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Why Are You Catholic?

neal4christ

New Member
Bob,

You got me on the oxymoron. It still seems like it to me, but I must study about it more. I still hold that Jesus' resurrected body was physical, not natural like our bodies now, but nonetheless physical.

In Christ,
Neal
 

Ray Berrian

New Member
Meercat,

You said, ' . . . I'd like to shake you up a little and let you know that in spite of the Catholic Church's "Judases, a.k.a. bad priests, bad lay-persons, religious, etc . . . '

Probably, 99% of these 'bad priest' depended on their infant baptism or receiving the wafer to save their never dying soul. When you do not have Christ within, by receiving Him personally, [John 1:12] through repentance and faith in Jesus, in the words of the Bible, ' . . . according to the true proverb, the dog is returned to his own vomit again, and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.' Hey, and these words came from your first pope in II Peter 2:2l-22.

Maybe these diocese can borrow some money for their legal work from the Vatican or Pastor Benny Hinn.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Meercat:

Neither of you apparently understand the Catholic teaching of Purgatory
Feel free to address any specific point on Purgatory that you do not think that highly-published pro-catholic scholars and authorities promote?

Five years ago, I would have been in your camp(s). But when I got tired of the differing interpretations of Scriptures each "pastor" gave out depending on which church I attended...
So are you sayhing you refused to listen to the magesterium of your non-RC church? Why refuse your church magesterium? I thought you were inclined to accept the teaching of the magesterium! What gives? your story does is not holding up.

Would you have been "more inclined" if you thought your "Baptist magesterium" was ALSO responsible for millions of deaths of Christians? Of the inquisition? Would that have helped you "restore faith in your baptist magesterium" or failing to find that among the baptists - you decided to look for that kind of history among the RCC's history?

I had to ask, "Didn't Jesus leave SOME form of authoritive teaching here for Christians to follow in his wake? If not, what was the point?
AS a Baptist you were told that God DID leave an authorotative teaching - it is the Word of God - the Bible. Surely you did not think that the Bible "Was not good enough" did you?

So how did you decide that the Bible AND your Baptist Magisterium was "not good enough"?

This can really be instructive.

I agree 100% with finding out "exactly why" a Baptist might choose non-Christian fellowships as you say you did - and also might choose RC fellowships. Better to get the facts on the table in a forum like this and deal with them head on rather than have more people slip out the back door.

In this case - I think that the more light you shine on the issue - the better off everyone will be.

In Christ,

Bob
 

Ray Berrian

New Member
If I were Roman Catholic and believed in purgatory and one of my family members died, I too, would be first to call my pastor for 'a Mass Card.' These are special prayers for the family member who has passed on, with a check written out, in many cases, to the priest. The check even if it were a large amount of money is incidental. But to think that a priest's prayers have any impact with the Lord of Divine justice after death, is completely off the scope of Biblical and Christian thinking. Does not Romans 8:33 say, 'It is God Who justifies' the sinner, once for all. [vs.30 & I Corinthians 15:3 & I John 2:2 & Hebrews 10:10] 'Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect.' [Romans 8:33a] The Lord justifies souls, not the prayers of any human, though a godly person.

Knowing the suffering of those who allegedly go to Purgatory for 'a buff up job' in order to come up to a perfection worthy of Heaven, it would make me wonder how many prayers have to be offered and how many checks written until I would be assured that my loved one finally made the grade. I do not know of any spiritual potentate on earth who can guarantee that enough prayers have been offered to Christ.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
In the RCC you are not considered to be a good family member if you do not try to earn a Plenary indulgece for their loved one - rather than leaven them where the RCC has put them after death.

In Christ,

Bob
 

neal4christ

New Member
Thank-you, Bob and Ray, for hijacking my thread and turning it into another one of your "let me see how much mud I can sling at the Catholic Church" threads. You really need a new hobby besides Catholic bashing.

In Christ,
Neal
 

Ray Berrian

New Member
nealforChrist,

I don't think we are bashing people but a system of theology. If we are wrong in our explanation, please correct us. But remember we only entertain things that are backed up with Scripture. We will, however, listen to your traditions and myths if your church has any to offer up for our consideration.
 

BBNewton

New Member
Hi all,

This is Canon V of the Justification segment of the Council of Trent:

CANON V.-If any one saith, that, since Adam's sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema.
http://www.cfpeople.org/Apologetics/page51a038.html

The RCC apparently framed this particular condemnation for Luther, Calvin, and the Protestants. Is this still the official stance of the RCC reguarding Reformed folks like me?
 

Ray Berrian

New Member
Several Roman Catholics have given witness on this board that there is such a truth as justification before God. Even Carson Weber from Steubinville, Ohio confirmed this. They believe when a man is justified before God, it only takes one mortal sin to destroy this relationship with the Lord God. So speaking from reality it is possible for a Catholic to commit---say from 1-100 mortal sins over a long life-span. My question is does your bishop then believe that God ministers justification 100 times in the life of just one person? If you Catholic laity believe this-you should see the 'red flag' that most other Christians see.

Christians who are orthodox in Christian theology know that a sinner can only be justified one time in a whole life time. [Romans 5:1 & Romans 8:29-30]

Any other ritual is merely trying to work your way to Heaven.

:(

Dr. Berrian
 

neal4christ

New Member
We will, however, listen to your traditions and myths if your church has any to offer up for our consideration.
I am not Catholic, Dr., but a Baptist. I have seen adequate information from Scripture given by Catholics to make me pause and think. Though you say you are against a system, you simply perpetuate misconceptions of what Catholics believe and teach, much like every other Protestant I know. And this ticks me off, greatly.

In Christ,
Neal
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Neal - you are in the perfect position to defend your catholic faith expertly - since while you are a Baptist still - you presumably have some "Value left" for "sola scriptura" and for "valid exegesis".

This means that the RCC values YOU find to hold up to the Word of God - will be best related by you to other non-RC (such as Ray and myself).

If you had sunk all the way into the dark ages of the RCC - you would doubtless abandon exegetical approaches to the word of God and we would have lost that valuable common ground of "sola scriptura" and "sound exegesis" by which you could reach us.

But as it is - you claim to still be Baptist. So I say you are in the ideal position to proclaim Cataholicism "sola scriptura" and with "sound exegesis" so that the catholic views of scripture are presented in their best Baptist-like form.

Don't complain about that bridge - rather give your views in terms of "sola scriptura" give them with "sound compelling exegetical attention to the text".

The floor is yours.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by neal4christ:
Thank-you, Bob and Ray, for hijacking my thread and turning it into another one of your "let me see how much mud I can sling at the Catholic Church" threads. You really need a new hobby besides Catholic bashing.
You need a new hobby other than ignoring the point and bashing any post unfavorable at all to the RCC.

Why not try the approach of "quoting something" that I said that you believe I do NOT have an RC source PROMOTING? You "Claim" that such is the case in your post - now "show it" pick something.

Simply accusing "is the easy part" - show something.

In Christ,

Bob
 

Ray Berrian

New Member
nealforChrist,

On page four of this topic in my first post, I said if I had misrepresented the Catholic view, to please set Bob and I straight. If Catholics do not have the vitality or understanding to explain the details of Purgatory to us then they need to speak with their bishop.

Those who kneelforChrist will expel this concept as not of God. At death Christians go immediately into the Presence of the Lord, [Philippians 1:23 & II Cor. 5:8 because Christ died for all of our sins and not just past sins. [I Corinthians 15:3]

And if you as a Baptist get 'ticked off' that is a condition in your soul, not mine. To me a true Baptist would not find any problem with what I have just said about Heaven being our home when we leave this life.

If someone is Catholic and is troubled it may be because the Holy Spirit is at work in their hearts, because some men's ideas do go against the Divine words coming from Jesus. No one can argue against Scripture, if they are wise.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Neal - is your question on Purgatory? Are you comfortable claiming that the RC scholars do not describe it as a place of torment, suffering, payment for sin?

What do you doubt as coming from the RCC itself?

In Christ,

Bob
 
F

frozencell

Guest
The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031).

The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.
It is not a place of torment, but of waiting(in a sense). While you may have a problem with the last sentence of thssi in particular, is there not consequences for sin, even that may have continued longer had we not died?

When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5).

Augustine said, in The City of God, that "temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment." It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59).
Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage. Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.
What happens if you have lived your whole life for the glory of God, but an indiscretion, say lying about something at work, takes place and you die 5 seconds later? Lying is a sin and all sin taints the soul. If a tainted soul cannot enter heaven then what happens if not Purgatory?
I am truly asking for Christian response, not being called a heretic or a waste of time, etc.
 

neal4christ

New Member
This means that the RCC values YOU find to hold up to the Word of God - will be best related by you to other non-RC (such as Ray and myself).
Ray and Bob,

I am not discussing purgatory. That was not what I have a problem with. It is your attitudes!

Bob,

Show me where I EVER said that I have come to a conclusion on RCC teachings. I said I "pause and think," something you should do before you post.

Bob, your unChristlike attitude and unloving spirit are enough to turn me off to anything you say. I am glad you are not my only witness for Christ.

And why do you want to start the sola Scriptura bit? Why does everything have to be on YOUR terms? And this is funny, coming from someone who considers other documents outside the Scriptures for guidance in faith.

And please, Bob, show me where I have said anything about Purgatory.

You need to learn how to exercise a little love and a lot less rudeness in your posts and people may actually take you serious. Until then, to me you are just a "noisy gong" and a "clanging cymbal" (I Cor. 13:1).

In Christ,
Neal

P.S. My objection was not about purgatory. It was the fact that you both HIJACKED my thread and began yet another round of Catholic bashing. Both of you ASSUMED something that was not true and went on the attack again, rather than 'fess up and be men enough to admit you did hijack this thread. That's okay, both of you show me all I need to see in the way you act here. And DR., why not take up SDA bashing? At least you and Bob would have plenty to say to one another.
 

Living4Him

New Member
Peace of Christ.

My IFB sister believes in the concept of purgatory, yet she was not aware that her concept is what the Catholic Church means by purgatory. She believes that when a Christian dies they have to go through final purification because "nothing unclean can enter Heaven." I told her that this was purgatory. She was under the wrong assumption that Catholics taught purgatory is a place where everyone who dies goes and from there it is determined who goes to Heavven or Hell.
 

Ray Berrian

New Member
NealforChrist,

You said, 'And DR., why not take up SDA bashing?'

Take another look at the TOPIC. "Why Are You Catholic?" According to this Roman Catholicism is under the microscope for a closer look. We make knowledgeable declarations on what we know to be the truth. If it is wrong, then Catholics should be on this like 'flies in route to scales on a fish cleaning board.' On other topics I have heard that Catholics believe that this Purgatory will not be 'a cake walk' but they will undergo punishment for their misbehavior.

Philippians 1:21,23 & II Corinthians 5:8 shouts in the ears of all Christians that Purgatory is a doctrine taught by the Cardinals to the gullible, simple and uneducated people of the Dark Ages. We are living in a resplendent day of enlightenment even in the matter of spiritual exegesis in our desire to grow in the faith.

When trusting our souls to either St. Augustine or Jesus we non-Catholics generally would much rather stand next to our Lord's testimony that is directly from the Godhead and His holy apostles.

As to Seventh Day Adventism, at least for me, in talking with another knowledgeable Adventist years ago, I found that we had so much in common. I have no problem if these good people worship on the Sabbath. In fact, in the coming Kingdom Age on earth, Jesus our Messiah/Savior will mandate worship on the sabbath as recorded at least four times in Ezekiel chapter forty-six. The vision of the Temple is seen by Ezekiel in chapter forty and speaks of 'the inner court, the inner Temple [41:15], the House, my sanctuary', in every chapter from 40-48.

If you want to place Adventist's under a spotlight feel free to do so; not that I have any official authority in this matter at all.
 

neal4christ

New Member
Take another look at the TOPIC. "Why Are You Catholic?"


And you as well, Dr. See, the question presupposes that the person responding is Catholic. Are you? Then why did you post at all in this thread? This thread is not a microscope for studying Catholicism. I want to know why a person has decided to be a Catholic, not to debate them.

So, I will reiterate, you would do well to admit you hijacked the thread and then respectfully start your own thread examining Catholic beliefs. That is not the purpose of this one.

Thank-you.

In Christ,
Neal
 

Meercat

New Member
I hope it is not too late to share my experience as to why I am Catholic. Simply put, I wanted to "build my house on the Rock" and not on sand. Someone on this thread made a legitimate comment that to some extent, our decisions are based on "private judgement". I agree. However, I do not extend my private judgment to Scripture entirely. There must have been a Church who knew and were given the understanding of Sacred Scripture by the Holy Spirit and who did "not lean on their own understanding" in order to obey the will of God and not that of man." I sincerily hope that no Baptist on this forum thinks I am accusing him or her of doing any of the above. I believe all of you are sincere in your faith and I admire you because of the strenghth of your convictions and even rejoice in the issues in which we have in common. I joined this forum to be part of a group of people who are on fire for the love of God and Truth and even though we see the Truth differently, the love of God that we both have in common can certainly rub off on each other! Make no mistake, I am not here to deceive anyone OR try and convert anyone to the Catholic Faith, but only to educate and explain any misunderstandings as pertains to the Catholic Church that many non-Catholics have even to this day.
But, why AM I Catholic? - I got sick of all the differing interpretations of how to live out the Bible by the differing opinions of what Scripture means by so many pastors however well-meaning. I'll be glad to explain more if any one is really curious.

However, I wish to make it known that I respect all those who differ from my "opinions" and thoughts anyway. - With the love of Christ, - Meercat

ps. Neal- I appreciate your genuine openness to understand things that you have more than likely taught to oppose.

To BobRyan and RayBerrian-

Relax, no one is here to "strong-arm" you, we wish to only explain where we come from and not put either of you or like-minded people down so please be a little more kind. It makes communicating among ourselves much easier and God Bless!!!
 
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