Whosoever Will

[David Michael Harris]

Welsh Calvinistic Methodists are Calvinists! Go back and check your history. Griffith Jones,William Williams,Daniel Rowland and Thomas Charles in particular. Dr.David M-Lloyd-Jones was of that background too. You can't deny his Calvinism.

By the way, Methodism did not start out as an Arminian movement. Those associated with the Holy Club included George Whitefield after all.



That's just Arminianism. I have Gordon Olson's definitive book on the subject, incidentally. He's in quite a lot of error. Since the publication of his book he's now an Open Theist.

His expelled air is rancid.

Listen to yourself. I am sure if you talk with Olson on your problems he will talk with you. State a few?

Mediate theology will be the way forward. Calvinism will fall. Just watch and see. Time goes bye. It's amazing the way people protect Calvinism as if it's Scripture. The guy burnt someone to death. And all in the name of God?

 

[OldRegular]

But I am Arminian to some extent just as I am Calvinist, that why I am Welsh Calvinist Methodist.

Then you really do need to read Martyn Lloyd-Jones [Particularly his 3 volume set of sermons on theology.] who was also Welsh Calvinist Methodist!

 

[David Michael Harris]

Then you really do need to read Martyn Lloyd-Jones [Particularly his 3 volume set of sermons on theology.] who was also Welsh Calvinist Methodist!

I like Jones but a couple of things put me off him, one was he thought testimonies were stupid and a waste of time and another he said, that people should at some time in their life seek an experience of the Holy Spirit. Some time? Geez.

 

[Rippon]

Then you really do need to read Martyn Lloyd-Jones [Particularly his 3 volume set of sermons on theology.] who was also Welsh Calvinist Methodist!

I made the same point in my last post.

 

[OldRegular]

Calvinism will fall. Just watch and see.

Perhaps in the final apostasy? No! Not really, the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace will never fall!

 

[David Michael Harris]

I like Jones but a couple of things put me off him, one was he thought testimonies were stupid and a waste of time and another he said, that people should at some time in their life seek an experience of the Holy Spirit. Some time? Geez.

Shields up.

 

[OldRegular]

I made the same point in my last post.

Sorry! Had not read past his post.

 

[David Michael Harris]

Perhaps in the final apostasy? No! Not really, the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace will never fall!

Calvinism is Scripture?

 

[Jon-Marc]

Romans 10:13 does not say that "ANYONE can be saved." It says that "hos an epikalesetai" or "those who would/shall call" shall be saved. As usual, people read this into the text. They assert universal "ability" where the text merely states qualification.

So "whosoever shall call" does not mean "anyone who calls"? What does whosoever mean to you? To me it means that ANYONE who calls on God for forgiveness and salvation WILL be saved. God does not turn ANYONE away who truly repents and seeks His forgiveness.

 

[David Michael Harris]

Big John Elias fan here btw. Mainly because he preached to the unconverted. He was a strong predestinarian as I am in my puny way. They call him a hyper calv on wiki but I have never seen him look like that in his books. Most are in Welsh and not translated I will agree.

 

[RAdam]

The wicked, though the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.

 

[Jon-Marc]

Arminian Why are people so afraid of the word whosoever.?

Because for some strange and unfathomable reason they want to believe that God is incapable of saving everyone if they all came to Him, and so they say that He choose to save some and not others. That is totally unscriptural. My God is bigger and better than that. He is not petty, weak, or unforgiving to some and forgiving toward others.

His offer of forgiveness is to ALL. What we do with that offer is up to us. That's where free will comes in since we are not puppets on a string.

 

[David Michael Harris]

The wicked, though the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.

And? What's your point? Is that to Calvin?

 

[Jon-Marc]

Whosoever believeth / pas ho pisteuwn / all the ones believing is enough for me.

That's what whosoever means--those who will believe. It is our choice to accept or reject Him--our choice to believe or not. He "foreknew" who would or would not accept Him, and He chose us according to that foreknowledge. God knew everything that would ever happen long before the creation of the world.

 

[David Michael Harris]

Because for some strange and unfathomable reason they want to believe that God is incapable of saving everyone if they all came to Him, and so they say that He choose to save some and not others. That is totally unscriptural. My God is bigger and better than that. He is not petty, weak, or unforgiving to some and forgiving toward others.

His offer of forgiveness is to ALL. What we do with that offer is up to us. That's where free will comes in since we are not puppets on a string.

What you will find Jon Marc is most who hold to this are brought up in today's fellowships of various historical backgrounds and not born again off the street.

Not all.

When you say His offer is to ALL you will get flak on that.

 

[Jon-Marc]

The God you serve doesn't work that way? What gives you the right to put limits on GOD? Sheer arrogance! QUOTE]

I have no idea what you read into what I wrote, but the God I serve is the God of the Bible, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, immutable, and able to save everyone IF they would only come to Him.

I said that THAT God, MY God, does not refuse to save anyone. He does not pick and choose who he will and will not save EXCEPT through His foreknowledge of who will call on Him for salvation--His offer is to "whosoever will."

I was reputing the false belief that God's atonement is limited. God's atonement is offered to EVERYONE, and NO one is refused. God has NO limits, His love, grace, or mercy are unlimited except for our belief or lack thereof.

 

[Johnv]

So, after ten pages of debate, we still haven't identified this "Whosoever Will" person. Perhaps he's the brother of "Trespassers Will", the person who caused great strife to Winnie The Pooh.

 

[David Michael Harris]

So, after ten pages of debate, we still haven't identified this "Whosoever Will" person. Perhaps he's the brother of "Trespassers Will", the person who caused great strife to Winnie The Pooh.

Well, enlighten us Spock.

Off to eat, back later.

 

[AresMan]

So "whosoever shall call" does not mean "anyone who calls"?

Where did I say that? I said that whosoever believeth does not strictly connote "anyone CAN believe."

What does whosoever mean to you?

I explained this earlier. It means "[all] the ones who..."

To me it means that ANYONE who calls on God for forgiveness and salvation WILL be saved. God does not turn ANYONE away who truly repents and seeks His forgiveness.

Yes, I agree with this. What I was explaining was that whosoever does not specifically dictate ability. It mere states the qualification.

Too many people misunderstand the English word whosoever as it translates "all the ones... ___ing." People think that the word itself stands alone as some declaration of universal ability. The word does NOT say anything about the ability of everyone to do X. It only says that the ones who actually do X are the qualifiers.

 

[RAdam]

That's what whosoever means--those who will believe. It is our choice to accept or reject Him--our choice to believe or not. He "foreknew" who would or would not accept Him, and He chose us according to that foreknowledge. God knew everything that would ever happen long before the creation of the world.

So when Paul says we believe according to the working of His mighty power which He wrought in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and set Him at His own right hand in heavenly places, etc, he was mistaken? According to you Paul should have written that we believe according to our own free will decision.