OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Perhaps you should share your God! The GOD I worship is the One revealed in the Bible!
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Whosoever Will
- Thread starter OldRegular
- Start date
- Status
Perhaps you should share your God! The GOD I worship is the One revealed in the Bible!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Hello OldRegular,
I am new here so please help me out a bit. If my questions are "old hat" and you do not wish to spend time on them, then that's ok too, I will just keep reading and maybe find the answers.
What is the "Doctrine of Sovereign Grace"???
I apologize, but for the life of me, I cannot find the term "sovereign" in the Bible.
Do you have a scriptural reference for it?
I have tried a Bible search program and came up empty handed.
What is the difference between "sovereign grace" and just the plain old ordinary Grace of God?
I do know what the word means; but don't know how you are applying it.
I know that Castro was sovereign and Hitler was sovereign, as well as many Kings down through time.
Does this mean that they know ahead of time what will happen because they decreed it to happen?
Seems a bit limiting to me to say a fellar only knows what will happen because he decreed it to happen.
Let us apply the term to God.....Is God all knowing only because He decreed something to take place like the men listed above???
Or perhaps is God much more than that and is all knowing because through His foreknowledge He knows what each and every man will do so therefore God knows what will take place in the future because He knows the cumulative effect of each man's actions?
Could we also say a much more powerful God would be a God who also knows what would have taken place if man had chosen differently?
Are we to limit God to knowing only what He has previously decreed?
Is this in any way related to your use of the word "sovereign"?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
olegig
The following is from some information I prepared for a discussion of the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation. It is rather long but perhaps it will be helpful. If uou prefer to read a book may I suggest The Manual of Theology by John Dagg or God the Holy Spirit by Martyn Lloyd Jones. The latter may be somewhat easier to follow.
OldRegular
The Covenant of Grace
The doctrine of the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation is clearly expressed in the Covenant of Grace. This Covenant, an eternal covenant, is best understood as a covenant in which the three Divine Persons in the Godhead co-operate in man’s salvation [Psalms 2:8; 40: 6-8; 59:3; Isaiah 49: 3-12; John 17:6; Hebrews 13:20; Titus 1:2] and is summarized as follows:
1. God the Father foreknew and chose a people to be His own before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4].
2. God the Son wagrees to humble Himself, take upon Himself the form of man, and die on the cross to pay the penalty for the sins of those whom the Father has chosen to salvation so that none are lost [John 17; Philippians 2:6-10].
3. God the Holy Spirit agrees to apply the work of the Son to those chosen by God the Father and who regenerates and effectually calls those whom God the Father has chosen unto salvation [John 6: 37, 44; Ephesians 2:1-10].
We must not think that this Covenant of Grace was preceded by a proposal of terms by one person of the Triune Godhead followed by deliberation prior to acceptance or rejection of the proposal by the other persons of the Triune Godhead. God is One and the nature of the Godhead is such that perfect harmony, in fact, unity of thought must exist within the Triune Godhead.
Holy Scripture is the story of the outworking of the Covenant of Grace in time and history. Though there is one Covenant of Grace [and many subsidiary covenants] there have been two primary administrations of the Covenant, one before the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ and one after His death and resurrection. The first administration as recorded in the Old Testament dealt in types and shadows of things to come [Colossians 2:17, Hebrews 8:5 and 10:1]; the second administration, as recorded in the New Testament, presents the spiritual reality of that which was promised. This second administration was instituted by the death of Jesus Christ [Hebrews 7:14-28] and is the fulfillment of the Old Testament promise of a New Covenant [Jeremiah 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:6-13]. The elect of God have, since the fall of Adam, received the blessings of the Covenant solely through the Sovereign Grace of God.
The Baptist Confession of Faith of 1677 [Lumpkin, Baptist Confessions of Faith, page 259], which was not signed until 1689 and is sometimes referred to by that date, defines the Covenant of Grace as follows:
“The distance between God and the creature is so great that, although reasonable creatures do owe obedience unto Him as their Creator, yet they could never have attained the reward of life but by some voluntary condescension on God’s part [Luke 17:7-10; Job 35:7,8] which He hath been pleased to express, by way of Covenant.
Moreover man, having brought himself under the curse of the law by his fall [Genesis 2:17; Galatians 3:10; Romans 3:20, 21], it pleased the Lord to make a Covenant of Grace wherein He freely offereth unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ, requiring of them faith in Him, that they may be saved [Romans 8:3; Mark 16:15, 16; John 3:16]; and promising to give unto all those that they ordained unto eternal life, His Holy Spirit to make them willing and able to believe [Ezekiel 36:26, 27; John 6:44, 45; Psalm 110:3].
This Covenant is revealed in the Gospel; first of all to Adam in the promise of salvation by the seed of woman [Genesis 3:15], and afterwards by further steps until the full discovery thereof was completed in the New Testament [Hebrews 1:1]; and it is founded in that eternal Covenant transaction [2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2] that was between the Father and the Son about the redemption of the elect; and it is alone by the grace of this Covenant that all of the posterity of fallen Adam that ever were saved [Hebrews 11:6, 13; Romans 4:1, 2; Acts 4:12; John 8: 56] did obtain life and a blessed immortality; man being utterly uncapable of acceptance with God upon those terms on which Adam stood in his state of innocency.”
Continued post #106.
The following is from some information I prepared for a discussion of the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation. It is rather long but perhaps it will be helpful. If uou prefer to read a book may I suggest The Manual of Theology by John Dagg or God the Holy Spirit by Martyn Lloyd Jones. The latter may be somewhat easier to follow.
OldRegular
The Covenant of Grace
The doctrine of the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation is clearly expressed in the Covenant of Grace. This Covenant, an eternal covenant, is best understood as a covenant in which the three Divine Persons in the Godhead co-operate in man’s salvation [Psalms 2:8; 40: 6-8; 59:3; Isaiah 49: 3-12; John 17:6; Hebrews 13:20; Titus 1:2] and is summarized as follows:
1. God the Father foreknew and chose a people to be His own before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4].
2. God the Son wagrees to humble Himself, take upon Himself the form of man, and die on the cross to pay the penalty for the sins of those whom the Father has chosen to salvation so that none are lost [John 17; Philippians 2:6-10].
3. God the Holy Spirit agrees to apply the work of the Son to those chosen by God the Father and who regenerates and effectually calls those whom God the Father has chosen unto salvation [John 6: 37, 44; Ephesians 2:1-10].
We must not think that this Covenant of Grace was preceded by a proposal of terms by one person of the Triune Godhead followed by deliberation prior to acceptance or rejection of the proposal by the other persons of the Triune Godhead. God is One and the nature of the Godhead is such that perfect harmony, in fact, unity of thought must exist within the Triune Godhead.
Holy Scripture is the story of the outworking of the Covenant of Grace in time and history. Though there is one Covenant of Grace [and many subsidiary covenants] there have been two primary administrations of the Covenant, one before the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ and one after His death and resurrection. The first administration as recorded in the Old Testament dealt in types and shadows of things to come [Colossians 2:17, Hebrews 8:5 and 10:1]; the second administration, as recorded in the New Testament, presents the spiritual reality of that which was promised. This second administration was instituted by the death of Jesus Christ [Hebrews 7:14-28] and is the fulfillment of the Old Testament promise of a New Covenant [Jeremiah 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:6-13]. The elect of God have, since the fall of Adam, received the blessings of the Covenant solely through the Sovereign Grace of God.
The Baptist Confession of Faith of 1677 [Lumpkin, Baptist Confessions of Faith, page 259], which was not signed until 1689 and is sometimes referred to by that date, defines the Covenant of Grace as follows:
“The distance between God and the creature is so great that, although reasonable creatures do owe obedience unto Him as their Creator, yet they could never have attained the reward of life but by some voluntary condescension on God’s part [Luke 17:7-10; Job 35:7,8] which He hath been pleased to express, by way of Covenant.
Moreover man, having brought himself under the curse of the law by his fall [Genesis 2:17; Galatians 3:10; Romans 3:20, 21], it pleased the Lord to make a Covenant of Grace wherein He freely offereth unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ, requiring of them faith in Him, that they may be saved [Romans 8:3; Mark 16:15, 16; John 3:16]; and promising to give unto all those that they ordained unto eternal life, His Holy Spirit to make them willing and able to believe [Ezekiel 36:26, 27; John 6:44, 45; Psalm 110:3].
This Covenant is revealed in the Gospel; first of all to Adam in the promise of salvation by the seed of woman [Genesis 3:15], and afterwards by further steps until the full discovery thereof was completed in the New Testament [Hebrews 1:1]; and it is founded in that eternal Covenant transaction [2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2] that was between the Father and the Son about the redemption of the elect; and it is alone by the grace of this Covenant that all of the posterity of fallen Adam that ever were saved [Hebrews 11:6, 13; Romans 4:1, 2; Acts 4:12; John 8: 56] did obtain life and a blessed immortality; man being utterly uncapable of acceptance with God upon those terms on which Adam stood in his state of innocency.”
Continued post #106.
Last edited by a moderator:
You are unable to explain Olegig's simple questions in your own words, are you? I believe if he wanted a book, he could pull one off the shelf.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Covenant of Grace, continued from previous post.
The Apostle Paul in his letter to the church at Rome clearly defines the Sovereign Grace of God in salvation:
Romans 1:16, KJV
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
That the sovereignty of God is effective in the salvation of the elect is demonstrated in the following Scripture.
Romans 8:28-30, KJV
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:3-7, KJV
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Ephesians 2:1-8, KJV
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Philippians 2:6-8, KJV
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Revelation 1:5, KJV
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Revelation 5:9, KJV
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
1 Peter 1:18,19, KJV
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
John 16:13-15, KJV
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
From this sampling of many such Scripture we see that:
1. It is GOD the Father who foreknew and chose His people before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4].
2. It is GOD the Father who predestinated that His people would be conformed to the image of His Son that they might be adopted as His children [Ephesians 1: 5] and become heirs and joint heirs with Jesus Christ [Romans 8: 16, 17].
3. It is GOD the Son who humbles Himself, take upon Himself the form of man, Jesus Christ, and sheds His blood on a Roman cross to pay the penalty for the sins of those whom the Father has chosen to salvation [John 17; Philippians 2:6-10].
4. It is GOD the Holy Spirit, who applies the work of the Jesus Christ to those chosen by God unto salvation so that none are lost [John 6: 37, 39, 40, 44].
5. It is the Triune GOD who, in time, will regenerate, call, justify, and glorify those whom He chose to Salvation before the foundation of the world, therefore, they can never fall away or lose that Salvation [Romans 8:28-30].
The Holy Scriptures from the first words in the book of Genesis, In the beginning God created to the last words in the book of Revelation, The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you all. Amen, are a testimony to the sovereignty of God. By sovereignty is meant, not simply the omnipotence of God, but the exercise of that omnipotence in the governing of all things. Similarly, from the shedding of blood to provide a covering for the nakedness of Adam and Eve, to the birth of Jesus Christ - God the Son, His death and resurrection, and finally to the declaration of His return in power and glory, Scripture clearly declares the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation. God not only takes the initiative in Salvation but completes that good work.
Philippians 1:6, KJV
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
Covenant of Grace, continued in following post.
The Apostle Paul in his letter to the church at Rome clearly defines the Sovereign Grace of God in salvation:
Romans 1:16, KJV
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
That the sovereignty of God is effective in the salvation of the elect is demonstrated in the following Scripture.
Romans 8:28-30, KJV
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:3-7, KJV
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Ephesians 2:1-8, KJV
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Philippians 2:6-8, KJV
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Revelation 1:5, KJV
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Revelation 5:9, KJV
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
1 Peter 1:18,19, KJV
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
John 16:13-15, KJV
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
From this sampling of many such Scripture we see that:
1. It is GOD the Father who foreknew and chose His people before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4].
2. It is GOD the Father who predestinated that His people would be conformed to the image of His Son that they might be adopted as His children [Ephesians 1: 5] and become heirs and joint heirs with Jesus Christ [Romans 8: 16, 17].
3. It is GOD the Son who humbles Himself, take upon Himself the form of man, Jesus Christ, and sheds His blood on a Roman cross to pay the penalty for the sins of those whom the Father has chosen to salvation [John 17; Philippians 2:6-10].
4. It is GOD the Holy Spirit, who applies the work of the Jesus Christ to those chosen by God unto salvation so that none are lost [John 6: 37, 39, 40, 44].
5. It is the Triune GOD who, in time, will regenerate, call, justify, and glorify those whom He chose to Salvation before the foundation of the world, therefore, they can never fall away or lose that Salvation [Romans 8:28-30].
The Holy Scriptures from the first words in the book of Genesis, In the beginning God created to the last words in the book of Revelation, The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you all. Amen, are a testimony to the sovereignty of God. By sovereignty is meant, not simply the omnipotence of God, but the exercise of that omnipotence in the governing of all things. Similarly, from the shedding of blood to provide a covering for the nakedness of Adam and Eve, to the birth of Jesus Christ - God the Son, His death and resurrection, and finally to the declaration of His return in power and glory, Scripture clearly declares the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation. God not only takes the initiative in Salvation but completes that good work.
Philippians 1:6, KJV
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
Covenant of Grace, continued in following post.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Covenant of Grace, continued from previous post.
J. L. Dagg [a prominent Southern Baptist of the 19th century] in his Manual of Theology [pages 253-257] expands on the above discussion of the Covenant of Grace, as follows:
“On a former occasion, it was shown that the Scriptures use the term covenant with great latitude of meaning. The propriety of its use in the present case, cannot well be questioned. We have three divine persons, who are parties in this covenant; and the doctrine of God’s unity cannot exclude the notion of a covenant, without, at the same time, excluding the distinction of persons in the Godhead. We are not to imagine, as included in this covenant transaction, a proposal of terms by one party, and a deliberation, followed with an acceptance or rejection of them, by the other parties. These things occur, in the making of human covenants, because of the imperfection of the parties. In condescension to our weakness, the Scriptures use language taken from the affairs of men. They speak as if a formal proposal had been made, at the creation of man, addressed by one of the parties to the others: Let us make man; but this is in accommodation to our modes of conception. An agreement and co-operation of the divine persons, in the creation of man, is what is taught in this passage. This agreement and co-operation extend to all the works of God; Who worketh all things after the counsel of his will. [Ephesians 1:11] The idea of counsel in all these works, accords with that of consultation. which is presented in the account of man’s creation. In every work of God, the divine persons must either agree or disagree. As they alike possess infinite wisdom, disagreement among them is impossible. The salvation of men is a work of God, in which the divine persons concur. It is performed according to an eternal purpose; and in this purpose, as well as in the work, the divine persons concur; and this concurrence is their eternal covenant. The purpose of the one God, is the covenant of the Trinity.
In the work of salvation, the divine persons co-operate in different offices; and these are so clearly revealed, as to render the personal distinction in the Godhead more manifest, than it is in any other of God's works. Beyond doubt, these official relations are severally held, by the perfect agreement of all; and, speaking after the manner of men, the adjustment of these relations, and the assignment of the several parts in the work are the grand stipulations of the eternal covenant.
That the covenant is eternal, may be argued from the eternity, unchangeableness, and omniscience of the parties, and from the declarations of Scripture which directly or indirectly relate to it: Through the blood of the everlasting covenant. [Hebrews 13:20]; His eternal purpose in Christ Jesus. [Ephesians 3:11]; In hope of eternal life promised the world began. [Titus 1:2]; Grace given in Christ Jesus before the world began. [2 Timothy 1:9]
Although God's purpose is one, we are obliged, according to our modes of conception, to view it, and speak of it, as consisting of various parts. So, the eternal covenant is one; but it is revealed to us in a manner adapted to our conceptions and to our spiritual benefit. The work of redemption by Christ is presented in the Gospel as the great object of our faith; and the stipulation for the accomplishment of this work, is the prominent point exhibited in the revelation which is made to us respecting the covenant of grace. The agreement between the Father and the Son is conspicuously brought to view, in various parts of the sacred volume: Thine they were, and thou gavest them me. [John 17: 6] Ask of me, and I will give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. [Psalm 2: 8] Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire. Then said I, Lo, I come, in the volume of the book it is written of me, I delight to do thy will, O God; [Psalm 40: 6-18] and in Isaiah, Chapter 49, the stipulations between the Father and the Son are presented, almost as if they had been copied from an original record of the transaction.
Covenant of Grace by Dagg, continued in following post.
J. L. Dagg [a prominent Southern Baptist of the 19th century] in his Manual of Theology [pages 253-257] expands on the above discussion of the Covenant of Grace, as follows:
“On a former occasion, it was shown that the Scriptures use the term covenant with great latitude of meaning. The propriety of its use in the present case, cannot well be questioned. We have three divine persons, who are parties in this covenant; and the doctrine of God’s unity cannot exclude the notion of a covenant, without, at the same time, excluding the distinction of persons in the Godhead. We are not to imagine, as included in this covenant transaction, a proposal of terms by one party, and a deliberation, followed with an acceptance or rejection of them, by the other parties. These things occur, in the making of human covenants, because of the imperfection of the parties. In condescension to our weakness, the Scriptures use language taken from the affairs of men. They speak as if a formal proposal had been made, at the creation of man, addressed by one of the parties to the others: Let us make man; but this is in accommodation to our modes of conception. An agreement and co-operation of the divine persons, in the creation of man, is what is taught in this passage. This agreement and co-operation extend to all the works of God; Who worketh all things after the counsel of his will. [Ephesians 1:11] The idea of counsel in all these works, accords with that of consultation. which is presented in the account of man’s creation. In every work of God, the divine persons must either agree or disagree. As they alike possess infinite wisdom, disagreement among them is impossible. The salvation of men is a work of God, in which the divine persons concur. It is performed according to an eternal purpose; and in this purpose, as well as in the work, the divine persons concur; and this concurrence is their eternal covenant. The purpose of the one God, is the covenant of the Trinity.
In the work of salvation, the divine persons co-operate in different offices; and these are so clearly revealed, as to render the personal distinction in the Godhead more manifest, than it is in any other of God's works. Beyond doubt, these official relations are severally held, by the perfect agreement of all; and, speaking after the manner of men, the adjustment of these relations, and the assignment of the several parts in the work are the grand stipulations of the eternal covenant.
That the covenant is eternal, may be argued from the eternity, unchangeableness, and omniscience of the parties, and from the declarations of Scripture which directly or indirectly relate to it: Through the blood of the everlasting covenant. [Hebrews 13:20]; His eternal purpose in Christ Jesus. [Ephesians 3:11]; In hope of eternal life promised the world began. [Titus 1:2]; Grace given in Christ Jesus before the world began. [2 Timothy 1:9]
Although God's purpose is one, we are obliged, according to our modes of conception, to view it, and speak of it, as consisting of various parts. So, the eternal covenant is one; but it is revealed to us in a manner adapted to our conceptions and to our spiritual benefit. The work of redemption by Christ is presented in the Gospel as the great object of our faith; and the stipulation for the accomplishment of this work, is the prominent point exhibited in the revelation which is made to us respecting the covenant of grace. The agreement between the Father and the Son is conspicuously brought to view, in various parts of the sacred volume: Thine they were, and thou gavest them me. [John 17: 6] Ask of me, and I will give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. [Psalm 2: 8] Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire. Then said I, Lo, I come, in the volume of the book it is written of me, I delight to do thy will, O God; [Psalm 40: 6-18] and in Isaiah, Chapter 49, the stipulations between the Father and the Son are presented, almost as if they had been copied from an original record of the transaction.
Covenant of Grace by Dagg, continued in following post.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Covenant of Grace by Dagg, continued from previous post.
J. L. Dagg [a prominent Southern Baptist of the 19th century] in his Manual of Theology [pages 253-257] expands on the above discussion of the Covenant of Grace, as follows:
According to the covenant arrangement, the Son appeared in human nature, in the form of a, servant; and, after obeying unto death, was exalted by the Father to supreme dominion. The Holy Spirit also is revealed as acting in a subordinate office, being sent by the Father and by the Son. The Father alone is not presented as acting in a subordinate office; but appears as sustaining the full authority of the Godhead, sending the Son, giving him a people to be redeemed, prescribing the terms, accepting the service, rewarding and glorifying the Son, and sending the Holy Spirit. In all this the Father appears as the representative of the Godhead, in its authority and majesty. The Son also sustains a representative character. The promise of eternal life was made, before the world began, to the people of God, in him as their representative. The reconciliation between God and men is provided for by the covenant engagement between the Father and the Son; the Father acting as the representative of the Godhead, and the Son as the representative and surety of his people. The Holy Spirit concurs in this arrangement, and takes his part in the work, in harmony with the other persons of the Godhead. His peculiar office is necessary to complete the plan, and to reward the obedience of the Son by the salvation of his redeemed people. The promises of the Father to the Son include the gift of the Holy Spirit; and, therefore, the sending of the Spirit is attributed to the Son; [John 16:7] and sometimes to the Father at the petition of the Son.[John 14:16]
In this order of operation, inferiority of nature is not implied, in the subordination of office to which the Son and the Spirit voluntarily consent. The fulness of the Godhead dwells in each of the divine persons, and renders the fulfillment of the covenant infallibly sure, in all its stipulations. The Holy Spirit, in the execution of his office, dwells in believers; but he brings with him the fulness of the Godhead, so that God is in them, and they are the temple of God, and filled with the fulness of God. The Son or Word, in the execution of his office, becomes the man Jesus Christ; but the fulness of the Godhead dwells in him; so that, in his deepest humiliation he is God manifest in the flesh, God over all, blessed for ever.
The order of operation in this mysterious and wonderful economy, can be learned from divine revelation only. Here we should study it with simple faith, relying on the testimony of God. In the representation of it here exhibited, we may discover that the blessings of grace, proceeding from God, appear to originate in the Father, “of whom are all things,” to be conferred through the Son, “by whom are all things,” and by the Spirit, who is the immediate agent in bestowing them, the last in the order of operation. The approach to God, in acts of devotion, is in the reverse order. The Spirit makes intercession in the saints, moving them, as a spirit of supplication, and assisting their infirmities, when they know not what to pray for. Their prayers are offered through Christ, as the medium of approach; and the Father, as the highest representative of the Godhead, is the ultimate object of the worship. Through him [Christ] we have access by one Spirit to the Father.[Ephesians 2: 18] The Spirit moves us to honor the Son and the Father: and for this purpose takes of the things of Christ and shows them to us, that we may believe in him, and through him approach the Father. In this work he acts for the whole Godhead, and therefore his drawing is ascribed to the Father: No man can come to me, except the Father, which hath sent me, draw him.[John 6: 44] When we come to Jesus Christ, the whole Godhead meets us again in the person of the Mediator: for God is in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.[2 Corinthians 5: 19] And when we address the Father, as the ultimate object of our worship, the whole Godhead is there, and receives our adorations. In the covenant of grace, the triune God is so presented to the view of the believer, that he may worship without distraction of thought: with full confidence of acceptance, and with a clear perception that God is to him all and in all. In the retirement of the closet, the devotional man addresses God as present in the secret place, and holds communion with him, as a friend near at hand. When he comes forth into the busy world, he sees God all around him, in the heavens, and in the earth; and holds converse with him in this different manifestation of himself. When he lifts his thoughts to the high and holy place where God’s throne is, and prays, Our Father which art in heaven, his mind is directed to the highest and most glorious manifestation of the Deity. In all this he suffers no distraction of thought. The same omnipresent One is addressed, whether conceived to be in the closet, or in the world, or in the highest heavens. With equal freedom from distraction we may worship the Infinite One, whether we approach him as the Holy Spirit, operating on the heart; or as the Son, the Mediator between God and men; or as the Father, representing the full authority and majesty of the Godhead. We worship God, and God alone, whether our devotions are directed to the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit; for the divine essence, undivided and indivisible, belongs to each of the three persons.
To guard against mistake, it should be observed, that the covenant which we have been considering is not identical with the new covenant of which Paul speaks in the epistle to the Hebrews. The latter is made, according to the prophecy which he quotes, with the house of Israel and the house of Judah;[Hebrews 8: 8] whereas the covenant of which we have treated, is not made with man. There is, however, a close connection between them. In the eternal covenant, promises are made to the Son, as the representative of his people: in the new covenant, these promises are made to them personally, and, in part, fulfilled to them. The promises are made to them: I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:[Hebrews 8: 10] and they are, in part, fulfilled I will put my law in their minds, and write it in their hearts.”
J. L. Dagg [a prominent Southern Baptist of the 19th century] in his Manual of Theology [pages 253-257] expands on the above discussion of the Covenant of Grace, as follows:
According to the covenant arrangement, the Son appeared in human nature, in the form of a, servant; and, after obeying unto death, was exalted by the Father to supreme dominion. The Holy Spirit also is revealed as acting in a subordinate office, being sent by the Father and by the Son. The Father alone is not presented as acting in a subordinate office; but appears as sustaining the full authority of the Godhead, sending the Son, giving him a people to be redeemed, prescribing the terms, accepting the service, rewarding and glorifying the Son, and sending the Holy Spirit. In all this the Father appears as the representative of the Godhead, in its authority and majesty. The Son also sustains a representative character. The promise of eternal life was made, before the world began, to the people of God, in him as their representative. The reconciliation between God and men is provided for by the covenant engagement between the Father and the Son; the Father acting as the representative of the Godhead, and the Son as the representative and surety of his people. The Holy Spirit concurs in this arrangement, and takes his part in the work, in harmony with the other persons of the Godhead. His peculiar office is necessary to complete the plan, and to reward the obedience of the Son by the salvation of his redeemed people. The promises of the Father to the Son include the gift of the Holy Spirit; and, therefore, the sending of the Spirit is attributed to the Son; [John 16:7] and sometimes to the Father at the petition of the Son.[John 14:16]
In this order of operation, inferiority of nature is not implied, in the subordination of office to which the Son and the Spirit voluntarily consent. The fulness of the Godhead dwells in each of the divine persons, and renders the fulfillment of the covenant infallibly sure, in all its stipulations. The Holy Spirit, in the execution of his office, dwells in believers; but he brings with him the fulness of the Godhead, so that God is in them, and they are the temple of God, and filled with the fulness of God. The Son or Word, in the execution of his office, becomes the man Jesus Christ; but the fulness of the Godhead dwells in him; so that, in his deepest humiliation he is God manifest in the flesh, God over all, blessed for ever.
The order of operation in this mysterious and wonderful economy, can be learned from divine revelation only. Here we should study it with simple faith, relying on the testimony of God. In the representation of it here exhibited, we may discover that the blessings of grace, proceeding from God, appear to originate in the Father, “of whom are all things,” to be conferred through the Son, “by whom are all things,” and by the Spirit, who is the immediate agent in bestowing them, the last in the order of operation. The approach to God, in acts of devotion, is in the reverse order. The Spirit makes intercession in the saints, moving them, as a spirit of supplication, and assisting their infirmities, when they know not what to pray for. Their prayers are offered through Christ, as the medium of approach; and the Father, as the highest representative of the Godhead, is the ultimate object of the worship. Through him [Christ] we have access by one Spirit to the Father.[Ephesians 2: 18] The Spirit moves us to honor the Son and the Father: and for this purpose takes of the things of Christ and shows them to us, that we may believe in him, and through him approach the Father. In this work he acts for the whole Godhead, and therefore his drawing is ascribed to the Father: No man can come to me, except the Father, which hath sent me, draw him.[John 6: 44] When we come to Jesus Christ, the whole Godhead meets us again in the person of the Mediator: for God is in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.[2 Corinthians 5: 19] And when we address the Father, as the ultimate object of our worship, the whole Godhead is there, and receives our adorations. In the covenant of grace, the triune God is so presented to the view of the believer, that he may worship without distraction of thought: with full confidence of acceptance, and with a clear perception that God is to him all and in all. In the retirement of the closet, the devotional man addresses God as present in the secret place, and holds communion with him, as a friend near at hand. When he comes forth into the busy world, he sees God all around him, in the heavens, and in the earth; and holds converse with him in this different manifestation of himself. When he lifts his thoughts to the high and holy place where God’s throne is, and prays, Our Father which art in heaven, his mind is directed to the highest and most glorious manifestation of the Deity. In all this he suffers no distraction of thought. The same omnipresent One is addressed, whether conceived to be in the closet, or in the world, or in the highest heavens. With equal freedom from distraction we may worship the Infinite One, whether we approach him as the Holy Spirit, operating on the heart; or as the Son, the Mediator between God and men; or as the Father, representing the full authority and majesty of the Godhead. We worship God, and God alone, whether our devotions are directed to the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit; for the divine essence, undivided and indivisible, belongs to each of the three persons.
To guard against mistake, it should be observed, that the covenant which we have been considering is not identical with the new covenant of which Paul speaks in the epistle to the Hebrews. The latter is made, according to the prophecy which he quotes, with the house of Israel and the house of Judah;[Hebrews 8: 8] whereas the covenant of which we have treated, is not made with man. There is, however, a close connection between them. In the eternal covenant, promises are made to the Son, as the representative of his people: in the new covenant, these promises are made to them personally, and, in part, fulfilled to them. The promises are made to them: I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:[Hebrews 8: 10] and they are, in part, fulfilled I will put my law in their minds, and write it in their hearts.”
I will not only read it (when I get done with grading reports) but print it out. I wish more Baptists were in tune with - or even aware of - their own heritage.
Thinking for oneself is certainly important. But so is making good use of the noble, Berean efforts of those from previous generations.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Below are a couple of paragraphs I posted on the following thread:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=64252
It demonstrates the danger to those who believe that thinking for themselves in matters of religion is preferable to relying on the Revelation of GOD.
The Dilemma of Mankind
Man is a self-conscious or rational being. He is aware of his existence. He is able to interact and communicate with other men. He recognizes something within himself that distinguishes him from other creatures. That something is his personhood. He is able to discern and perhaps contemplate that which he may call ‘good’, in a moral sense, in the world about him. He is also able to discern that which is less good even ‘evil’ in his world. [It must be recognized that there is a wide disparity between what might be termed ‘good’ and ‘evil’ among different cultural groups.]
It is a fact of history, it is a proven by man's own observations; death is the inevitable conclusion of all life, whether plant, animal, or mankind. Therefore, throughout time mankind has been faced with the inescapable knowledge of his own death. Insofar as man knows he is the only living being with the ability to reason about the past, the present, and the future, and to contemplate his own death. It is likely that rational mankind has throughout time pondered the question, why do all living things die? What is the cause and origin of Death? Where does man go to find the answer?
Faced with the inevitability of death mankind is then faced with a dilemma. If death is inevitable is the end of man’s existence as a person inevitable? Just as rational man has wrestled with the certainty of death he has likely wondered about the possibility of life after death. Philosophy has no answers. Science can only say that the ravages of disease and age take their toll on the natural ability of living cells to replicate themselves; death is the inevitable outcome of life. Is there an answer to man’s dilemma? Is the short time that man lives the sum total of his existence, other than the memories or offspring they leave behind?
If death is a mystery the possibility of existence after death is more so. Mankind in general must either accept that his existence as a person will end in death or he must speculate on the continuation of existence after death.
Man’s Response to His Dilemma
Unable to resolve the dilemma in which he finds himself mankind throughout history has, at least historically and by necessity, looked outside or beyond himself and speculated on the existence of supernatural, or in the least super human, beings for an answer to his dilemma. However, it must be conceded 1] that not all men are rational and 2] even the mind of rational man is corrupted by his nature.
What began as speculation, in time, developed into religion and subsequently worship. That man has turned to religion of some form or other is certainly verified by history. Historically man’s religion and worship has taken many forms. His gods are as varied as his imagination; ranging from the super humans of the Greco-Roman culture, to the grotesque forms of the Middle East, to nature itself. The worship of nature or the gods contained therein is perhaps the most common form of worship varying from animism among the more primitive peoples to the pantheism, often including a belief in reincarnation, of the Far East.
Modern man is not markedly different from ancient man, though his gods may be. He is certainly more elegant in defining his theology or lack thereof. Science and technology are popular modern gods. Evolution, a pseudo science, is also a popular god of the day though in reality many pagan religions espoused some primitive form of evolution. Humanism, the idea that man is sufficient unto himself and therefore claiming to be atheistic, is another currently popular god, very closely related to the gods of evolution, science, and technology. Environmentalism, a modern form of pantheism, is the god of many and appears to be rapidly gaining new adherents. Some, thinking themselves more learned or sophisticated, fall back to the position of agnosticism or ‘know nothing’. Strangely some of those who perceive themselves to be most learned and sophisticated have aligned themselves with the most unlearned and embraced the god of atheism. Yet modern man with all the advances that have been made in science, in medicine, in the quality of life, is still faced with the same dilemma that man has historically faced, the inevitability of death and the unknown that lies beyond.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=64252
It demonstrates the danger to those who believe that thinking for themselves in matters of religion is preferable to relying on the Revelation of GOD.
The Dilemma of Mankind
Man is a self-conscious or rational being. He is aware of his existence. He is able to interact and communicate with other men. He recognizes something within himself that distinguishes him from other creatures. That something is his personhood. He is able to discern and perhaps contemplate that which he may call ‘good’, in a moral sense, in the world about him. He is also able to discern that which is less good even ‘evil’ in his world. [It must be recognized that there is a wide disparity between what might be termed ‘good’ and ‘evil’ among different cultural groups.]
It is a fact of history, it is a proven by man's own observations; death is the inevitable conclusion of all life, whether plant, animal, or mankind. Therefore, throughout time mankind has been faced with the inescapable knowledge of his own death. Insofar as man knows he is the only living being with the ability to reason about the past, the present, and the future, and to contemplate his own death. It is likely that rational mankind has throughout time pondered the question, why do all living things die? What is the cause and origin of Death? Where does man go to find the answer?
Faced with the inevitability of death mankind is then faced with a dilemma. If death is inevitable is the end of man’s existence as a person inevitable? Just as rational man has wrestled with the certainty of death he has likely wondered about the possibility of life after death. Philosophy has no answers. Science can only say that the ravages of disease and age take their toll on the natural ability of living cells to replicate themselves; death is the inevitable outcome of life. Is there an answer to man’s dilemma? Is the short time that man lives the sum total of his existence, other than the memories or offspring they leave behind?
If death is a mystery the possibility of existence after death is more so. Mankind in general must either accept that his existence as a person will end in death or he must speculate on the continuation of existence after death.
Man’s Response to His Dilemma
Unable to resolve the dilemma in which he finds himself mankind throughout history has, at least historically and by necessity, looked outside or beyond himself and speculated on the existence of supernatural, or in the least super human, beings for an answer to his dilemma. However, it must be conceded 1] that not all men are rational and 2] even the mind of rational man is corrupted by his nature.
What began as speculation, in time, developed into religion and subsequently worship. That man has turned to religion of some form or other is certainly verified by history. Historically man’s religion and worship has taken many forms. His gods are as varied as his imagination; ranging from the super humans of the Greco-Roman culture, to the grotesque forms of the Middle East, to nature itself. The worship of nature or the gods contained therein is perhaps the most common form of worship varying from animism among the more primitive peoples to the pantheism, often including a belief in reincarnation, of the Far East.
Modern man is not markedly different from ancient man, though his gods may be. He is certainly more elegant in defining his theology or lack thereof. Science and technology are popular modern gods. Evolution, a pseudo science, is also a popular god of the day though in reality many pagan religions espoused some primitive form of evolution. Humanism, the idea that man is sufficient unto himself and therefore claiming to be atheistic, is another currently popular god, very closely related to the gods of evolution, science, and technology. Environmentalism, a modern form of pantheism, is the god of many and appears to be rapidly gaining new adherents. Some, thinking themselves more learned or sophisticated, fall back to the position of agnosticism or ‘know nothing’. Strangely some of those who perceive themselves to be most learned and sophisticated have aligned themselves with the most unlearned and embraced the god of atheism. Yet modern man with all the advances that have been made in science, in medicine, in the quality of life, is still faced with the same dilemma that man has historically faced, the inevitability of death and the unknown that lies beyond.
OldRegular,
Golly you gave me a lot of reading.... But I am looking for a simple explanation, preferably in your own words.
What is the difference between sovereign grace and the Biblical Grace of God?
From post 104 you say:
The doctrine of the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation is clearly expressed in the Covenant of Grace.
So now I also ask (in your own words please) what is the Covenant of Grace and where is it found in scripture?
I have, in the past, done some study dealing with the 8 covenants; however I do not recall this one.
As with many long writings there always seems to be a premise, and if the author can get the reader to accept the premise; then the author can make his point based on the premise.
I have this habit of first checking the soundness of the premise before I continue. (Usually my continuation is based on my take of the soundness of the premise.)
This is perhaps why I stopped reading when I came to this statement:
1. God the Father foreknew and chose a people to be His own before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4].
Ephesians 1:4 (King James Version)
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
It appears to me the verse is saying that before the foundation of the world, God chose what He would do with those who are in Christ.
And it goes on to say that God chose that He would find those in Christ to be holy and without blame before Him in love.
Your C/P seems to be saying something to the effect that before the foundation of the world God chose who would be placed in Christ.
IMHO this goes completely against the nature of God in that it would also require God to be choosing who would go to Hell simply by default.
OldRegular, are you telling me that my God chose who would go to Hell?
Golly you gave me a lot of reading.... But I am looking for a simple explanation, preferably in your own words.
What is the difference between sovereign grace and the Biblical Grace of God?
From post 104 you say:
The doctrine of the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation is clearly expressed in the Covenant of Grace.
So now I also ask (in your own words please) what is the Covenant of Grace and where is it found in scripture?
I have, in the past, done some study dealing with the 8 covenants; however I do not recall this one.
As with many long writings there always seems to be a premise, and if the author can get the reader to accept the premise; then the author can make his point based on the premise.
I have this habit of first checking the soundness of the premise before I continue. (Usually my continuation is based on my take of the soundness of the premise.)
This is perhaps why I stopped reading when I came to this statement:
1. God the Father foreknew and chose a people to be His own before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4].
Ephesians 1:4 (King James Version)
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
It appears to me the verse is saying that before the foundation of the world, God chose what He would do with those who are in Christ.
And it goes on to say that God chose that He would find those in Christ to be holy and without blame before Him in love.
Your C/P seems to be saying something to the effect that before the foundation of the world God chose who would be placed in Christ.
IMHO this goes completely against the nature of God in that it would also require God to be choosing who would go to Hell simply by default.
OldRegular, are you telling me that my God chose who would go to Hell?
Last edited by a moderator:
Those who don't think for themselves transgress the command of God.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
A four year old can copy and paste.
Robert Snow
New Member
Very well put! Thank you John. :thumbsup:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Why is it that Freewillers are so afraid of the Sovereignty of GOD?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
olegig
I was preparing a response to your last post when I took a break for supper. I then began to wonder if wou were just trying to pull my chain like DHK. If you are really serious then I suggest that you read my posts or get one of the books I recommended.
I will respond to one comment. You say:
I don't know about your god. I will say this. The only GOD I know is the one true GOD revealed in Scripture. That Scripture tells me all mankind are deserving of the lake of fire. That Scripture also tells me that GOD chose certain to Salvation before the foundation of the world: according to the good pleasure of his will.[Ephesians 1:3-5]. The remaining HE left in their fallen state. You can interpret that however your "free will" leads you!
I was preparing a response to your last post when I took a break for supper. I then began to wonder if wou were just trying to pull my chain like DHK. If you are really serious then I suggest that you read my posts or get one of the books I recommended.
I will respond to one comment. You say:
I don't know about your god. I will say this. The only GOD I know is the one true GOD revealed in Scripture. That Scripture tells me all mankind are deserving of the lake of fire. That Scripture also tells me that GOD chose certain to Salvation before the foundation of the world: according to the good pleasure of his will.[Ephesians 1:3-5]. The remaining HE left in their fallen state. You can interpret that however your "free will" leads you!
olegig said:
Revelation 17:8 -
The beast that thou sawest was , and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder , whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was , and is not, and yet is .
Revelation 20:15 - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:27 - And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth , neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
It'll be very interesting to watch how those who deny God His sovereign right to choose His people will say that these words do not really mean He chose whom He would from before the foundation of the world.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I normally don't respond to you but couldn't resist this one. You are showing your ignorance of Scripture. The passage cited says nothing about thinking for your self. It says that you are to study [and hopefully learn] what GOD is telling us.
As for thinking for yourself be careful. Scripture, which you should study, tells us:
Proverbs 14:12. There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
This is so important that GOD repeats the admonition.
Proverbs 16:25. There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
So thinking for yourself can be dangerous.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
pinoy
Some folks don't want to let GOD be GOD. Rather they want to create one in their own image or perhaps similar to some I mentioned in my post on the dilemma of man.
- Status