Why are most Jehovah's Witnesses former Roman Catholics?

[Brother Adam]

I know Catholics like to make that claim that everything points to the Catholic Church from their insistance that "The purpose of creation was the Catholic Church" and that Jesus Himself was a Catholic and the Catholic Church"

I to me it is important to understand why people say the things they do. It may seem utter nonsense to us, but digging deeper there may be a sound explaination (shoot, a long time ago a guy raising from the dead and we having to drink his blood and eat his flesh sounded nuts)


"is the bride of Christ etc."

The church (whatever we decide that is) is the Bride of Christ, that is straight from the Bible.

"That fallacy is no better than claiming that two kids knocking rocks around with a stick in a cave in Madagascar in 2000 BC was the forerunner of Golf."

Say What?

There's no proof that Matt:16:18 reflects anything to do with Catholicism.

But there is also no proof by the verse alone that it doesn't.

Talk about the wrongs in using one verse to establish a biblical proof..........
Look what Catholicism has done with that verse. It is the sole foundation
of their claims and without it ...all else fails to make sense to them.

Actually, I think a more famously used verse is Peter being handed the keys to the kingdom as far as Catholicism goes, but I would have to disagree with you that everything in Catholicism falls on that verse alone.

Now consider that they are wrong in that claim and see where the rest of their claims go.

Consider, sure, but I wouldn't just assume it.

The bible does not point to the Catholic Church.

But the Bible does point to a Savior who built a Church right?

That's merely a distraction
from Christ. We are warned that there will be an Anti-Christ...right?

Yes, but how is the Catholic Church a distraction from Christ? From what I have read- and this is just the knowledge I have mind you, everything about the Catholic liturgy points directly back to Christ, from the rosary to the Eucharist to the prayers.

Thanks for your discussion!

 

[Singer]

(Adam)
But the Bible does point to a Savior who built a Church right?

(Singer)
Emphatically NO...NO and NO !
Don't fall for that lie, Adam.
There are people deceived by the millions who are thinking just that.
I grew up in a 2x2 Sect (look it up on Google) who claims to have the original
faith and mode of dress, doctrine and worship that Jesus started. I've talked
with Mormons who pleaded that I would see their church as the "One true church".
Catholicism makes that same claim that Jesus started their church. If you heed
to one of those (amongst many others), when would you ever know that you'd
found the right one?

Jesus didn't come to start a church. He came to save that which was lost
through His own sacrifice whereby grace would be granted to undeserving
people who believed in his purpose.


Emphasize his purpose and it does not center on any church.
God's church is the body of believers of many denominations that existed
prior to and since Catholicsm entered history.

Doesn't that sound a little ridiculous to hear that Jesus was a Catholic ?

(Adam)

Yes, but how is the Catholic Church a distraction from Christ? From what I
have read- and this is just the knowledge I have mind you, everything about
the Catholic liturgy points directly back to Christ, from the rosary to the Eucharist
to the prayers.

(Singer)

Christ via Catholicism...(I might add).
Catholics will be the first to tell you that they give no credit to ''accepting the Lord'',
that they view nonCatholics as imperfect and stubborn. If you're not saved yet,
Adam, you won't gain any favor with God by changing churches. God sees that
effort as filthy rags anyhow. If the CAtholic Church is wrong....then there's no
need to join it. If it's right.....then it's only the "saved by grace through faith"
that you might find within it that is right. You also have that in your Baptist
church, so there's still no need to change.

If Jesus can't save you, the RCC can't take His place.

 

[Brother Adam]

"Emphatically NO...NO and NO !
Don't fall for that lie, Adam."

If Christ did not start the Christian Church what did he mean when he told Paul that "upon this rock I will build my Church"?

"Jesus didn't come to start a church. He came to save that which was lost
through His own sacrifice whereby grace would be granted to undeserving
people who believed in his purpose."

Perhaps he had more than one purpose for coming if he said he was going to build a church?

"Catholics will be the first to tell you" that they give no credit to ''accepting the Lord

What do you mean by "giving no credit to?" What I have been taught its that faith in the Lord is one part of being a Christian. The most vital and essential part, but only a part. Note that faith without works is dead. And that faith without love is nothing. They do indeed give credit to praying to recieve the Lord, but they believe there is a greater fullness to the faith that can be known.

that they view nonCatholics as imperfect and stubborn.

This might be true to a certian extent, but isn't this more a matter of speculation than doctrine?

If you're not saved yet, Adam

I'm a baptized confessed Christian if that is what your asking.

you won't gain any favor with God by changing churches.

Will we gain favor by seeking to hold truth in our beliefs over error?

God sees that
effort as filthy rags anyhow.

Yes, but isn't this refering to trying to gain entrance to the kingdom by our own merits?

If the CAtholic Church is wrong....then there's no need to join it. If it's right.....then it's only the "saved by grace through faith" that you might find within it that is right. You also have that in your Baptist
church, so there's still no need to change.

I guess I'm not too sure what your getting at. They believe we are saved "by grace working through faith in love."

If Jesus can't save you, the RCC can't take His place.

Amen to that one! I believe Catholics would likely echo that. Without Christ we're in a whole heap of trouble.

 

[Singer]

Perhaps he had more than one purpose for coming if he said he was
going to build a church?

That seems like an unlikely feat for the creator of the heavens and the earth...
to come to earth to create some substandard mode of worship. Isn't faith itself
a greater feature than a Church ?

Faith was what saved OT people...faith in God.
Faith is what saves yet today....faith in Jesus as the propitiator for our sins.
Doesn't it sound even a little foolish to think that membership in a certain
church body would override that?

Think about this:

1) A person can be saved without ever joining a church.
2) Many a churchgoer can be faithful to their church but yet lost.
3) Even if Christ did establish a church, does membership in it guarantee salvation?
4) If Christ established a church that would be the means to salvation, why didn't
He name it?
5) Catholics claim "Pillar and Foundation" to refer to their church; yet membership
within that supposed "pillar and foundation" doesn't guarantee ANTHING
6) Switching to the Catholic Faith would be a futile effort to gain approval with God.
because God has already determined that mankind has failed Him ....that's why
He sent His Son.
7) "Whosoever has the Son, has Life" (regardless of denomination).
8) There was faith and salvation granted by God Before Catholicism.
9) God never mentioned His future plan to reveal the Catholic Church in the O.T.
10) The word "Church" never appeared in the Old Testament.
11) If the Catholic Church was the reason for creation, wouldn't all of the
inspired writers of the bible have revealed at least a hint of it?
12) Christ came to save the lost and He was actively doing that before any
Pope decided to help Him.

 

[Carson Weber]

Singer,

What do you suppose Jesus meant by the following?

"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the [invisible?] church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Mt 18:15-18).

Also, consider that the following verse directly succeeds this passage:

"Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

In Jesus' day, it was Jewish law that in order to deliver a judgement against someone who had committed a crime, 2 or 3 witnesses were necessary to bring about the conviction and deliver the sentence against the criminal:

"On the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses he that is to die shall be put to death; a person shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness" (Dt. 17:6).

In effect, Jesus' statement pertains to his presence in the midst of the Church's legislative authority (which has the power to bind and loose, which is a metaphor for Rabbinic authority), confirming the testimony of 2 or 3 witnesses:

"But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses." (Mt 20:16)

If one is going to treat another Christian "as a Gentile or a tax-collector", that's a pretty hefty action! That's excommunication! And, excommunication isn't really excommunication unless if such a decision has Christ confirming the excommunication as the true authority.

And consider what Saint Paul writes about the recalcitrant sinner among the Corinthians:

"[Y]ou are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (1 Cor 5:5).

Or about two men when writing to Timothy:

"among them Hymenae'us and Alexander, whom I have delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme" (1 Tim 1:20).

 

[Carson Weber]

1) A person can be saved without ever joining a church.

True.

2) Many a churchgoer can be faithful to their church but yet lost.

True.

3) Even if Christ did establish a church, does membership in it guarantee salvation?

No.

(4) If Christ established a church that would be the means to salvation, why didn't
He name it?

Names are superfluous. Anyone could "call" themselves by that same name then. Would that automatically make them the true Church?

Jesus instituted the teaching office of the Apostles united around Peter, and their successors are easily identified. That way, irregardless of such a fleeting title as a name, the Church would be easily identifiable according to apostolic succession, which guards the deposit of faith (1 Tim 6:20).

5) Catholics claim "Pillar and Foundation" to refer to their church; yet membership
within that supposed "pillar and foundation" doesn't guarantee anything

Oh, but it does guarantee two things. It guarantees that you are receiving infallible teaching by way of doctrine and viable life in the sacraments. What you do with that teaching and font of life, well, that's subjective.

(6) Switching to the Catholic Faith would be a futile effort to gain approval with God.
because God has already determined that mankind has failed Him ....that's why He sent His Son.

Becoming Catholic has nothing to do with trying to merit eternal salvation before God. It's about joining the Family of God (what Paul calls the "household of God") where salvation is given gratis as an inheritance. It's about receiving true doctrine and efficatious life.

7) "Whosoever has the Son, has Life" (regardless of denomination).

What whosoever has the Son, has a share in the Familia Dei. You cannot separate your sonship in the only Son of God from membership in his family.

8) There was faith and salvation granted by God Before Catholicism.

Agreed.

9) God never mentioned His future plan to reveal the Catholic Church in the O.T.

The New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old is revealed in the New. The Catholic Church is prefigured all over the Old Testament, and I can give you several texts that show this forth splendidly. First, I suggest Loving the Church by Christoph Cardinal Schonborn, the cardinal archbishop of Vienna, Austria (and a good friend of our university as well as the general editor of the Catechism).

10) The word "Church" never appeared in the Old Testament.

So what? "Church" is an english word derived from the German "Kirche" derived from the Greek "ekklesia", which is ordinarily emplowed as the equivalent of the Hebrew "qahal". This Hebrew term refers to the entire community of the children of Israel viewed in their religious aspect in the OT.

11) If the Catholic Church was the reason for creation, wouldn't all of the
inspired writers of the bible have revealed at least a hint of it?

Its quite an unreasonable expectation to expect for every book of the Bible to hint at one particular truth. The question at hand is whether this truth is found in the deposit of divine revelation such as in Sacred Scripture, which it is.

In the pilgrim Church, the plan of creation already begins to become a reality; in the perfected Church, creation will have attained its goal. The perfected creation will be the perfected Church. Then will the true meaning of the Church be displayed: communion with God, communion among men in God. This is the purpose for God creating, to renew all things in Christ.

12) Christ came to save the lost and He was actively doing that before any
Pope decided to help Him.

And the Church became extant the moment Christ was conceived in the womb of Mary, for the Church is none other than Christ's supernatural family. The office of the papacy is merely a servant, an instrument of the Church, which Jesus Christ established during his earthly ministry in order to serve as the visible head of the Church for the invisible head who reigns at the right hand of the Father. The Church is not to be equated with the papacy, for the papacy will be nonexistant after the Second Coming, when the Church will continue to live in all its splendour in the life of the Blessed Trinity for all eternity.

 

[Brother Adam]

Originally posted by Singer:
[QB] Perhaps he had more than one purpose for coming if he said he was
going to build a church?

That seems like an unlikely feat for the creator of the heavens and the earth...
to come to earth to create some substandard mode of worship. Isn't faith itself
a greater feature than a Church ?

Faith was what saved OT people...faith in God.
Faith is what saves yet today....faith in Jesus as the propitiator for our sins.
Doesn't it sound even a little foolish to think that membership in a certain
church body would override that?

Who claimed that church takes the place of faith? Isn't your argument kindof empty?

Think about this:

1) A person can be saved without ever joining a church.

True, but this is not what Christ desires. The institution of the church happened for a reason.

2) Many a churchgoer can be faithful to their church but yet lost.

That's correct

3) Even if Christ did establish a church, does membership in it guarantee salvation?

Oh, he did indeed establish a church, to deny such is to deny scripture. If "church" is what non-Catholics make of it (invisible body of believers) then yes, being part of the elect garuntees salvation. If the church is also a physical entity (upon this kepha I will build my church) than no, belonging to church does not automatically garuntee salvation.

4) If Christ established a church that would be the means to salvation, why didn't
He name it?

Are you asking why didn't he establish a label? Who's to question the author of life? In antioch though they were called "Christians". And it became a Christian Church. And there was only one kind.

5) Catholics claim "Pillar and Foundation" to refer to their church; yet membership
within that supposed "pillar and foundation" doesn't guarantee ANTHING.

Membership doesn't garuntee salvation, by no means, just like membership to a Baptist Church doesn't. What they do "garuntee" though is that pillar and foundation means that the Church holds to the fulness of Truth. There are still fallible people within the walls though- kindof a "give me your weak and burdened" thing going on here.

6) Switching to the Catholic Faith would be a futile effort to gain approval with God.
because God has already determined that mankind has failed Him ....that's why
He sent His Son.

This statement honestly doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think anyone is saying that church membership gives salvation. However, Christ did establish a church and from what we can see from scripture it is an important part of a Christians life to be a member of a Christian church.

7) "Whosoever has the Son, has Life" (regardless of denomination).

Amen! Catholics go even farther to say "Whosoever has the Son, has life" (regardless of religion). Meaning that we cannot judge the secret thoughts of men.

8) There was faith and salvation granted by God Before Catholicism.

Sure, but if your going to use that argument- why aren't you a Jew?

9) God never mentioned His future plan to reveal the Catholic Church in the O.T.

The Church (whether Catholic or not) of Jesus Christ is part of the new Covenant. In the Old Testament we have Temples. Jews would go to these temples to learn and worship. This is also where God resided- here on earth, in the most holy of Holies. In the NT times Christ fulfilled the prophecies of old, God leaves the Temple, and Christ gives us the Holy Spirit and establishes the Church.

10) The word "Church" never appeared in the Old Testament.

Of course not, it's a NT term.

11) If the Catholic Church was the reason for creation, wouldn't all of the inspired writers of the bible have revealed at least a hint of it?

I'm confused. I know you've read at least some of the NT cause we have quoted it here for you. The church is mentioned in many places in the NT. Also, I think we should have a proper understanding of what it means when the Catholic Church says "it was the reason for creation" and not just take it for what we want it to mean. You wouldn't like it if I twisted your words.

12) Christ came to save the lost and He was actively doing that before any
Pope decided to help Him.

And before you decided to help him too. If the Catholic Church is right, than Peter was the first pope and helped him very early on though.

 

[Singer]

Carson,

In Jesus' day, it was Jewish law that in order to deliver a judgement against
someone who had committed a crime, 2 or 3 witnesses were necessary to
bring about the conviction and deliver the sentence against the criminal:

And that was not done in the Catholic Church then....why would such
action require the sanctions of the Catholic Church now?

In effect, Jesus' statement pertains to his presence in the midst of the
Church's legislative authority (which has the power to bind and loose, which
is a metaphor for Rabbinic authority)

Wild imagination, Carson, to interject a church that was organized after the fact
and then claim it's a metaphor to Rabbinic authority. Taking an issue before
church council works in the Methodist and Baptist Churches too.

And consider what Saint Paul writes about the recalcitrant sinner among
the Corinthians

So the Corinthians had authority to loose and bind too and they were not Catholic.
Isn't that ironic.....you say Jesus was Catholic, yet He ministered without any evidence of
that implication .

What do you suppose Jesus meant by the following? (If he refuses to listen to them,
tell it to the church)

Those were the words of Jesus ( a non Catholic) told to non Catholics in the times before
there were any Catholic Churches. How could they have possibly taken it to the Priest at
the local Catholic Church of Jerusalem....There wasn't one !

 

[Singer]

Carson,


Names are superfluous. Anyone could "call" themselves by that same name then. Would
that automatically make them the true Church?

There was no evidence of a ''true church'' either now or then. Jesus nor the
disciples ever mentioned a separation depicting one church above another...let
alone a true church.

(1 Tim 6:20).

Here, Paul is merely encouraging Timothy to keep his faith (vs 12 "fight the good
fight of faith"). What has that got to do with Catholicism? How could Paul be
telling Timothy to support and advance the Catholic Church when history proves
it did not exist at that time? And........if the Catholic Church was started somewhere
between Jesus' statement to Peter and Pauls charges to Timothy, history has failed
to record it.

It guarantees that you are receiving infallible teaching by way of doctrine and
viable life in the sacraments

I claim present salvation for which I praise God; you claim to have to enter
purgatory and be subject to other's prayers and monetary donations
before you can be declared holy whereby you gain an appointment on
judgement day to determine if you've been a good Catholic or not...what's the gain ?

Becoming Catholic has nothing to do with trying to merit eternal salvation
before God. It's about joining the Family of God (what Paul calls the "household
of God") where salvation is given gratis as an inheritance. It's about receiving
true doctrine and efficatious life.

Well thanks; that makes it simple then.
("Becoming Catholic has nothing to do with salvation")
*If I might abbreviate a bit for clarity. Salvation is given outside of the
"Family of God" also. Jesus was actively doing than when Catholicism
evolved onto the scene. He's still doing it today in spite of Catholicism.

What whosoever has the Son, has a share in the Familia Dei. You
cannot separate your sonship in the only Son of God from membership in his family.

Well how can you attach yourself to something Familia Dei that didn't
exist and claim the Family of God is something that history knows as the Catholic
Church. Again; there was a family of God before there was a Catholic Church.

8) There was faith and salvation granted by God Before Catholicism.

Agreed.

And with your admission that the Catholic Church has nothing to do with
salvation, there really is no purpose for the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is prefigured all over the Old Testament, and I
can give you several texts that show this forth splendidly.

Mormons can do the same.

10) The word "Church" never appeared in the Old Testament.

So what?

So, how could the "Church" be all important today when it was NOT in the OT..?

The perfected creation will be the perfected Church. Then will the true meaning of the
Church be displayed: communion with God, communion among men in God. This is the
purpose for God creating, to renew all things in Christ.

Agreed, but it could not be revealing the perfected Catholic Church...but the
perfected universal church of believers.

And the Church became extant the moment Christ was conceived in the womb of Mary

The wheel also became extant the moment the cavemen rolled a heavy object
over a stone, but that did not make it the birth of General Motors.

[ July 01, 2003, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: Singer ]

 

[Singer]

Adam,

You and I don't seem to congeal very well, but you need to
realize that when Catholics say "church" or read "church" in the
bible, they see "Catholic Church".

It's a whole different thing. There were churches in the early days
of Christianity; there is the church that Christ will return to redeem.
Catholics consider all mention of 'church' as pointing to them and their
denomination. Then they even go so far as to say that they are not
a denomination....(all denominations being evil...I guess).!!

Don't the claims of Catholicism scare you Just a Little Bit ? .

POPE LEO XIII"We hold upon this earth the place of God
Almighty."--Pope Leo XIII, in an Encyclical Letter, dated June
20, 1894.

 

[Brother Adam]

You and I don't seem to congeal very well, but you need to
realize that when Catholics say "church" or read "church" in the
bible, they see "Catholic Church".

Oh, I realize that. But that is what this forum should be about isn't it? Learning about each other?

It's a whole different thing. There were churches in the early days
of Christianity; there is the church that Christ will return to redeem.

Yep, some say that the Church eventually gave itself a distinctive name as to not be confused with heretical churches. Not all Churches are built the same. I'm open for correction though, with solid historical verification.

Catholics consider all mention of 'church' as pointing to them and their
denomination.

faith.

Then they even go so far as to say that they are not
a denomination....(all denominations being evil...I guess).!!

Historically it is hard to label them a denomination. Actually, extremely difficult to do so. If you mean evil as in not what God would desire, maybe. Catholics believe that they have the fulness of truth, however they believe all Christian denoms have some truth (according to what I have learned).


Don't the claims of Catholicism scare you Just a Little Bit ? .

No. Why be afraid of the Catholic Church? Where would it get you or me? Fear only God.

POPE LEO XIII"We hold upon this earth the place of God
Almighty."--Pope Leo XIII, in an Encyclical Letter, dated June
20, 1894.

Can you put that in context for me? Consider why the pope would say that considering what Catholics honestly believe.

You see, I've grown so annoyed with anti-Catholic sentiments (sometimes even downright hatred) that I finally had to go out and learn on my own, without the assumption that the Catholic Church is Satans plan incarnate- the Word of God would clearly show that it is, if it was.

And while much of the mumbo-jumbo you hear at this board and elsewhere just isn't true (and what I wish people would cut out- the untruths), there are many very good, possibly valid, objections to raise. That is where I'm at now. And if my objections are right we can label there beliefs as imperfect as ours. And I'll even share what I've found out so we can show Carson et.al. how they are wrong.

Or perhaps I'll find out differently. Either way, Teresa and I enter the "dragons lair" this fall starting with RCIA.

God Bless,
Bro. Adam

 

[Kathryn]

Or perhaps I'll find out differently. Either way, Teresa and I enter the "dragons lair" this fall starting with RCIA.

Adam:
I am very excited for you. You already have a very good grasp of what the Catholic faith is about. You will be an asset to that class. I am sure you will challenge them. What is Teresa’s faith backround?

God Bless

 

[Singer]

Yep, some say that the Church eventually gave itself a distinctive name
as to not be confused with heretical churches.

Only Catholics will say that.
Catholics believe that they have the fulness of truth, however
they believe all Christian denoms have some truth

Yes, an incomplete truth with incomplete salvation.

You see, I've grown so annoyed with anti-Catholic sentiments (sometimes
even downright hatred) that I finally had to go out and learn on my
own, without the assumption that the Catholic Church is Satans plan
incarnate- the Word of God would clearly show that it is, if it was.

Oh..that's why you act like you do !!
Sounds like the Catholic Propaganda is working on you.

POPE LEO XIII"We hold upon this earth the place of God
Almighty."--Pope Leo XIII, in an Encyclical Letter, dated June
20, 1894.

Can you put that in context for me? Consider why the pope would say that considering what Catholics honestly believe.

Well look it up...it's fact. Consider that someone might be trying to cover up for
the real truth. Every time a dirty fact like that is brought up, they either flatly deny it,
claim the writer had no authority by the RCC to make that statement, that we
misrepresented the truth or merely misunderstood what was being said. They
never fess up to it. Have you noticed that?

If the Catholic faith is no different than Non-Catholic, then what 's the fuss.?
What's the push to become Catholic. Carson has said there's no benefit to
belong to the Catholic Church/that salvation is not dependent up on it..only that
he saw it fitting to belong to God's appointed church. I don't see it as God's
appointed church, so there's no benefit for me to join.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Brother Adam:
Not all Catholics are of the Roman rite, so no that doesn't work. The appropriate label is Catholicism.

Ok, so then shouldn't the rite that is NOT really catholic, since it cannot be called 'roman' stop calling itself catholic?

Simple logic here.

catholic means universal, if a church is not in line with the 'original' ROMAN Catholic church, then it IS NOT, by logic, 'catholic'.

.......tiptoeing away

 

[Brother Adam]

Only Catholics will say that.

Apparently not.

Yes, an incomplete truth with incomplete salvation.

maybe for some. We're running a race here.

Oh..that's why you act like you do !!

Kindof like I feel for the "Baptist" propeganda huh? If one thing I do know for certain, you, nor I are infallible.

Well look it up...it's fact. Consider that someone might be trying to cover up for
the real truth. Every time a dirty fact like that is brought up, they either flatly deny it,
claim the writer had no authority by the RCC to make that statement, that we
misrepresented the truth or merely misunderstood what was being said. They
never fess up to it. Have you noticed that?

Oh! So that's why you act like you do! You've given no room to the possibility that anything Catholic could be right. Baptists can be accused of the same thing friend.

If the Catholic faith is no different than Non-Catholic, then what 's the fuss.?

It is different. The question is, where do the differences lie?

It's the push to become Catholic. Carson has said there's no benefit to
belong to the Catholic Church/that salvation is not dependent up on it..only that
he saw it fitting to belong to God's appointed church. I don't see it as God's
appointed church, so there's no benefit for me to join.

And you'd make a losy Catholic too with that attitude

Along the same lines of logic, there is no benefit for me not to be Catholic either. So what's the difference if I join up?

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by Brother Adam:
And while much of the mumbo-jumbo you hear at this board and elsewhere just isn't true (and what I wish people would cut out- the untruths), there are many very good, possibly valid, objections to raise. That is where I'm at now. And if my objections are right we can label there beliefs as imperfect as ours. And I'll even share what I've found out so we can show Carson et.al. how they are wrong.

Or perhaps I'll find out differently. Either way, Teresa and I enter the "dragons lair" this fall starting with RCIA.

God Bless,
Bro. Adam

Wow, Bro. Adam! I wish you all the best, and will pray that you find the fullness of Truth, wherever that may be. I believe it was Cardinal Newman who said that when men stop pulling away from the Catholic Church they are drawn towards it. I hope you have good catechists and not the cotton-candy type who nourish nobody!

Let me offer one more thought. As we were just mentioning "The Journey Home" program here, you might want to take a look at their 6 years of downloadable shows. You'll find the stories of many different people entering the Church on many different paths. Here's the link:
http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/frmselecrprog.asp?seriesID=-6892289&T1=journey

Oh, and be sure to let us know what you discover, both good and bad!

May your walk with Christ continue to bear fruit,

Mike

 

[CatholicConvert]

Brother Adam --

I do hope that you get a really GOOD RCIA teacher. A poor teacher or one who doesn't care is a terrible thing. When I was first considering the claims of the Catholic Faith, I finally decided that rather than listen to a multitude of voices, I should take RCIA classes. The first time, at a Roman Rite church, the priest was good, but not terrific. The biggest problem was that the information really skimmed the surface and the course was, in my opinion, too short to really do it justice.

A year later, when I had decided to follow the Catholic Faith, I took a catecheumen's class at St. Ann's, where I go now, the classes lasted 9 months and were extremely detailed.

Speaking of the church, take a look at our parish:

ST. ANN BYZANTINE CATHOLIC CHURCH

Notice the inside especially.

One of the things I became very interested in as a Presbyterian was the idea of the "kingdom" of God. When I saw the inside of this church for the first time, I realized that this was indeed a palace where the King of Glory resides. That is one of the many things I like about the Eastern Faith.

The architecture of the Eastern Church is patterned after the Temple of the Old Testament. if I could show you a drawing, I could explain it to you better, but the basis idea is that it follows the pattern of the "holiest of all", the inner court, and the court of the Gentiles. And that is the way it should be IF the Church is indeed the continuation of the kingdom which was once administered by the Jews.

An important principle is found in Hebrews 8:5 where it says that the worship forms set up in the OT were reflective of the true worship in Heaven. That is why Moses was so strongly admonished that everything had to be made in a very precise way. I think that God didn't change that idea one iota, and that our worship should continue to reflect the heavenly in all its splendor and glory.

As you investigate the Catholic Faith, I hope you will do two things: check out an Eastern Catholic parish if there is one nearby, and try to see Christianity not as a new religion, but the continuation of the OT. What the Jews were given as prophetic truth which pointed to the Savior every time they held one of their rites, is now fulfilled truth which should testify of the Savior every time we celebrate the Eucharist or one of the holy days such as Pascha (Easter to you Westerners) or Christmas.

You are about to enter a very interesting journey, my brother. May God give you peace and enlightenment as you seek. I know it is not easy -- been there, done that. But regardless of your decision, you will learn much.

Cordially in Christ and the Blessed Virgin,

Brother Ed

 

[Singer]

Adam:

If the Catholic faith is no different than Non-Catholic, then what 's the fuss.?
It is different. The question is, where do the differences lie?

One of the differences is that the RCC meets most of the requirements
of being a cult. You've heard the issues; Mary, The ''Holy Father'' term,
the Eucharistic debate, the "saved by baptism'' topic, the ''actual body and
blood'' issue, the lack of claiming salvation, the considering of the RCC to be
the kingdom, the Bride of Christ and the Body of Christ, the Peter the Rock
issue, the imagination that Jesus was Catholic, the belief in forgiveness
of sins by priests, believing popes are infallible, infatuation with the pope,
"Hail Mary'', The Rosary......for starters !!

In my younger days I broke off a relationship with a very beautiful Catholic
girl because of her church affiliation. It took me awhile to get over it, but
after meeting up with her in later years and seeing the excess 'love' she was
carrying around, I realized that God was looking out for me in more ways
than one. By the way, she was one Catholic who told me that they were
not allowed to read the bible .......(this rule was relaxed some recently).

Sorry...off topic here.

P.S. I married a luscious Protestant girl who still looks like a girl...

Thank You, Lord !!

And you'd make a losy Catholic too with that attitude

No, I wouldn't. I'd never get thru the Instruction Phase.
I forsee you becoming Catholic within 18 months, Adam.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Singer,

You wrote, "Carson has said there's no benefit to belong to the Catholic Church".

Please, I implore you, do not bear false witness.

Living the Christian life in the fullness of the faith as a Roman Catholic is extremely beneficial for numerous reasons.

First of all, you have the existential assuredness of your salvation. When you confess your mortal sin to a priest of Jesus Christ and receive absolution, you can know infallibly that your sin is forgiven and that you are in a state of grace with the Holy Spirit indwelling your soul.

Secondly, you are equipped with innumerable tools to grow in holiness and thus perfect joy - above all of which are the sacraments, namely, the Eucharist. To receive Jesus Christ substantially and renew your baptismal covenant daily by partaking in the covenant sacrifice is a profound joy that I can only meagerly speak of on this web board. To know that all of your sins, even down to the most venial, are cleansed and that you receive an increase in the divine life when you receive the Bread of Life from the altar of Jesus Christ is a joy that I have embraced by attending the liturgy daily.

I could go on and on.. but this will suffice for now.

 

[Singer]

Adam:

Along the same lines of logic, there is no benefit for me not to be Catholic either. So what's
the difference if I join up?

Well it would be an exercise in futility if you're already saved. Carson has said below
that there is no guarantee of salvation in what he sees as the "Christ established church".

(Singer) 1) A person can be saved without ever joining a church.

(Carson) True.

(Singer) 2) Many a churchgoer can be faithful to their church but yet lost.

(Carson) True.

(Singer) 3) Even if Christ did establish a church, does membership
in it guarantee salvation?

(Carson) No.


Becoming Catholic has nothing to do with trying to merit eternal salvation before God. It's
about joining the Family of God (what Paul calls the "household of God") where salvation is
given gratis as an inheritance. It's about receiving true doctrine and efficatious life.

(Carson) You wrote, "Carson has said there's no benefit to belong to the Catholic Church".

Please, I implore you, do not bear false witness

No false witness here, Carson.
You did agree that salvation can occur without joining a church and
that the supposed "Christ established" church does not guarantee salvation.
I take this as meaning there is no benefit to belong to the Catholic
Church. Do you prefer a different synonym?

First of all, you have the existential assuredness of your salvation.

Are you kidding us?
You know a good Catholic would never admit to being saved until he
goes through purgatory and gets judged for his works and whether he
made mass on a weekly basis (of which creates a mortal sin to miss it).

You just got done saying above that membership in the RCC does not
guarantee salvation.

One of us is sleeping on the job.
See; I'm wide eyed so it must be you !!