Why are most Jehovah's Witnesses former Roman Catholics?

[3AngelsMom]

Kathryn,

Don't you want to show us the Athanasian one?

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
And I would disagree that they believe in the death of Christ They don't believe that He really died. They believe that His 'human' part died, but that 'God the Son' didn't die.

They don't believe He died.

Kelly, are you saying that you believe that Jesus's Spirit died, as well as His flesh, at the crucifixion?

Ron

 

[AdoptedDaughter]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Adam:
That was a quote of Kelly's earlier post, btw, Catholics believe Christ died on the cross.

You know you can edit your posts, right? </font>[/QUOTE]Sure...as long as it's within 15 minutes of the original post. Anything after 15 minutes of your post you cannot edit it anymore.

 

[Carson Weber]

Don't you want to show us the Athanasian one?

Kelly, are you making the accusation that the Athanasian creed intended to change the teaching of the Church universal that Christ died for our salvation?

 

[Kathryn]

Kelly: the faith that we are to contend for is the whole body of faith. Your beliefs are the best illustration I have seen that “faith alone” and “Sola Scriptura” don't work. As in your case, one can accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and have no idea who Jesus Christ is. Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God, true God and true man. He is the second person of the Holy Trinity, born of a virgin, who suffered, died, and was buried, He rose from the dead. He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. This is only the basics. Jesus has revealed much more.

As a Protestant you interpret the Bible for yourself and have taken Jesus Christ as your Savior. No one taught you that you also have to believe everything that has been revealed to us by God. You tell me that the five words in Holy Scripture “ My Lord and my God” are only five words. They are five words of God…the word of God. Jesus Christ left his Church with the Commission to go out and baptize and teach all he has commanded…..not tell people to just have “faith alone” that he is their Savior.

Now, if you will trust Jesus Christ as your Saviour, pray this simple prayer from your heart:

Dear Lord Jesus, I know I am a sinner, and I deserve to pay my own sin debt, but I do believe that You died for me to pay the debt that I owe. Today, the best I know how, I trust You as my Saviour. I will depend on You from this moment on for my salvation. Amen.

Nothing about the belief Jesus Christ is true God and true man, belief in the Trinity, belief in the incarnation, belief He was born of a virgin, etc. ?????? According to this “faith alone” is enough. Many who believe themselves to be saved, don’t even know who Jesus Christ really is…. Of course this is a harder sell telling someone that they need to believe Jesus Christ is really the Son of the Living God, the second person of the Trinity, born of a virgin. Faith is accepting the whole thing….. and everything Jesus Christ taught and passed on to His Church. This is what St. Thomas believed, when he said, “My Lord, and my God”. Thomas then believed everything Jesus had taught because he saw with his own eyes, what Jesus taught was all true. We like Thomas are to believe it all, and like Jesus says we are blessed because we believe it all, and have not seen. Jesus did not tell Thomas not to call Him God. Jesus accepted the title of God.

Jesus left a teaching Church, not a message just to take Him as our Savior with no knowledge of who He really is. This is the tragedy of personal interpretation of Holy Scripture and evangelists who claim all one has to do is “accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior”. I thank God every day for blessing me with His Church. The confusion that is inherent in Protestantism is sad. Jesus prayed that His Church would be one. One Lord, one faith, one baptism.....there is one deposit of faith that God has revealed.

May the Lord open the eyes of your heart that you can like St. Thomas say “My Lord and My God”. Five little words, yet they are the words of God. Remember St. Thomas is one of the good guys, one of the foundation stones of the Church, with Jesus Christ as the cornerstone.

God Bless

P.S. I am going out of town for the weekend, but look forward to getting back with you.

 

[Carson Weber]

Coincidentally, today is the feast day of St. Thomas the Apostle.

 

[Brother Adam]

Simple, yet deeply profound.

Very well said Kathryn.

 

[NewReformation]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Adam:
And I would disagree that they believe in the death of Christ

They don't believe that He really died. They believe that His 'human' part died, but that 'God the Son' didn't die.

They don't believe He died.

God Bless,
Kelly </font>[/QUOTE]I believe that the majority of Christians(Catholic and Protestant) happen to believe that Christ('The God the Son part') spent the time his body was in the grave preaching to 'the spirits in prison'. 1 Peter 3:18-20

NewReformation

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by NewReformation:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Adam:
And I would disagree that they believe in the death of Christ

They don't believe that He really died. They believe that His 'human' part died, but that 'God the Son' didn't die.

They don't believe He died.

God Bless,
Kelly </font>[/QUOTE]I believe that the majority of Christians(Catholic and Protestant) happen to believe that Christ('The God the Son part') spent the time his body was in the grave preaching to 'the spirits in prison'. 1 Peter 3:18-20

NewReformation </font>[/QUOTE]If you analyze carefully what Kelly said, you can understand what part of Kelly's problem is. She has a warped definition of death. She can't define it properly. Did Christ die? Of course He died. But what is meant by death? Death always refers to the body, and not the spirit. The spirit lives on forever--whether speaking of Christ or man. Paul, speaking of the believer said: "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." Kelly doesn't believe this because she believes in soul sleep. She doesn't believe Christ actually died because she believes the soul would have had to die (or according to her "sleep" until the resurrection. But nothing of the sort is taught in the Bible and has no Scriptural foundation. The Spirit lives on forever. It does not sleep. It goes straight to Heaven, or to Hell. In the case of Christ it was different, for the resurrection did not take place until the third day. But that doesn't mean his spirit was "dead" or sleeping. He went to Paradise. The thief was there too, as He promised he would be. He then led all those Old Testament saints into Heaven after proclaiming His victory to them. There is no soul sleep. The soul or spirit never dies. It does not sleep. It will go to either Heaven or Hell and there live on in eternity in either a state of separation from God (Hell) or in a place in the presence of God (Heaven). Both await the Resurrection.
DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:
She doesn't believe Christ actually died

Yeah, THAT'S a LIE if I ever saw one.

Maybe you should stick to explaining your OWN beliefs and let me explain mine.

Thanks

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
She doesn't believe Christ actually died

Yeah, THAT'S a LIE if I ever saw one.

Maybe you should stick to explaining your OWN beliefs and let me explain mine.

Thanks </font>[/QUOTE]"Can God die? No it is impossible for God to die."
Doesn't your own website say something very close to that?
DHK

 

[DHK]

1Timothy 6:14-16
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Who is verse 16 speaking of? The word "Who" refers right back to "King of Kings and Lord of lords," which in turn refers right back to "the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ" The entirety of verse 16 is speaking of our Lord Jesus Christ. This should be obvious to even the most casual of readers. Here is a quote taken from Kelly's own website at:
http://www.smyrna.org/

Can God the Father die?

No. This is impossible. He cannot die under any circumstances. He cannot be made into a mortal being.

Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Timothy 6:16)

It is interesting what proof text she uses in defense of this.
DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:
1Timothy 6:14-16
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Who is verse 16 speaking of? The word "Who" refers right back to "King of Kings and Lord of lords," which in turn refers right back to "the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ" The entirety of verse 16 is speaking of our Lord Jesus Christ. This should be obvious to even the most casual of readers. Here is a quote taken from Kelly's own website at:
http://www.smyrna.org/

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Can God the Father die?

No. This is impossible. He cannot die under any circumstances. He cannot be made into a mortal being.

Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Timothy 6:16)

It is interesting what proof text she uses in defense of this.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]That's not my website (it is a friends), and the subject which verse 16 is speaking about is shown in verse 15. "who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;"
Verse 16 ALONE tells us who it is talking about, and unless you wish to deny that anyone has ever seen Jesus, you must agree that it is NOT talking ABOUT Jesus. "dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see"
No man has seen.

Simple.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
And I would disagree that they believe in the death of Christ They don't believe that He really died. They believe that His 'human' part died, but that 'God the Son' didn't die.

They don't believe He died.

Kelly, are you saying that you believe that Jesus's Spirit died, as well as His flesh, at the crucifixion?

Ron </font>[/QUOTE]His Spirit went back to God who gave it. When Jesus died, He slept in the tomb awaiting His resurrection, just as we will sleep awaiting our resurrection.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Don't you want to show us the Athanasian one?

Kelly, are you making the accusation that the Athanasian creed intended to change the teaching of the Church universal that Christ died for our salvation?

Well, that wasn't my intention with my post, but now that you mention it, the Athanasian Creed does have MUCH more to say than the first 2. All I was saying was that if she was going to post the first 2 why not post the last one!

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[Brother Adam]

Athanasian Creed

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;

2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

42. and shall give account of their own works.

43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

Okay, if you insist.

Certianly I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power to bring every man unto salvation.

 

[Daveth]

Hi Brother Adam, Question. When refer to as catholic in the Creeds, is that a small c or large C? As in all Christians or as in one select group of Christians. Thanks

 

[Carson Weber]

Dave,

The renowned Protestant Early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly may shed light on this when he writes:

"As regards ‘Catholic’ . . . in the latter half of the second century at latest, we find it conveying the suggestion that the Catholic is the true Church as distinct from heretical congregations (cf., e.g., Muratorian Canon). . . . What these early Fathers were envisaging was almost always the empirical, visible society; they had little or no inkling of the distinction which was later to become important between a visible and an invisible Church" (Early Christian Doctrines, 190–191).

 

[Singer]

And the Mormons say they are the 'one true church'
And the JWs say they are the 'one true church'
And the Jews say they are the 'one true church'
And the Muslims say they are the 'one true church'
And the SDAs say they are the 'one true church'

And Jesus must be sad !

 

[3AngelsMom]

Singer,

Correction.

The SDA claims that they are the REMNANT of God, not the One true Church.

We believe that the Church of God, is a worldwide body of believers.

Get it right next time!!