Whosoever Will

[AresMan]

Whosoever is enough for me.

Whosoever believeth / pas ho pisteuwn / all the ones believing is enough for me.

 

[asterisktom]

Whosoever believeth / pas ho pisteuwn / all the ones believing is enough for me.

Exactly. Another way of understanding the phrase is this: Whoever is outside when it rains will get wet. Not everyone gets wet because not everyone is outside when it rained.

Likewise this verse says that all believing ones will have eternal life.

 

[OldRegular]

Or that God plays favorites. "I choose to save him but not him even if he begs and pleads with Me to save him." The God I serve doesn't work that way. He said in Romans 10:13, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

That tells me that ANYONE can be saved, but unfortunately, pride keeps many from calling on Him.

The God you serve doesn't work that way? What gives you the right to put limits on GOD? Sheer arrogance!

Before you put limits on the God you serve [There are a lot of false gods in the world.] perhaps you should consider the whole counsel of GOD. Scripture tells us:

Romans 9:14-24
14. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22. What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23. And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24. Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Exodus 33:19
And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

 

[OldRegular]

That stinks of Calvinism. The Bible quite clearly says WHOSOEVER. It does not say, For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that the Elect may believe and so be saved. If the Apostle John was a Calvinist he would have used the word Elect and not Whosoever.

Classic example of jumping time again.

Beam me up Scottie.

Even when Scripture uses the word elect or chosen or predestinate you Freewillers deny it!

Ephesians 1:3-7
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

1Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation , a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Romans 8:228-30
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[John Toppass]

Lots of massaging and ignoring the scripture going on. God is so sovereign, He can save whosoever. Freewill does not limit God, because it was God that gave that freewill. There are some who limit God by saying he can only save a few and not all. They say that Jesus only died for an elect few even though Jesus says He died on the cross for all men. Only those who choose to accept the gift of grace and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior will be saved. By doing this they become the elect and God has predestined His Will for these elect even before the beginning of the world.

I do not have to prove this because it all ready is proven in the Gospel. It is the Gospel that is written in the Word of God. Just read it and open your hearts God will provide the Spirit to show you that He does not will for any to perish and that all should come into repentance.

God is so sovereign that He made man in His image and gave man freewill. God abides by His Word. Anyone who says that God only chose a few when His Word say His Son died for all, has to be ignoring parts of the Bible and massaging parts that they do read or they just do not understand the scripture or chooses not to believe all of God's Word. (I guess that is a form of freewill)

My Prayers are with those who believe God is not capable of saving whosoever and that whosoever could be all if they choose life over death.

P.S. writing it in red over and over still doesn’t make it say anything different than what God means for it to say.

 

[asterisktom]

My Prayers are with those who believe God is not capable of saving whosoever and that whosoever could be all if they choose life over death.

And those are Calvinists to you? You would have a hard time finding a Calvinist that believes that. But maybe accuracy wasn't a concern for you.

Jesus says He died on the cross for all men.

What verse did you massage that from?

 

[AresMan]

Lots of massaging and ignoring the scripture going on.

Whenever I deal with Scripture I want to exegete it in the English and the Greek and observe the context. I exegeted John 3:16; I did not ignore Scripture.

God is so sovereign, He can save whosoever.

Yes, God can save whosoever believeth. I have explained that whosoever does not at all connote ability; it nearly links to a verb of qualification.

Freewill does not limit God, because it was God that gave that freewill.

If you believe that God's strongest desire toward humanity is that every single person be saved, then "libertarian free will" does limit God because it inhibits Him from fulfilling His strongest desire.

There are some who limit God by saying he can only save a few and not all.

Yes, there are some, like the libertarian free will advocates, who would believe that under the parameters that God has created between Him and mankind, there are some people who will never believe the gospel; hence, God cannot save those people.
I believe that God can save absolutely anyone anywhere. No stubborn will is too great for God's grace. He can save anyone. He saves by intervening in the will.

They say that Jesus only died for an elect few even though Jesus says He died on the cross for all men.

Jesus "shall save His people from their sins" (Matthew 1:21). Jesus saves all that the Father gives to Him (John 6:36; 17:2). Jesus laid down His life for the sheep (John 10:11). Jesus purchased the church with His own blood (Acts 20:28). Christ is saviour of His body (Ephesians 5:23). Christ loved and gave Himself for the church (Ephesians 5:25). Jesus redeemed a peculiar people (Titus 2:14). Jesus redeemed people out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation (Revelation 5:9).

Only those who choose to accept the gift of grace and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior will be saved.

Agreed.

By doing this they become the elect and God has predestined His Will for these elect even before the beginning of the world.

God elected before the foundation of the world; therefore, one does not become "elect" when one comes to faith and repentance. One is "elect;" therefore, one eventually comes to faith and repentance.

I do not have to prove this because it all ready is proven in the Gospel. It is the Gospel that is written in the Word of God. Just read it and open your hearts God will provide the Spirit to show you that He does not will for any to perish and that all should come into repentance.

This is also written in the Gospel:
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

God is so sovereign that He made man in His image and gave man freewill.

So, God is so sovereign that He destroyed His own ability to fulfill His own desires.

God abides by His Word. Anyone who says that God only chose a few when His Word say His Son died for all, has to be ignoring parts of the Bible and massaging parts that they do read or they just do not understand the scripture or chooses not to believe all of God's Word. (I guess that is a form of freewill)

Please list some verses that you think are being ignored. We will discuss them, exegete them, and examine their context.

My Prayers are with those who believe God is not capable of saving whosoever and that whosoever could be all if they choose life over death.

I believe that God is actually capable of saving absolutely anyone. You likely believe that there are some that God wants to save but cannot because their will will not allow it.

 

[John Toppass]

And those are Calvinists to you? You would have a hard time finding a Calvinist that believes that. But maybe accuracy wasn't a concern for you.

I do not think I said anything about Calvin or Calvinist.

What verse did you massage that from?

Did I massage a verse? Can you show me where?


Like I said read the all the scripture and you will understand.

 

[asterisktom]

Did I massage a verse? Can you show me where?

You had said "Jesus says He died on the cross for all men."

No, I really can't tell you where you got that from. That was my point. Where did Jesus say all that?

Thanks.

 

[OldRegular]

There are some who limit God by saying he can only save a few and not all.

What a CROCK!

 

[RAdam]

Jesus did love enemies. He loved His people when they were enemies, and died for them when they were enemies, and reconciled them to God by His own death when they were enemies.

 

[RAdam]

"My Prayers are with those who believe God is not capable of saving whosoever and that whosoever could be all if they choose life over death."

I want you to read what you wrote. Read it slowly and read it carefully. You are arguing that God is sovereign and can save whoever He wants (for which I am in total agreement). Then you state that He is able to save whosoever if... If? God is sovereign and saves who He wants, but man must cooperate? What you are saying is I am more powerful than God. After all, you tell me that God wants me to go to heaven, but I must cooperate. I can confound something God wants and set it at naught. That's a sovereign God? Really? You are arguing that God wants everyone in humanity to go to heaven, and sent Jesus to die for them to this end, but those who do not cooperate will confound His plans and Christ died in vain for them, for they will end up in hell for eternity.

Election, particular redemption, and the effectual call present a less sovereign God? Really?

 

[kyredneck]

Jesus did love enemies. He loved His people when they were enemies, and died for them when they were enemies, and reconciled them to God by His own death when they were enemies.

You are absolutely correct Brother. He loved us when we were weak; He loved us when we were sinners; He loved us when we were enemies; He made us alive when we were dead.

He also told us to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves with the warning that we're like sheep in the midst of wolves. He warned, 'Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before the swine, lest haply they trample them under their feet, and turn and rend you'. 'I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed'. We do have enemies that are His enemies, and which are dangerous to the sheep. I believe we should be cautious with the gift of agape that He has put within us. We should be cautious with who we include in that command, 'Love your enemies'.

 

[Cypress]

(QUOTE)God is sovereign and saves who He wants, but man must cooperate? What you are saying is I am more powerful than God. After all, you tell me that God wants me to go to heaven, but I must cooperate. I can confound something God wants and set it at naught. That's a sovereign God? Really? You are arguing that God wants everyone in humanity to go to heaven, and sent Jesus to die for them to this end, but those who do not cooperate will confound His plans and Christ died in vain for them, for they will end up in hell for eternity.

Election, particular redemption, and the effectual call present a less sovereign God? Really?[/QUOTE]

Any rebellion against God would present a less sovereign God if your argument is true. God is totally sovereign. So much so that He can allow LFW in man..not confounding His plans, but accomplishing them. This is where the tension comes from in these arguments. Misuse of mans will carries penalties up to and including eternal separation from God.

 

[MB]

Perhaps it is simple to you MB but I doubt that it it is to anyone else. How are the whosoever wills saved other than by grace?

Everyone who is saved is saved by grace but, not everyone is elect when they are saved. The doctrines of grace use particular election and total depravity to restrict who might believe. Falsely claiming that men are unable to uderstand the gospel unless they are elect before the foundation of the world.

Also while you explain the above please address the request made in the OP: I would appreciate those who hold the above Freewill doctrines showing how the Doctrine of Sovereign Grace in Salvation is contrary to the above passage or contradicts any other passage they use to defend their beliefs!

The doctrines of grace require election, yet we are only elected through sanctification. The Bible simply doesn't support Gentile election before the foundation of the world.
This verse says we are "In Him" when we are chosen.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
You and I were not holy and blameless before Him. Only after Sanctification can we be holy and blameless before we are chosen.
We have to be sanctified before we are chosen.
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
MB

 

[David Michael Harris]

That stinks of arminianism.



The modern day distortion of John 3:16 with the lopsided focus on 'whosoever believeth', is like placing the emPHASis on the wrong syLAHbull and causes confusion with the topic of God's grace. John 3:16 is not an invitation, it is a statement of fact; a wonderful summation of God's love towards us. Here's the real invitation:

“Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

You absolutely must consider the two preceding lead-in verses to Jn 3:16:

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life. Jn 3:14,15

Referring to:

And Jehovah said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a standard: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live. Nu 21:8

Take note; the brazen serpent was lifted up for those that were bitten.

.........They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners. Mk 2:17

It is the Spirit working within His children that causes them to feel their need for Christ..........another example of regeneration BEFORE belief.

Fortunate indeed are those that have been made to feel the serpent's awful sting. Fortunate are those that have been made to hunger and thirst after righteousness.



No, I'll tell you what it does NOT say. It does not say that the serpent was lifted up for the Egyptians, or for the Greeks, or for the Assyrians, or for the Babylonians; The serpent was lifted up for Israel.

But I am Arminian to some extent just as I am Calvinist, that why I am Welsh Calvinist Methodist.

If you see my profile you will see I am for Mediate Theology as put forward by Gordon Olson.

Breath of fresh air if you ask me.

Mediate Theology

 

[kyredneck]

But I am Arminian to some extent just as I am Calvinist, that why I am Welsh Calvinist Methodist....

I'm happy for you, I guess, but, why are you here posting on the 'Baptist Only' forums?

 

[Rippon]

But I am Arminian to some extent just as I am Calvinist, that why I am Welsh Calvinist Methodist.

Welsh Calvinistic Methodists are Calvinists! Go back and check your history. Griffith Jones,William Williams,Daniel Rowland and Thomas Charles in particular. Dr.David M-Lloyd-Jones was of that background too. You can't deny his Calvinism.

By the way, Methodism did not start out as an Arminian movement. Those associated with the Holy Club included George Whitefield after all.

If you see my profile you will see I am for Mediate Theology as put forward by Gordon Olson.

Breath of fresh air if you ask me.

That's just Arminianism. I have Gordon Olson's definitive book on the subject, incidentally. He's in quite a lot of error. Since the publication of his book he's now an Open Theist.

His expelled air is rancid.

 

[RAdam]

So let me get this right. God didn't choose who would be saved but rather made provisions for every single person universally to be saved, given of course that men cooperate in meeting certain conditions. So God didn't choose anyone in particular unto salvation, but rather every single person in existence is able to go to heaven if they are willing, will accept Christ, etc. That's the position you take, correct?

So, in other words, according to your position God's plan of salvation is for me to be saved, but in the end it is up to me to meet the conditions. In other words, in order to accomplish God's desire for my salvation, I must cooperate. If I do not, I will in effect confound God's plan for me. According to you, I'm more powerful than God. After all, His desire is for me to be in heaven with Him, but (according to you) I can say no to God and His desire will not come to fruition. What happened to the God of the bible who said, "my counsel shall stand and I will do all my pleasure?" The God you present is weaker than humanity.

 

[David Michael Harris]

I'm happy for you, I guess, but, why are you here posting on the 'Baptist Only' forums?

Ooops, sry, but officially I am a baptist. I have my baptism card to prove it.