bb_baptist
New Member
Needless to say, I am very very deeply disappointed in you Adam. I will be praying for you.
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Why are most Jehovah's Witnesses former Roman Catholics?
- Thread starter Ps104_33
- Start date
Can you put that in context for me? Consider why the pope would say that considering what Catholics honestly believe.
</font>[/QUOTE]Ah yes, we Catholics know this stink-bomb well! Here's a link to the whole letter:
http://www.users.qwest.net/~slrorer/ReunionOfChristendom.htm
Note these words in the very next sentence: "We feel drawn to follow the example of Our Redeemer and Master, Jesus Christ..." Anybody still think the Pope is claiming here to be equal to God?
My guess is that it is just a weak translation from the Italian or Latin (for Pope Leo XIII wasn't writing in English!). It's not by any stretch a scandalous statement if we assign the perfectly reasonable meaning of "acting on behalf of, or with the authority of" to the phrase "hold the place of." But it's so much more fun to put the worst possible interpretation on the words, isn't it!
Adam, I think we talked about this a while back. At that point in time you assured me you weren't going to join. I see we were both mistaken in our assurance that it wouldn't happen!
Do keep in mind that your choices affect more than just you. If you're wrong about this you are leading your future wife and children down a false path, and you will be held responsible for that.
You're a smart guy, and I know that you will continue to study this out and learn more. I'd encourage you to take your time and fully study what you're getting into for at least a year before you start any process of joining.
I know what it's like to study something and be all excited and wanting to jump in thinking you've found some great new truth you didn't understand before and now do. The let-down hurts when you find out it's false Adam, and I can't even begin to describe what the spiritual torment you'll have when you find you have to give up all your new beliefs you were so sure of. It messes with your mind.
Step back from everything and think about it. I hope you study a lot and learn all you need to know, but keep in mind that only the bible contains pure truth, and make that the only book you get your doctrine from.
Gina
[edited by request]
[ July 02, 2003, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]
Do keep in mind that your choices affect more than just you. If you're wrong about this you are leading your future wife and children down a false path, and you will be held responsible for that.
You're a smart guy, and I know that you will continue to study this out and learn more. I'd encourage you to take your time and fully study what you're getting into for at least a year before you start any process of joining.
I know what it's like to study something and be all excited and wanting to jump in thinking you've found some great new truth you didn't understand before and now do. The let-down hurts when you find out it's false Adam, and I can't even begin to describe what the spiritual torment you'll have when you find you have to give up all your new beliefs you were so sure of. It messes with your mind.
Step back from everything and think about it. I hope you study a lot and learn all you need to know, but keep in mind that only the bible contains pure truth, and make that the only book you get your doctrine from.
Gina
[edited by request]
[ July 02, 2003, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]
Brother Adam
New Member
Is there any particular reason why your being provoking webmaster? What purpose does telling me that your "disappointed" in me serve? What is it exactly that you are disappointed in?
Since most people don't understand what RCIA is, it is the "membership" class, but the first part of the classes are information classes- that is what we are going for.
Would you care to expound any?
Singer,
That's an interesting prophetic statement. I don't see it happening though. It took three years to make a Baptist out of me and I don't have any intention of making another switch. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I don't base the church I attend on intellectual arguments.
After all- everyone is right.
I'm a Baptist at heart, but I really do not like seeing any faith slandered (Catholic or Buddhist) and have spent time defending what they truly believe against what others say they believe. That doesn't make me a Catholic or a Buddhist.
God Bless.
Carson Weber
<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
Hi Singer,
You wrote, "You did agree that salvation can occur without joining a church and that the supposed "Christ established" church does not guarantee salvation. I take this as meaning there is no benefit to belong to the Catholic Church."
Your conclusion is a non sequitur, presumptuous, and a false witness. While salvation may occur for the individual outside of Christ's visible family, the likelihood is much lesser. Membership in the church cannot guarantee salvation because our salvation is dependent upon our subjectivity. The practicing, believing Catholic receives innumerable benefits that he/she otherwise would not have access to as a non-Catholic, as I noted above.
You know a good Catholic would never admit to being saved
No, I don't know that. I'm saved. I have a moral assurance of my salvation. If I do not reject Christ, I will assuredly - by reliance upon the promises of Christ - spend the rest of eternity in eternal bliss, sharing in the life of the Blessed Trinity.
You wrote, "You did agree that salvation can occur without joining a church and that the supposed "Christ established" church does not guarantee salvation. I take this as meaning there is no benefit to belong to the Catholic Church."
Your conclusion is a non sequitur, presumptuous, and a false witness. While salvation may occur for the individual outside of Christ's visible family, the likelihood is much lesser. Membership in the church cannot guarantee salvation because our salvation is dependent upon our subjectivity. The practicing, believing Catholic receives innumerable benefits that he/she otherwise would not have access to as a non-Catholic, as I noted above.
You know a good Catholic would never admit to being saved
No, I don't know that. I'm saved. I have a moral assurance of my salvation. If I do not reject Christ, I will assuredly - by reliance upon the promises of Christ - spend the rest of eternity in eternal bliss, sharing in the life of the Blessed Trinity.
Brother Adam
New Member
Gina,
Could we please keep your personal issues with me personal? I can see clearly from the post you made that your not fully aquainted with the facts, and it would not suprise me if someone asked you to come and look at this thread.
God Bless you,
Bro. Adam
Could we please keep your personal issues with me personal? I can see clearly from the post you made that your not fully aquainted with the facts, and it would not suprise me if someone asked you to come and look at this thread.
God Bless you,
Bro. Adam
If Christ gave you that authority then, yes, it would seem perfectly reasonable. Did He?Originally posted by Singer:
For Illustration purposes only:
"I hold upon this earth the place of God
Almighty."--Singer on the Baptist Board, July 1,03.
Now, MikeS, does that strike you as "perfectly reasonable" (to quote you) when
I sign my penname to it?
The Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults (RCIA) names the process by which interested persons gradually become members of the catholic Church.
This definition coupled with the statement "Teresa and I will join the "dragon's lair" starting with RCIA", in addition to a website promoting unity with Catholics topped off with multiple defensed of Catholocism strongly suggested otherwise.
Gina
Gina:
RCIA starts with classes, and no committment to join the Church. Later if the person wants to become a Catholic then they can be brought into the Catholic faith usually at Easter. Some decide not to become Catholic. Some take the classes for a couple of years before making a decision. The initial classes are called:
God Bless
Carson,
"I'm saved. I have a moral assurance of my salvation. If I do not
reject Christ, I will assuredly - by reliance upon the promises of Christ
- spend the rest of eternity in eternal bliss, sharing in the life of the
Blessed Trinity. "
How about if you reject the Catholic Church; are you still saved?
Another Catholic from another forum said:
"Catholics have moral assurance of their salvation, provided that they
live a life of continuous striving for holiness and repentance,
in cooperation with God's grace. It is the quality of good works, not quantity."
" Nowhere will you find that simply believing in Jesus will save you, but rather we
will gain eternal life through perseverence in good works."
This appears to be salvation by works. "They" have to DO something.
"I'm saved. I have a moral assurance of my salvation. If I do not
reject Christ, I will assuredly - by reliance upon the promises of Christ
- spend the rest of eternity in eternal bliss, sharing in the life of the
Blessed Trinity. "
How about if you reject the Catholic Church; are you still saved?
Another Catholic from another forum said:
"Catholics have moral assurance of their salvation, provided that they
live a life of continuous striving for holiness and repentance,
in cooperation with God's grace. It is the quality of good works, not quantity."
" Nowhere will you find that simply believing in Jesus will save you, but rather we
will gain eternal life through perseverence in good works."
This appears to be salvation by works. "They" have to DO something.
Carson Weber
<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
Hi Singer,
You asked, "How about if you reject the Catholic Church; are you still saved?"
No, I would not be saved then because such a rejection would be a grave sin. I would be rejecting the family of God, which is essentially, what I am saved for. We are saved from sin and we are saved for inclusion into God's covenant family.
Another Catholic from another forum said: "Catholics have moral assurance of their salvation, provided that they live a life of continuous striving for holiness and repentance, in cooperation with God's grace. It is the quality of good works, not quantity."
Further repentance would only be necessary for salvation if I committed a mortal sin. The continuous striving for holiness would only give an increase to my sanctification, which is the essence of my salvation. It's what I'm saved for, which is the divine life of the Blessed Trinity. My good works would be integral to my faith. In the Catholic arena, we don't create the false dichotomy between faith and works. Genuine faith is always expressed in good works. If I didn't work, then I wouldn't have faith, and if I have faith, I'll work. It's that simple. That's the whole point of James, Chapter 2.
" Nowhere will you find that simply believing in Jesus will save you, but rather we will gain eternal life through perseverence in good works."
Simple faith in Jesus won't save because simple faith - devoid of works - isn't faith at all. The so-called "fiduciary faith" of the Reformers won't save void from hope and charity. Only the type of Faith, which incorporates cognitive faith, trusting hope, and volitional charity, can save us. We only gain eternal life as an inheritance because we have become adopted sons in the Son; we can't "earn" it. However, eternal life (or "sanctifying grace") increases in us as we allow God to work in us; this is the process of sanctification. If anyone is persevering, it is God, working in us to his own good pleasure.
St. Paul gives this seemingly paradoxical truth quite nicely when he writes:
"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Phil 2:12f)
Who's working? Us? God? Well, for Paul, it's both. We're doing it, yet the ultimate principle isn't us, but the Holy Spirit.
[ July 02, 2003, 02:37 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
You asked, "How about if you reject the Catholic Church; are you still saved?"
No, I would not be saved then because such a rejection would be a grave sin. I would be rejecting the family of God, which is essentially, what I am saved for. We are saved from sin and we are saved for inclusion into God's covenant family.
Another Catholic from another forum said: "Catholics have moral assurance of their salvation, provided that they live a life of continuous striving for holiness and repentance, in cooperation with God's grace. It is the quality of good works, not quantity."
Further repentance would only be necessary for salvation if I committed a mortal sin. The continuous striving for holiness would only give an increase to my sanctification, which is the essence of my salvation. It's what I'm saved for, which is the divine life of the Blessed Trinity. My good works would be integral to my faith. In the Catholic arena, we don't create the false dichotomy between faith and works. Genuine faith is always expressed in good works. If I didn't work, then I wouldn't have faith, and if I have faith, I'll work. It's that simple. That's the whole point of James, Chapter 2.
" Nowhere will you find that simply believing in Jesus will save you, but rather we will gain eternal life through perseverence in good works."
Simple faith in Jesus won't save because simple faith - devoid of works - isn't faith at all. The so-called "fiduciary faith" of the Reformers won't save void from hope and charity. Only the type of Faith, which incorporates cognitive faith, trusting hope, and volitional charity, can save us. We only gain eternal life as an inheritance because we have become adopted sons in the Son; we can't "earn" it. However, eternal life (or "sanctifying grace") increases in us as we allow God to work in us; this is the process of sanctification. If anyone is persevering, it is God, working in us to his own good pleasure.
St. Paul gives this seemingly paradoxical truth quite nicely when he writes:
"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Phil 2:12f)
Who's working? Us? God? Well, for Paul, it's both. We're doing it, yet the ultimate principle isn't us, but the Holy Spirit.
[ July 02, 2003, 02:37 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
You asked, "How about if you reject the Catholic Church; are you still saved?"
No, I would not be saved then because such a rejection would be
a grave sin. I would be rejecting the family of God, which is essentially,
what I am saved for. We are saved from sin and we are saved for inclusion
into God's covenant family.
And this is what sets Catholicism apart from Christianity Folks !!!!
No, I would not be saved then because such a rejection would be
a grave sin. I would be rejecting the family of God, which is essentially,
what I am saved for. We are saved from sin and we are saved for inclusion
into God's covenant family.
And this is what sets Catholicism apart from Christianity Folks !!!!
Brother Adam
New Member
The Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults (RCIA) names the process by which interested persons gradually become members of the catholic Church.
This definition coupled with the statement "Teresa and I will join the "dragon's lair" starting with RCIA", in addition to a website promoting unity with Catholics topped off with multiple defensed of Catholocism strongly suggested otherwise.
Gina </font>[/QUOTE]Please don't assume next time
God Bless
Daveth,
Any one who believes the gospel, which is "the power of God unto
salvation to everyone that believeth" (Rom 1:16),
That's a good article, Daveth.
Yes, let's keep the gospel simple as we know the issues of denomination
that cloud the airwaves today were not even an issue when the bible was
written. It was simply a discussion of Jews vs Gentiles. Catholics and
Baptists were yet unheard of. We should reason in the sense that we are
not looked upon as named participants in the game of salvation. We are
all equal.
"Everyone that believeth" as your verse goes.........Believe what, we might ask?
Believe the Gospel of course. What is the Gospel? It's the good news of Jesus
and His mission on earth which we all well know. It is not harbored in the
Presbyterian Church or confined to Catholicism or limited by denomination.
The Gospel was offered to Jews AND Gentiles...everyone / with no mention of
denomination.
We might ask..."What is expected of us as human beings"?
The answer is within St John 6:29
This is the work of God; that ye believe on Him whom He has sent
Simple Faith...Yeah !!!!!
Any one who believes the gospel, which is "the power of God unto
salvation to everyone that believeth" (Rom 1:16),
That's a good article, Daveth.
Yes, let's keep the gospel simple as we know the issues of denomination
that cloud the airwaves today were not even an issue when the bible was
written. It was simply a discussion of Jews vs Gentiles. Catholics and
Baptists were yet unheard of. We should reason in the sense that we are
not looked upon as named participants in the game of salvation. We are
all equal.
"Everyone that believeth" as your verse goes.........Believe what, we might ask?
Believe the Gospel of course. What is the Gospel? It's the good news of Jesus
and His mission on earth which we all well know. It is not harbored in the
Presbyterian Church or confined to Catholicism or limited by denomination.
The Gospel was offered to Jews AND Gentiles...everyone / with no mention of
denomination.
We might ask..."What is expected of us as human beings"?
The answer is within St John 6:29
This is the work of God; that ye believe on Him whom He has sent
Simple Faith...Yeah !!!!!
Daveth:
Sister Elizabeth’s spirituality was not only Trinitarian...devotion to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit within her, she was also very devoted to Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament and to Our Lady, especially to the Mother of Sorrows. She once wrote that "nothing so reveals the great love of the Sacred Heart as the Holy Eucharist".
"O my God, Trinity Whom I adore, help me to become utterly forgetful of self, that I may establish myself in You, as changeless and as calm as though my soul were already in eternity. May nothing disturb my peace nor draw me forth from You, O my immutable Lord, may I penetrate more deeply every moment into the depths of Your Mystery. Give peace to my soul: make it Your heaven, Your cherished dwelling place. Your home of rest. Let me never leave You there alone, but keep me there all absorbed in You in living faith, adoring You, wholly yielded up to Your creative action.
"O my Christ Whom I love, crucified by love, would that I might be the bride of Your Heart; would that I might cover You with glory, and love You- until I die of very love! Yet I realize my weakness, and beg You to help me. Immerse me in Yourself: possess me wholly: substitute Yourself for me, that my life may be but a radiance of Your life. Enter my soul as Restorer and as Savior. O Eternal Word, Utterance of my God, I long to pass my life listening to You, to become docile, that I may learn all from You. Through all darkness, all privations, all powerlessness, I yearn to keep my eyes ever fixed on You and to dwell beneath Your great light. O my beloved Star, so fascinate me that I can no longer withdraw from Your radiance.
"O Consuming Fire, Spirit of Love, come down upon me, and reproduce in me, as it were, an incarnation of the Word, that I may be to Him another humanity in which He renews all His Mystery. And You, O Father, bend toward Your poor little creature, cover her with Your shadow, behold in her none other than the ‘Well beloved in Whom You are well pleased."
O my Three, my All, my Beatitude, infinite Solitude, Immensity in which I lose myself, I yield myself to You as Your child. Immerse Yourself in me, that I may be immersed in You until I depart to contemplate in Your light the abyss of Your greatness. Amen."
Having a simple child-like faith is what Jesus Christ teaches. This does not mean that we are not to use our intellect and reason. Many of the greatest minds of science, theology, and philosophy, had very child-like simple faith.
St. Elizabeth’s simple faith was very much a model for all Christians. She loved and adored the Trinity. She believed deeply in the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist, she had great devotion to our Lord’s Blessed Mother, she confessed her sins to her confessor, she studied Holy Scripture and saw in it the Church that Jesus Christ established. She lived her Catholic faith. The simplicity of her faith is very Catholic.
God Bless
Using Blessed Elizabeth of the Trinity 1880-1906 is a perfect example of simple faith as taught by Jesus Christ. As a Carmelite nun she studied Holy Scripture and found in the writings of St. Paul her vocation or mission. She would be a "Praise of Glory" praising the Trinity dwelling within her offering a ceaseless "Sanctus".
Sister Elizabeth’s spirituality was not only Trinitarian...devotion to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit within her, she was also very devoted to Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament and to Our Lady, especially to the Mother of Sorrows. She once wrote that "nothing so reveals the great love of the Sacred Heart as the Holy Eucharist".
"O my God, Trinity Whom I adore, help me to become utterly forgetful of self, that I may establish myself in You, as changeless and as calm as though my soul were already in eternity. May nothing disturb my peace nor draw me forth from You, O my immutable Lord, may I penetrate more deeply every moment into the depths of Your Mystery. Give peace to my soul: make it Your heaven, Your cherished dwelling place. Your home of rest. Let me never leave You there alone, but keep me there all absorbed in You in living faith, adoring You, wholly yielded up to Your creative action.
"O my Christ Whom I love, crucified by love, would that I might be the bride of Your Heart; would that I might cover You with glory, and love You- until I die of very love! Yet I realize my weakness, and beg You to help me. Immerse me in Yourself: possess me wholly: substitute Yourself for me, that my life may be but a radiance of Your life. Enter my soul as Restorer and as Savior. O Eternal Word, Utterance of my God, I long to pass my life listening to You, to become docile, that I may learn all from You. Through all darkness, all privations, all powerlessness, I yearn to keep my eyes ever fixed on You and to dwell beneath Your great light. O my beloved Star, so fascinate me that I can no longer withdraw from Your radiance.
"O Consuming Fire, Spirit of Love, come down upon me, and reproduce in me, as it were, an incarnation of the Word, that I may be to Him another humanity in which He renews all His Mystery. And You, O Father, bend toward Your poor little creature, cover her with Your shadow, behold in her none other than the ‘Well beloved in Whom You are well pleased."
O my Three, my All, my Beatitude, infinite Solitude, Immensity in which I lose myself, I yield myself to You as Your child. Immerse Yourself in me, that I may be immersed in You until I depart to contemplate in Your light the abyss of Your greatness. Amen."
Having a simple child-like faith is what Jesus Christ teaches. This does not mean that we are not to use our intellect and reason. Many of the greatest minds of science, theology, and philosophy, had very child-like simple faith.
St. Elizabeth’s simple faith was very much a model for all Christians. She loved and adored the Trinity. She believed deeply in the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist, she had great devotion to our Lord’s Blessed Mother, she confessed her sins to her confessor, she studied Holy Scripture and saw in it the Church that Jesus Christ established. She lived her Catholic faith. The simplicity of her faith is very Catholic.
God Bless