at all!

Does this scripture not say that very thing?

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

As you say DON'T ADD YOUR OWN WORDS! The text does not say or mean "firstCREATED" or "firstCREATURE" but "firstBORN"! Now go look up the usage by God of "firstborn" throughout the book of Genesis and you will see it does not refer to the first son actually born but to the birthright or heir of all a man's property which was never Cain but the second born Abel, never Ishmael but the second born Isaac, never Esau but the second born Jacob, etc., etc. It means God's righful heir of all creation because it is rightly his because he CREATED IT for his own glory.

 

[Moriah]

God created the FLESH of Jesus. God did not create Jesus the visible God because prior to the incarnation He existed as God and He manifested himself visibly toward men in various theophanies.

If Jesus existed as God, then you are saying Jesus did not exist before he came to earth, but the scriptures say Jesus existed with God before he came to earth.

John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

How else do you think Jesus was God and existed with God, if not created by God before all things?

As you say DON'T ADD YOUR OWN WORDS! The text does not say or mean "firstCREATED" or "firstCREATURE" but "firstBORN"! Now go look up the usage by God of "firstborn" throughout the book of Genesis and you will see it does not refer to the first son actually born but to the birthright or heir of all a man's property which was never Cain but the second born Abel, never Ishmael but the second born Isaac, never Esau but the second born Jacob, etc., etc. It means God's righful heir of all creation because it is rightly his because he CREATED IT for his own glory.

First born is first born.
First born over all creation, over all creation, it is simple. Why do you want to change it from all creation to mean over all Christians?

 

[The Biblicist]

I do not believe you Biblicist.

What a surprise! I am shocked! But why not, both of you have a common spirit.

 

[Moriah]

Hello Seve,

I would like to discuss this more with you. I have been thinking of these things and am glad to study them with you.

Since Jesus is and was the visible image of God, even before the creation of the world and Jesus is God’s Word, literally God’s Word, tell me what you think then about God’s voice being heard when Jesus was baptized, and again when Jesus transfigured and God spoke from the cloud.

The invisible God must have made His voice (words) heard now without Jesus the Word. Is that biblical to you?

In addition, what do you think about Stephen seeing the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God? Do you think Stephen saw the invisible God?

 

[The Biblicist]

If Jesus existed as God, then you are saying Jesus did not exist before he came to earth, but the scriptures say Jesus existed with God before he came to earth.

Prior to the incarnation the Second Person of the Godhead was co-equal, co-eternal with the First and Third Person's of the Godhead. God the Second Person took upon himself the flesh nature of man in the womb of Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit. The man was Jesus of nazereth the promised "Messiah" or "Christ" of the Old Testament. His flesh did not become deity nor did his deity become humanity but He was "The God with us" clothed in humanity.

How else do you think Jesus was God and existed with God, if not created by God before all things?

Jesus the God/man existed as God previous to becoming the incarnate God/man. The Greek word to express this transaction is the term "ginomai" that which BECOMES something that it was not formerly. The Greek term that demands his continual existence as God previous to creation of all things is the term "hen" which is an imperfect tense which demands continuous existence without a beginning or ending point in the past. The Greek term "hen" is used in John 1:1 whereas the Greek term "ginomai" is used in John 1:14.

First born is first born.
First born over all creation, over all creation, it is simple. Why do you want to change it from all creation to mean over all Christians?

That is the etymological root meaning but that is not its meaning by USAGE by God in his word and I pointed that out in the very book that provides an account of Creation - the book of Genesis. The firstborn son was NEVER the heir but the second born son was the "firstborn." You may scoff at that all you like but there is not one thing you can do to change it and that usage was established by God Himself as he OVERRULED the literal first born son and denied him the right of FIRSTborn! The term by useage simply means the rightful heir.

 

[Moriah]

Prior to the incarnation the Second Person of the Godhead was co-equal, co-eternal with the First and Third Person's of the Godhead. God the Second Person took upon himself the flesh nature of man in the womb of Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit. The man was Jesus of nazereth the promised "Messiah" or "Christ" of the Old Testament. His flesh did not become deity nor did his deity become humanity but He was "The God with us" clothed in humanity.

Are you saying God was two and the exact same and co equal, and the Holy Spirit made three but was not the same? Are you saying God two then became God one when Jesus came to earth?

Jesus the God/man existed as God previous to becoming the incarnate God/man. The Greek word to express this transaction is the term "ginomai" that which BECOMES something that it was not formerly. The Greek term that demands his continual existence as God previous to creation of all things is the term "hen" which is an imperfect tense which demands continuous existence without a beginning or ending point in the past. The Greek term "hen" is used in John 1:1 whereas the Greek term "ginomai" is used in John 1:14.

Therefore, it does sound as if you are saying God was two and the exact same, three with the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit was different, then God became one when He sent the second part of Him to earth.

That is the etymological root meaning but that is not its meaning by USAGE by God in his word and I pointed that out in the very book that provides an account of Creation - the book of Genesis. The firstborn son was NEVER the heir but the second born son was the "firstborn." You may scoff at that all you like but there is not one thing you can do to change it and that usage was established by God Himself as he OVERRULED the literal first born son and denied him the right of FIRSTborn! The term by useage simply means the rightful heir.

What does that have to do with Jesus being firstborn over all creation?

 

[The Biblicist]

Are you saying God was two

No! The Godhead has always been THREE Persons who are all CO-equal, CO-eternal and all equally share the very same attributes that make God to be God. Meaning they are all eternal, all immutable, all omnsicient, all omnipresent, and omnipotent.

and the exact same

No! The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Spirit and the Spirit is not the Father - they are three eternal distinctions or personages sharing one common substance and attributes which make God to be God.

Are you saying God two then became God one when Jesus came to earth?

No! I am saying that the eternal second Person of the Godhead "TOOK UPON HIMSELF" the additional human nature in the incarnation without ceasing to be God but only concealing the manifestation of God's glory under human skin or "God WITH us" - Immanual.

What does that have to do with Jesus being firstborn over all creation?

It means that Jesus is the RIGHTFUL HEIR or OWNER of all creation.

 

[Moriah]

No! The Godhead has always been THREE Persons who are all CO-equal, CO-eternal and all equally share the very same attributes that make God to be God. Meaning they are all eternal, all immutable, all omnsicient, all omnipresent, and omnipotent.

Then explain who Jesus was before the he came to earth.

No! The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Spirit and the Spirit is not the Father - they are three eternal distinctions or personages sharing one common substance and attributes which make God to be God.

Jesus is God! So, how do you explain now? Jesus WAS God in the beginning, but you say no, he was the Son. How was he God and the Son?

No! I am saying that the eternal second Person of the Godhead "TOOK UPON HIMSELF" the additional human nature in the incarnation without ceasing to be God but only concealing the manifestation of God's glory under human skin or "God WITH us" - Immanual.

You see though, with your explanation, there is no explanation. I hope you do not get all rude now, just try to stay calm and discuss kindly.

It means that Jesus is the RIGHTFUL HEIR or OWNER of all creation.

The scripture says Jesus was first born over all creation. Then the scripture goes on to say 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Explain why the scriptures would start off saying that Jesus was rightful heir of all creation, then the scriptures immediately start talking about the beginning when the creation was made.

 

[The Biblicist]

Isaiah 43:10 does not teach that YHVH was "formed" because YHVH is not the subject of the verb "formed." The subject of the verb "formed" is "No God" and that is a reference to some other God in addition to him "besides me." He is asserting his ETERNAL EXISTENCE as God. Just as Paul did when he said of Christ:

Col. 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

No God existed before him and no God existed after him. Isaiah repeats this same truth even using the very same phrase "ye are...my witnesses" and makes that crystal clear to anyone who can read English:

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 43:10~11 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD (YHVH), and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. v11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

These texts are as plain as the nose on your face! There is no other God in existence but YHVH and YHVH is the same name for all three Divine Persons of the Godhead:

Isa, 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

There are TWO in verse 6 speaking and both claiming to be YHVH. Note the possessive pronoun "and HIS redeemer the LORD." The nearest antecedent to that pronoun is "the LORD, the King of Israel. Here is absolute proof that YHVH is equally ascribed to BOTH persons and there are TWO persons here.

I post this again because it is irrefutable. Seve cannot overturn the fact that Isaiah 43:10 is repeated in Isaiah 44:8 and there it is crystal clear that what they are witnesses of is the testimony of YHVH that YHVV is the ONLY true God existent and YHVH is the name for a plurality of Persons in the Godhead as proven by Isaiah 44:6.

Even the Hebrew Grammar of Deuteronomy 6:4 demands a plurality of Persons identified as YHVH:

4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD [YHVH] our God [elohim] is one LORD:[YHVH]

The hebrew term "elohim" is a plural. The Hebrew has a singular = one; a dual = two and the plural = three minimum.

Therefore, The LORD our PLURAL GOD of THREE mimum is still ONE YHVH in number. That is why some call it a "Trinity" or better yet "tri-oneness".

That is why the plural "elohim" is found with the singular verb "create" in Genesis 1:1.

That is why the singular image is found with the plural pronoun "we" in Genesis 1:26.

All three person identified as YHVH are found in Isaiah 48:16-17:

16 ¶ Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.


The speaker identifies himself as "I" and "me" in this text and the nearest previous antecendent is YHVH in verse2 or "the LORD of Hosts" and the nearest following antecedant is YHVH in verse 17. This description "The LORD of Hosts" is distinguished from another personage caled "LORD" in Isaiah 44:6:

Isa, 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.