Why are you a Baptist?

[ituttut]

Well, the Freewill Baptist churches, as a whole, believe you can be saved, and then, turn your back on the Lord, and walk back out into the world and be lost again.

There is a sect of United Baptists that also hold to this doctrine. Thye say you make "shipwreck of your faith", or something close to that.

Willis

I believe what you say is true, regarding certain Baptist segments holding a position of one being able to un-save themselves. If they have the Power to un-save their self, to me that would mean they have the power to save?

 

[ituttut]

convicted1, I agree with them in that "anyone" can walk back into the world at "anytime" given the right circumstances. But losing their salvation? No. I can't identify with that doctrine. Those who become so distraught returning to the old ways will come back. Wouldn't any "father" with compassion try to encourage his own son to come back? Of course they would. So why not our Heavenly Father?

Such confusion and we all know the Lord is not the author of confusion.

Agree, and a good analogue. I see another sure hope, and it is being sealed in. Maybe a rubber padding for those trying to breakout, and they are just bounced back.

 

[drfuss]

....You would know that this is "simply not true!" Tell me, which denomination believes you cannot lose your salvation.

You make a declaration, but fail to provide an answer. Curious minds would like to know what you know! I would like to know what you know and claim, "is simply not true!"

Tick, tock, the clock is ticking. Share your knowledge, so I can no longer live in an be uninformed world! :tear:

Denominations that do not believe you can lose your salvation include: Free-Will Baptists, Lutheran, and Assemplies of God. These denominations believe you can forfeit, but not lose your salvation. Those who do not know the difference between forfeiting and losing your salvation, should not make declarations on the subject.

 

[Amy.G]

Denominations that do not believe you can lose your salvation include: Free-Will Baptists, Lutheran, and Assemplies of God. These denominations believe you can forfeit, but not lose your salvation. Those who do not know the difference between forfeiting and losing your salvation, should not make declarations on the subject.

What do you think would cause someone to forfeit their salvation?
I believe in eternal security, but I have to admit that I've seen Christian people who seem to turn their backs on God.

 

[Bob Alkire]

Denominations that do not believe you can lose your salvation include: Free-Will Baptists, Lutheran, and Assemplies of God. These denominations believe you can forfeit, but not lose your salvation. Those who do not know the difference between forfeiting and losing your salvation, should not make declarations on the subject.

You may be correct, but on the FWB has something else to say.
http://www.nafwb.org/believe

Perseverance - We believe that there are strong grounds to hope that the saved will persevere unto the end and be saved because of the power of divine grace pledged for their support. We believe that any saved person who has sinned (whether we call him a backslider or sinner), but has a desire to repent, may do so and be restored to God's favor and fellowship. Since man, however, continues to have free choice, it is possible because of temptations and the weakness of human flesh for him to fall into the practice of sin and to make shipwreck of his faith and be lost.

Wouldn't lost be losing your salvation the same?

 

[drfuss]

You may be correct, but on the FWB has something else to say.
http://www.nafwb.org/believe

Perseverance - We believe that there are strong grounds to hope that the saved will persevere unto the end and be saved because of the power of divine grace pledged for their support. We believe that any saved person who has sinned (whether we call him a backslider or sinner), but has a desire to repent, may do so and be restored to God's favor and fellowship. Since man, however, continues to have free choice, it is possible because of temptations and the weakness of human flesh for him to fall into the practice of sin and to make shipwreck of his faith and be lost.

Wouldn't lost be losing your salvation the same?

I agree, the above certainly is not clear. I was not aware of how unclear it was in their statement of faith.

I got my information from other sources. One was a FW Baptist pastor who was very explicit about it.

Another source is from a question and answer website on FW Baptist. Here is the answer to this type of question:
"We are called Free Will Baptists because we believe in "free will, free grace, and free salvation." Because man has the free will to choose to respond to God's call and repent and be saved, we also believe man can choose to turn away from God. Was not Judas one of Christ's followers, who chose to turn away? and for a post-resurrection example, try I Timothy 1:19-20, where Paul mentions those that made "ship-wreck" of their faith. Free Will Baptists separated from Baptists because we would not subscribe to the doctrine of "eternal security" that salvation, once received, could never be forfeited, no matter what the person did. While we do not believe that committing a sin forfeits your salvation, we believe it is possible for a person to turn their back on their faith, by returning to a sinful lifestyle. It is a choice they make, not God "withdrawing their salvation." And I don't think that (or hope that it's not) this is often the case. We believe it is an important point however, because believers should not think their actions are irrelevant to their faith. As James wrote "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.""

Another of my sources is from Dr. Stephen Ashby, assistant professor of philosophy and religeous studies and Ball State University in a book entitlee "Four views on Eternal Security" published by Zondervan. He writes: Reformed (Classic) Arminians hold that rejection of faith in Christ, and that alone, removes one from union with Christ. But short of that solitary act of apostasy, the believer is to be found in union with Christ and thus stands justified in the merits of Christ alone." Page 187.

I think the information I have provided clarifies the issue, but I admit that their statement can be interpreted either way.

 

[ituttut]

]Denominations that do not believe you can lose your salvation include: Free-Will Baptists, Lutheran, and Assemplies of God. These denominations believe you can forfeit, but not lose your salvation. Those who do not know the difference between forfeiting and losing your salvation, should not make declarations on the subject.

Good point. They are similar, and there is a difference. But the end game is the same. Don't show up, and you loose.

In your understanding, are you saying they are talking about maybe just some One Night Stands along the way, but in the end all is forgiven?

I really don't know, but you may. I know some of these people and I get the impression they along with other Christians indicate they must DO WORKS to hang in there. I could be wrong, but they look to align themselves with James. I'm not saying James is wrong in his justification, but his is not mine.

 

[drfuss]

What do you think would cause someone to forfeit their salvation?
I believe in eternal security, but I have to admit that I've seen Christian people who seem to turn their backs on God.

An example could be a Christian who refuses to forgive another person, is convicted of unforgiveness, and chooses to stop believing rather than foregive.

Years ago, Charley Stanley gave an example on his website: A person becomes a Christian, serves the Lord for two years, and then is converted to become a Muslim and dies a Muslim. FW Baptist say he forfeited his salvation and Stanley said he is still saved, OSAS.

 

[drfuss]

Good point. They are similar, and there is a difference. But the end game is the same. Don't show up, and you loose.

In your understanding, are you saying they are talking about maybe just some One Night Stands along the way, but in the end all is forgiven?

I really don't know, but you may. I know some of these people and I get the impression they along with other Christians indicate they must DO WORKS to hang in there. I could be wrong, but they look to align themselves with James. I'm not saying James is wrong in his justification, but his is not mine.

Some may be misguided and believe works have something to do with salvation, but their theology says works have nothing to do with salvation.

I go to an eternal security believing church that says works have nothing to do with salvation. However, the church believes that if your have no works or no desire to do something to serve the Lord, then you are not really a True Christian.

In both cases, works have nothing to do with salvation, but are to be a result of salvation. The terminology and words are a little different, but the results are the same.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Here is a little ditty for yours allll! Arrrr......" My church is better than your church, my church is better than yours....my church is bigger, better, faster & shiner......My church is better that yours!" :laugh:

 

[Old Union Brother]

Can we say this thread is derailed?

 

[Bob Alkire]

I agree, the above certainly is not clear. I was not aware of how unclear it was in their statement of faith.

I got my information from other sources. One was a FW Baptist pastor who was very explicit about it.

Another source is from a question and answer website on FW Baptist. Here is the answer to this type of question:
"We are called Free Will Baptists because we believe in "free will, free grace, and free salvation." Because man has the free will to choose to respond to God's call and repent and be saved, we also believe man can choose to turn away from God. Was not Judas one of Christ's followers, who chose to turn away? and for a post-resurrection example, try I Timothy 1:19-20, where Paul mentions those that made "ship-wreck" of their faith. Free Will Baptists separated from Baptists because we would not subscribe to the doctrine of "eternal security" that salvation, once received, could never be forfeited, no matter what the person did. While we do not believe that committing a sin forfeits your salvation, we believe it is possible for a person to turn their back on their faith, by returning to a sinful lifestyle. It is a choice they make, not God "withdrawing their salvation." And I don't think that (or hope that it's not) this is often the case. We believe it is an important point however, because believers should not think their actions are irrelevant to their faith. As James wrote "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.""

Another of my sources is from Dr. Stephen Ashby, assistant professor of philosophy and religeous studies and Ball State University in a book entitlee "Four views on Eternal Security" published by Zondervan. He writes: Reformed (Classic) Arminians hold that rejection of faith in Christ, and that alone, removes one from union with Christ. But short of that solitary act of apostasy, the believer is to be found in union with Christ and thus stands justified in the merits of Christ alone." Page 187.

I think the information I have provided clarifies the issue, but I admit that their statement can be interpreted either way.

The bold above is what I have been taught about our FWB friends. It can happen but does not happen very often, or that is what FWB have said to me and what I've been taught. I might disagree with them but I have meet many fine Christians that are in their camp.

 

[Tom Butler]

Denominations that do not believe you can lose your salvation include: Free-Will Baptists, Lutheran, and Assemplies of God. These denominations believe you can forfeit, but not lose your salvation. Those who do not know the difference between forfeiting and losing your salvation, should not make declarations on the subject.

I'm sorta confused, so I'm asking for help.

What is the difference between losing your salvation, forefeiting your salvation, and making a shipwreck of your faith?

They are similar, and there is a difference. But the end game is the same.

So, how are losing and forefeiting similar? And what is the difference?

 

[righteousdude2]

I Think....

I'm sorta confused, so I'm asking for help.

What is the difference between losing your salvation, forefeiting your salvation, and making a shipwreck of your faith?



So, how are losing and forefeiting similar? And what is the difference?

....It's all in his semantics! :laugh:

 

[JesusFan]

An example could be a Christian who refuses to forgive another person, is convicted of unforgiveness, and chooses to stop believing rather than foregive.

Years ago, Charley Stanley gave an example on his website: A person becomes a Christian, serves the Lord for two years, and then is converted to become a Muslim and dies a Muslim. FW Baptist say he forfeited his salvation and Stanley said he is still saved, OSAS.

Actually, there ARE denominations and other groups that DO hiold that one can backslide right out of the faith and be lost!

There are mainly 2 views on this within the so called "free grace" "Arminian" churches on this...

One is that when one backslide "enough", one still has salvation, forfeits ALL earned good works , so would be the one "saved as if by Fire" by paul...

others hold IF one backslides 'enough" actually does lose salvation, as they hold that while God indeeds keeps us, we still have the free will to walk away from Him!

Depemds IF a church holds to free grace or classic Armianism on this!

 

[ituttut]

[

QUOTE=Tom Butler;1727122]I'm sorta confused, so I'm asking for help.


Originally Posted by ituttut)
They are similar, and there is a difference. But the end game is the same.


(TB) So, how are losing and forefeiting similar? And what is the difference?

I believe we can take a High Road, or a Low Road. When one forfeits they take the Low Road, but will eventually wind up as the one who took the High Road. They forfeit, and lost their chance of being OSAS while still living.

The High Road reads, Once Saved Always Saved.

The Low Roads, I'll be Saved When I Get There

 

[drfuss]

I'm sorta confused, so I'm asking for help.

What is the difference between losing your salvation, forefeiting your salvation, and making a shipwreck of your faith?



So, how are losing and forefeiting similar? And what is the difference?

From the book "4 views of Eternal Security", forfeiting your salvation involves: "rejection of faith in Christ, and that alone, removes one from union with Christ. But short of that solitary act of apostasy, the believer is to be found in union with Christ and thus stands justified in the merits of Christ alone." Page 187.

The belief of losing your salvation was first widely promoted by John Wesley in his magazine "The Wesleyian Arminian". An example of the belief of losing your salvation would be:

A Christian has been hurt be someone such as an unfaithful spouse or a son or daughter-in-law. Over the years, God has dealt with that Christian about how it is necessary to forgive that person, but the Christian, while still believing, continues to resist the conviction by the Holy Spirit to forgive. The Wesleyan Arminian believes that person is in danger of losing his salvation. (W.A. would quote Matt. 6:14,15)

Or said another way, A Christian is in danger of losing his salvation if he refuses to repent of known sins and is not remorseful for those known sins. The lose of salvation is not a result of sinning, but a long term refusal to repent, by a believing Christian, of known sins and to be remorseful. I have found no more specific criteria for sayng a Christian has lost his salvtion.

 

[drfuss]

....It's all in his semantics! :laugh:

I can see where those who believe in the doctrine of eternal security would see it that way, i.e. semantics.

On the other hand, those who don't believe in the doctrine of eternal security, consider the difference between a one point Calvinist and a five point Calvinist as only semantics.

Of course,, the practical differences in the Calvinist and Arminian belifs are definitions and terminology for all Calvinists and Arminians who believe a person must be trusting in Christ when they die to be saved.

 

[righteousdude2]

Thanks for clearing that up...

I can see where those who believe in the doctrine of eternal security would see it that way, i.e. semantics.

On the other hand, those who don't believe in the doctrine of eternal security, consider the difference between a one point Calvinist and a five point Calvinist as only semantics.

Of course,, the practical differences in the Calvinist and Arminian belifs are definitions and terminology for all Calvinists and Arminians who believe a person must be trusting in Christ when they die to be saved.

Let me see if I have this right. When I get to heaven, it will be because I only had one point to make, while you have five points to make. Seems fair to me!

If this were basketball, being down by one point seems much easier to accomplish than five. :laugh:

I'm not meaning to put down your theology, drfuss, we all must follow whatever we feel inclined to believe.

I know that my being a one-point Calvinist isn't going to keep me out of heaven any more than your being a five-point Calvinist is going to keep you out of heaven.

Looking forward to spending eternity as your neighbor in one of those special built condominiums :wavey:

 

[righteousdude2]

You Can Take Either Road....

[

I believe we can take a High Road, or a Low Road. When one forfeits they take the Low Road, but will eventually wind up as the one who took the High Road. They forfeit, and lost their chance of being OSAS while still living.

The High Road reads, Once Saved Always Saved.

The Low Roads, I'll be Saved When I Get There

...As for me, I'm on the narrow path to the narrow gate! (Matthew 7:13-14) No "high road" or "low road" stuff for me! :wavey: